Gay Cake Controversy!

OldNotWIse · 08-07-2014 12:13pm

jimgoose wrote: »

I want Gay Cake. It sounds delightfully avant-garde, dearie! :pac:

I really fancy a pulled pork Muslim cake

Pumpkinseeds · 08-07-2014 12:15pm

Slow news day? The gays who ordered the cake get publicity for being discriminated against. The bakery gets publicity for being good catholics, or whatever their religion is. Everyone's a winner. But seriously folks, it's a cake, a fricking cake. Nothing important happening in the world, really, nothing at all

Azwaldo55 · 08-07-2014 12:18pm

floggg wrote: »

The bakery already makes and decorates cakes to order. You aren't asking them to do anything they don't already do.

The same laws apply to Muslim restaurants too it requires them to sell their existed goods or services to all on equal terms (same as bakers) - which means serving women and non-Muslims.

It wouldn't require them to serve pork, just as it wouldn't require a baker to start selling pride flags to gay people.

The bakers are devout Christians and they don't want to bake a gay wedding cake because of their deeply held religious views. The LGBT activists are harassing them. They should be told to f*ck off. I don't agree with the Christian bakers' views but I believe that they should be free to do business with whomever they please.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 12:18pm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Slow news day? The gays who ordered the cake get publicity for being discriminated against. The bakery gets publicity for being good catholics, or whatever their religion is. Everyone's a winner. But seriously folks, it's a cake, a fricking cake. Nothing important happening in the world, really, nothing at all

Stephen Nolan devoted the first hour of his programme on Radio Ulster this morning to the subject. Nothing about flegs or Garth Brooks which was a blessed relief.

The name of the shop is actually from the Bible as explained in the video in this article.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/ashers-baking-company-faces-court-for-refusing-order-for-gay-marriage-cake-30412923.html

jimgoose · 08-07-2014 12:20pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I really fancy a pulled pork Muslim cake

I'll Passover on that one.

wow sierra · 08-07-2014 12:21pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

A black family is not a political campaign.

A gay person or family is not a political campaign.

A campaign poster/cake for gay marriage is a political campaign.

A business should have the right to decline business it doesn't want, in particular for political campaigns it doesn't wish to be involved in.

I think that's the issue - they didn't refuse to bake a cake for an individual Gay wedding, that would be different. There was a story recently about an Irish actor who was the Poster boy (literally on all their posters) for UKIP in an Anti Immigration campaign. Now personally if I owned a bakery I wouldn't want my Bakery name on a UKIP anti immigration propaganda cake. I don't think it would be right to prosecute me for refusing.

osarusan · 08-07-2014 12:22pm

floggg wrote: »

If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?

floggg wrote: »

Would you also support their right to refuse black people on grounds of their race?

floggg wrote: »

So if the only wanted to be associated with a white market that's fine?

floggg wrote: »

And if they declined to serve black customers is that ok with you to?

Will you stop with all these strawman arguments?

Donkey Oaty · 08-07-2014 12:24pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The name of the shop is actually from the Bible as explained in the video in this article.

Asher sold his brother into slavery.

This gets worse and worse.

--LOS-- · 08-07-2014 12:25pm

I see stories like this pop up all the time, I don't really understand the response in this thread, I think the people who ordered the cake had every right to stand up for themselves. What do those shop owners think of people who are christian and gay eh? Some opinions are not respectable and you cannot just behave the way you like and expect people to respect your opinion, that's nonsense.

gozunda · 08-07-2014 12:26pm

That's it ... Cake wars - you can forget about the Troubles!

Edit:
The Glorious Cake
The Battle of the Cake
The Baking Season
The Cake Commision
....

08-07-2014 12:26pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

I see stories like this pop up all the time, I don't really understand the response in this thread, I think the people who ordered the cake had every right to stand up for themselves. What do those shop owners think of people who are christian and gay eh? Some opinions are not respectable and you cannot just behave the way you like and expect people to respect your opinion, that's nonsense.

It was an activist asking for a political cake.

Not to mention it doesn't matter if you have disagreeable opinions, I think a private business should still have basic right of refusal.

mackerski · 08-07-2014 12:29pm

On the one hand it seems to me that any business creating decorated cakes has to have some discretion in the material they will put out. The earlier comments about copyright infringement are spot on (or would be, assuming the bakery always declines to produce infringing material when asked). Similarly, although willy-shaped cakes wouldn't offend me personally, I don't see how you can force any bakery to create one.

But let's get away from this one incident and what may be indeed be a mischievous stunt calculated to provoke a confrontation. In the video it was remarked on about how many key staff members are Christians and the Christian ethos of the bakery was played up. Am I wrong to conclude that this ethos could impact the hiring process? Perhaps all staff are Christians. Maybe they are even all a particular denomination of Christian. That might be reasonable for a priesthood or a branch of the Veritas bookshop, but my understanding of employment law suggests that vertically integrating a bakery with religion could be a bit dodgy. It wasn't OK for shipyards, so why a bakery?

08-07-2014 12:34pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

What do those shop owners think of people who are christian and gay eh?

Well if the Gay Christian claims to be part of a denomination that expressly forbids homosexuality then most people would probably think that they're engaging in some pretty serious cognitive dissonance.

perfectblue · 08-07-2014 12:34pm

if a gay couple came in and asked for a regular bland-tasting dry sponge with some hideous floral motif in icing (you know, like most heterosexual couples have at weddings), would the bakery go ahead with the order? if the couple wanted two men as cake toppers? i get that the bakery didn't want to put a specific message on the cake, but at what point would they have been ok with making the cake, and at what point would they have refused? i think that's the question here.
you can of course refuse to decorate a cake a certain way for a number of reasons (copyright usually a big one; good taste another). and you can of course hold all sorts of personal beliefs, discriminatory or otherwise. but the law is usually quite clear on what BUSINESSES are allowed to do, and discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation is not allowed.
if a straight couple came in and asked for this same cake, i imagine the bakery still would have refused. in this case, it would be hard to say the business was discriminating against its customers.

floggg · 08-07-2014 12:34pm

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The bakers are devout Christians and they don't want to bake a gay wedding cake because of their deeply held religious views. The LGBT activists are harassing them. They should be told to f*ck off. I don't agree with the Christian bakers' views but I believe that they should be free to do business with whomever they please.

It that's your view that's your view. I assume you apply that logic to all minority groups and protected classes - race, sex, religion, gender, marital status etc.?

However that sort of freedom to discriminate leads to dark places - segregation, refusal of houses, refusal of employment etc.

Of all places, it's hard to see how unchecked racist/sectarian discrimination could have drastic consequences in the north.

So while it's all well and good for a majority group to see they should have freedom to do business with whoever you like, when you are in a minority and have no protection from this sort of thing you can soon find yourself excluded from or discriminated against many aspects of life. We have seen that sort of thing all too often.

So while some individual results might not always sit well with me I am very glad those laws are there.

--LOS-- · 08-07-2014 12:34pm

bluewolf wrote: »

It was an activist asking for a political cake.

Not to mention it doesn't matter if you have disagreeable opinions, I think a private business should still have basic right of refusal.

Ye I'm fully aware of the story. They may claim they're not homophobic and it's simply against their beliefs, religion is not an excuse in my eyes though. I would rather whoever was looking for the cake actually just speak to the owners in person, rather than sending a messenger in the form of the equality commission, but I'm guessing they deal with this thing a little too often.

They're a private business, they can pick and choose custom if they like, doesn't make it right. It's not about being pc, it's about standing up for yourself. If the customer has no issue giving business to a company that has differing views to them, why should the business.

kunst nugget · 08-07-2014 12:35pm

floggg wrote: »

The bakery already makes and decorates cakes to order. You aren't asking them to do anything they don't already do.

The same laws apply to Muslim restaurants too it requires them to sell their existed goods or services to all on equal terms (same as bakers) - which means serving women and non-Muslims.

It wouldn't require them to serve pork, just as it wouldn't require a baker to start selling pride flags to gay people.

I haven't been able to watch the video so correct me if anything I say is incorrect but it's not really comparing like for like as such. If they had previously been making cakes that had slogans that ran counter to their religious beliefs ('Happy Pre-marital Sex, Amy!) to straight people but then refused to do the same for gay people then that's obvious discrimination.

In principle, I support the right to let them run their business based on their religious beliefs if they apply those ideals strictly to ALL members of society. I also support people boycotting business if they are run at odds to their own principles. But I get a sense of entrapment from this and people trying to whip up a internet hate mob on this bakery here.

Personally, I wouldn't shop there based on their beliefs but then I wouldn't get myself in a frenzy over it either. Things like this harden stances on both sides and don't do anyone any good imo.

K-9 · 08-07-2014 12:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

Now I know which bakery to avoid in that neck of the woods. WTF is a bakery run on Christian values anyway?

Doesn't make fairy cakes or something.

osarusan · 08-07-2014 12:37pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

If the customer has no issue giving business to a company that has differing views to them, why should the business.

I would guess that the very reason the company got their business in the first place, was because it had differing views to them.

_Redzer_ · 08-07-2014 12:37pm

Can't wait until I get to open my Muslim bakery!

Seriously, a religious bakery? How retarded. Just bake the fúcking cake

08-07-2014 12:37pm

mackerski wrote: »

But let's get away from this one incident and what may be indeed be a mischievous stunt calculated to provoke a confrontation. In the video it was remarked on about how many key staff members are Christians and the Christian ethos of the bakery was played up. Am I wrong to conclude that this ethos could impact the hiring process? Perhaps all staff are Christians. Maybe they are even all a particular denomination of Christian. That might be reasonable for a priesthood or a branch of the Veritas bookshop, but my understanding of employment law suggests that vertically integrating a bakery with religion could be a bit dodgy. It wasn't OK for shipyards, so why a bakery?

Bakeries aren't massive corporations usually and small companies tend to have a high proportion of workers who are from the same family or move in similar circles. If a law is used to address that I think it's going a little too far.

--LOS-- · 08-07-2014 12:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if the Gay Christian claims to be part of a denomination that expressly forbids homosexuality then most people would probably think that they're engaging in some pretty serious cognitive dissonance.

not necessarily, just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they agree with everything that religion/belief/whatever says. However way they reconcile it is on them, not something I could necessarily do. But it's not like you can't be gay and christian.

08-07-2014 12:40pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

Ye I'm fully aware of the story. They may claim they're not homophobic and it's simply against their beliefs, religion is not an excuse in my eyes though.

Are political beliefs justification?

I would rather whoever was looking for the cake actually just speak to the owners in person, rather than sending a messenger in the form of the equality commission, but I'm guessing they deal with this thing a little too often.

If you go looking for something I'm sure it's likely to come across it a bit more.

They're a private business, they can pick and choose custom if they like, doesn't make it right.

Not always.

It's not about being pc, it's about standing up for yourself.

It's about kicking up a fuss in this case.

If the customer has no issue giving business to a company that has differing views to them, why should the business.

Because not all people are the same?

floggg · 08-07-2014 12:41pm

osarusan wrote: »

Will you stop with all these strawman arguments?

It's not a straw man argument at all.

I'm asking a question - I want to understand peoples views. Do they object to all equality legislation, or just this ground.

And I don't see any difference in discrimination on grounds of sex, sexual orientation, race, religion etc.

Neither does the legislation which is being invoked here. They are all covered.

For clarity - I'm not talking about this specific cake and it's political message. I'm talking about refusal of service on the protected ground of sexual orientation.

P_1 · 08-07-2014 12:43pm

floggg wrote: »

It's not a straw man argument at all.

I'm asking a question - I want to understand peoples views. Do they object to all equality legislation, or just this ground.

And I don't see any difference in discrimination on grounds of sex, sexual orientation, race, religion etc.

Neither does the legislation which is being invoked here. They are all covered.

For clarity - I'm not talking about this specific cake and it's political message. I'm talking about refusal of service on the protected ground of sexual orientation.

It's different to blatant racism as you have two protected statuses (religion and sexuality) coming into conflict. Yes people have the right to not be discriminated on based on their sexuality but people also have the right to freely express their religion.

08-07-2014 12:43pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

not necessarily, just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they agree with everything that religion/belief/whatever says. However way they reconcile it is on them, not something I could necessarily do. But it's not like you can't be gay and christian.

Depends on what denomination. Gay Catholics are engaging in cognitive dissonance, as are gays in most major religions in Northern Ireland. It's akin to me calling myself a communist but being in favour of free markets and not wanting a centrally-planned economy or government involvement in the provision of any services. I can still call myself a communist if I want, doesn't make it true.

Buzz Killington the third · 08-07-2014 12:47pm

I'm gonna order a cake with a picture of Muhammad on it!

floggg · 08-07-2014 12:48pm

P_1 wrote: »

It's different to blatant racism as you have two protected statuses (religion and sexuality) coming into conflict. Yes people have the right to not be discriminated on based on their sexuality but people also have the right to freely express their religion.

Racism is often masked in religious tones. Many Christians thought slavery and segregation were mandated by the bible.

Many Christians also believe women are not entitled to the same freedoms and service as men.

Many Muslims would take that further and think they shouldn't be allowed do very much of anything without a man beside them.

Under equality law, if you open a business and offer your services to the public, you must park your religious/racial/misognistic objections at home and serve all customers equally.

Your religion is a private matter and cannot justify discrimination in the public realm.

So there isn't actually any principled distinction - if you're racist views are rooted in religion, it still doesn't make a difference and you must serve black or Chinese customers equally. It's the exact same position as if you're homophobia is rooted in religion.

old hippy · 08-07-2014 12:55pm

bluewolf wrote: »

It was an activist asking for a political cake.

Not to mention it doesn't matter if you have disagreeable opinions, I think a private business should still have basic right of refusal.

Cakes for all!

Except maybe gays, Travellers, disabled folk, Jews, Muslims, Zimbabweans etc etc etc

Scarlet42 · 08-07-2014 12:56pm

was it a fruit cake they wanted?

hmmm .. makes me wonder did the person who ordered the cake in the first place know that the owners had religious ideas ... wonder how many communion cakes are made in Sandy Row bakeries? or how many LOL cakes are made in Andytown bakeries?

do people not watch those "Great Bakeoff" shows? most of the men on them are gay ....place is falling down with gay bakers! and they pick the this one!

08-07-2014 12:58pm

old hippy wrote: »

Cakes for all!

Except maybe gays, Travellers, disabled folk, Jews, Muslims, Zimbabweans etc etc etc

Link to the bakery refusing each of those please.

_Redzer_ · 08-07-2014 1:00pm

The religious thing is bollox though.

I'm a gay atheist, and if you wanted a cake with Jesus on it or some other religious thing, I wouldn't have any problem with it. It's a cake ffs.

Why are the religious so precious about these things, yet someone like me would easily be tolerant to their needs? As I said, I could make them a fine Jesus cake without a problem, even though it goes against what I believe.

yoke · 08-07-2014 1:01pm

Businesses cannot be allowed to decide who they do business with - the state should decide that.

Otherwise, how would you feel if a shop refused to sell you an item on display, but sold it to someone else who wanted it?

"sorry, but you cannot buy that cake on display. that other random person there, yeah he can buy it"

Businesses are given tax breaks and all kinds of support by the state, and they must be forced to follow it's laws and support the state even if it conflicts with someones stupid religious beliefs.

The Diabolical Monocle · 08-07-2014 1:01pm

What's this offer and acceptance nonsense.

I demand you make me a cake now.

P_1 · 08-07-2014 1:03pm

floggg wrote: »

Racism is often masked in religious tones. Many Christians thought slavery and segregation were mandated by the bible.

Many Christians also believe women are not entitled to the same freedoms and service as men.

Many Muslims would take that further and think they shouldn't be allowed do very much of anything without a man beside them.

Under equality law, if you open a business and offer your services to the public, you must park your religious/racial/misognistic objections at home and serve all customers equally.

Your religion is a private matter and cannot justify discrimination in the public realm.

So there isn't actually any principled distinction - if you're racist views are rooted in religion, it still doesn't make a difference and you must serve black or Chinese customers equally. It's the exact same position as if you're homophobia is rooted in religion.

Ok fair enough lets look at it from another angle. If somebody asked you to bake a cake for an arranged marriage would you feel comfortable in doing so?

kunst nugget · 08-07-2014 1:05pm

yoke wrote: »

Businesses cannot be allowed to decide who they do business with - the state should decide that.

Otherwise, how would you feel if a shop refused to sell you an item on display, but sold it to someone else who wanted it?

"sorry, but you cannot buy that cake on display. that other random person there, yeah he can buy it"

Businesses are given tax breaks and all kinds of support by the state, and they must be forced to follow it's laws and support the state even if it conflicts with someones stupid religious beliefs.

It's not like that in this instance. It's not like they had a 'We support Gay Marriage' cake on display and then refused to sell it to a gay person. A person ordered a cake and then was told the bakers wouldn't make the cake based on their religious beliefs.

FTA69 · 08-07-2014 1:05pm

They didn't refuse to bake the cake because the customer was gay but because it carried a political message.

Are they still bigoted ignorant eejits on this particular matter? Yes. Should they be criminalised for not making an explicitly political cake? No.

yoke · 08-07-2014 1:10pm

bluewolf wrote: »

It was an activist asking for a political cake.

Not to mention it doesn't matter if you have disagreeable opinions, I think a private business should still have basic right of refusal.

So what if it was an activist asking for a political cake?

Would the making of the cake be considered producing illegal goods? - if yes, then the business should refuse (eg. copyright infringement stuff, etc.).
Otherwise, the business has no business deciding what the customer can and can't order.
If they advertise "custom messages on cakes" then they have no right to decide what custom messages they will do, and what they wont, as long as the messages aren't illegal.

A private business should have right of refusal? Then you must support landlords that say "no gay couples please" or jobs which say "no foreigners, blacks, travellers, need apply".

animaal · 08-07-2014 1:11pm

yoke wrote: »

Businesses cannot be allowed to decide who they do business with - the state should decide that.

Ah, thank God for big Government.

I should go straight to the Assets Modelling Agency web page to find the star for my next soft-core porn shoot. The state will force them to participate.

dxhound2005 · 08-07-2014 1:11pm

FTA69 wrote: »

They didn't refuse to bake the cake because the customer was gay but because it carried a political message.

Are they still bigoted ignorant eejits on this particular matter? Yes. Should they be criminalised for not making an explicitly political cake? No.

If you think they are eejits then the majority in the North are eejits as are the majority of their politicians. And maybe after the referendum the majority in the Republic will be proved eejits.

That's not a good way to see their point of view, in what is a contentious issue in many countries.

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 1:13pm

floggg wrote: »

And if they declined to serve black customers is that ok with you to?

No. As I've already said.

It would also be wrong (as I've said) to decline to serve a person because they are gay.

Annasopra · 08-07-2014 1:14pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you think they are eejits then the majority in the North are eejits as are the majority of their politicians. And maybe after the referendum the majority in the Republic will be proved eejits.

That's not a good way to see their point of view, in what is a contentious issue in many countries.

Actually I dont think we need to wait til a referendum.

I think if such a case happened here they could potentially be in breach of the Equal Status Acts.

FTA69 · 08-07-2014 1:14pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you think they are eejits then the majority in the North are eejits as are the majority of their politicians. And maybe after the referendum the majority in the Republic will be proved eejits.

That's not a good way to see their point of view, in what is a contentious issue in many countries.

I said "eejits on this particular matter", I don't think every religious person is a fool but I do think that homophobia based on religion is silly and wrong.

Medusa22 · 08-07-2014 1:14pm

It is a tricky one. I just had a civil partnership so I am definitely not unbiased. On the one hand I believe that people should have the right to refuse custom, especially if it goes against their beliefs. However, on the other hand I can't help but think that they are a bunch of tools for having those beliefs in the first place and how annoyed I'd be if I wanted to have a cake made supporting gay marriage and was refused. For me, it is not a political issue, if you are against gay marriage, I cannot see any reason for it other than you must be homophobic.

Therefore, if you refuse to make a cake that supports gay marriage you must be homophobic, and as these people are religious and intolerant of gay people then they must be.

I think that people should try to imagine it this way, what if this was a bakery in the deep south in America in the 1960s, and a black person came into a bakery and asked to have a cake made to support the civil rights of african-americans but the baker refused because it went against his/ her beliefs. Of course you can say that the person does not want to support a political agenda but you know that the person must be racist or unwilling to be seen to support civil rights due to the opinions of other racists.

Annasopra · 08-07-2014 1:16pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. As I've already said.

It would also be wrong (as I've said) to decline to serve a person because they are gay.

So if they ordered a cake saying congratulations on your Civil Partnership and it was refused?

super_furry · 08-07-2014 1:17pm

If a gay couple run a bakery would they be in the same position if they refused to make a cake specifically designed to support no changes to the current traditional marriage status? A 'keep marriage between a man and women' style cake.

08-07-2014 1:19pm

old hippy wrote: »

Cakes for all!

Except maybe gays, Travellers, disabled folk, Jews, Muslims, Zimbabweans etc etc etc

And if a gay-run bakery wanted to refuse a cake to christians who wanted an anti gay marriage message? THey should just stfu yea?

osarusan · 08-07-2014 1:19pm

super_furry wrote: »

If a gay couple run a bakery would they be in the same position if they refused to make a cake specifically designed to support no changes to the current traditional marriage status?

indeed, if somebody from the Iona institute went into a bakery run by a homosexual and asked them to make a cake saying 'vote no to gay marriage', what would the response be on here?

yoke · 08-07-2014 1:23pm

kunst nugget wrote: »

It's not like that in this instance. It's not like they had a 'We support Gay Marriage' cake on display and then refused to sell it to a gay person. A person ordered a cake and then was told the bakers wouldn't make the cake based on their religious beliefs.

So are they saying that they couldn't find a single baker employed by the bakery who would agree to make the cake, because all the bakers employed by them refused to do so based on their own individual religious beliefs?

ie. they were unable to bake the specified cake due to lack of resources?

To me it appears more like the management of the bakery did not agree with the message on the cake, and hence refused to create it.

It's a dangerous road to go down - pretty soon you'll have leaflet companies deciding what you can and can't print on leaflets, TV companies deciding what political views you can express on air, etc.

Donkey Oaty · 08-07-2014 1:24pm

osarusan wrote: »

indeed, if somebody from the Iona institute went into a bakery run by a homosexual and asked them to make a cake saying 'vote no to gay marriage', what would the response be on here?

I don't know, but there would probably be some reference to Muslims or the civil rights movement in 1960s America.

Gay Cake Controversy!

Comments