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Can we kill Irish once and for all

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Comments

  • #362
    shane7218
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭shane7218


    uch wrote: »
    No it doesn't, trust me

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/the_irish_education_system/exemption_from_irish.html


  • #363
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    shane7218 wrote: »
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/the_irish_education_system/exemption_from_irish.html

    From that link "This is a matter for each individual college."

    21/25



  • #364
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Then what's the problem with making it optional.

    Do you really want to go over that argument again?
    Also, why would the fact that you dont fail the LC if you fail Irish make making Irish optional a more attractive proposal?


  • #365
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    GaelMise wrote: »
    Do you really want to go over that argument again?
    Also, why would the fact that you dont fail the LC if you fail Irish make making Irish optional a more attractive proposal?
    Yes. It is the topic after all.


  • #366
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    In fairness lads I think the OP original argument was that why should Irish hold any weight when it's taught so bad.

    21/25



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  • #367
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    A simple question: what would be *wrong* about making Irish optional for the LC? I just want a reasonable response to that.


  • #368
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    A simple question: what would be *wrong* about making Irish optional for the LC? I just want a reasonable response to that.

    It's the same question as "what would be wrong with making English optional" or Maths and so on

    21/25



  • #369
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    uch wrote: »
    It's the same question as "what would be wrong with making English optional" or Maths and so on

    So no answer then? English and Maths are optional. Let's make Irish the same.


  • #370
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    uch wrote: »
    It's the same question as "what would be wrong with making English optional" or Maths and so on

    OK? And the answer to that is?


  • #371
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So no answer then? English and Maths are optional. Let's make Irish the same.

    Not at all, I'm in the change nothing camp, we're not one of the best educated population's in Europe for nothing

    21/25



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  • #372
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    uch wrote: »
    Not at all, I'm in the change nothing camp, we're not one of the best educated population's in Europe for nothing

    I'll ask again: what would be *wrong* about making Irish optional for LC?


  • #373
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    uch wrote: »
    Not at all, I'm in the change nothing camp, we're not one of the best educated population's in Europe for nothing

    Why is that relevant to Irish?


  • #374
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    I'll ask again: what would be *wrong* about making Irish optional for LC?

    there'd be nothing "wrong" in my opinion, but it wouldn't be "Right" in my opinion either to drop it

    21/25



  • #375
    shane7218
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭shane7218


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Why is that relevant to Irish?

    He did a diploma in Irish Grammer. I think that might explain his position :rolleyes:


  • #376
    shane7218
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭shane7218


    uch wrote: »
    there'd be nothing "wrong" in my opinion, but it wouldn't be "Right" in my opinion either to drop it


    So removing Irish is a paradox ?


  • #377
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    shane7218 wrote: »
    He did a diploma in Irish Grammer. I think that might explain his position :rolleyes:

    He said he wants to change nothing because our education system is one of the best in Europe. That's true but how would making Irish optional change that?

    Surely it would improve our education system?


  • #378
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    uch wrote: »
    there'd be nothing "wrong" in my opinion, but it wouldn't be "Right" in my opinion either to drop it

    No one's suggesting it should be dropped altogether. But I'm in favour of people having the choice to drop it, should they wish to.

    I find it strange that in general, so many movements these days move to popular, empowering arguments of 'pro-choice' or 'people's preference has no bearing on me, why would I care', but in the case of Irish, it must be kept compulsory... or else *insert emotional/patriotic worst-case scenario*.


  • #379
    shane7218
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭shane7218


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    He said he wants to change nothing because our education system is one of the best in Europe. That's true but how would making Irish optional change that?

    Surely it would improve our education system?


    As far as I'm concerned it would improve it as people could choose another subject that INTERESTS them and as a result learn more, and improve grades across the board


  • #380
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    No one's suggesting it should be dropped altogether. But I'm in favour of people having the choice to drop it, should they wish to.

    I find it strange that in general, so many movements these days move to popular, empowering arguments of 'pro-choice' or 'people's preference has no bearing on me, why would I care', but in the case of Irish, it must be kept compulsory... or else *insert emotional/patriotic worst-case scenario*.

    I think you'll find, the thread is about dropping Irish off, not movements or patriotic cases

    21/25



  • #381
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    uch wrote: »
    I think you'll find, the thread is about dropping Irish off, not movements or patriotic cases

    I'm talking about doing away with its compulsory status for the LC. Every argument I've seen for keeping it compulsory is based on emotional logic or a patriotic guilt trip. I've never heard a logical argument for it staying compulsory.


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  • #382
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    uch wrote: »
    I think you'll find, the thread is about dropping Irish off, not movements or patriotic cases

    Which are closely related. The arguments against making Irish optional come down to "our native language" or culture. The odd it is good to learn a language but French, German etc can also fill that role for the LC.


  • #383
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Which are closely related. The arguments against making Irish optional come down to "our native language" or culture. The odd it is good to learn a language but French, German etc can also fill that role for the LC.

    You would of course have to fire a lot of existing teachers (ever heard of unions) and bring in quite a number of new teachers to actually achieve this, and for what? For the sake of swapping one language for another? Hardily seems practical to me.


  • #384
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    I'm talking about doing away with its compulsory status for the LC. Every argument I've seen for keeping it compulsory is based on emotional logic or a patriotic guilt trip. I've never heard a logical argument for it staying compulsory.

    No, and to be fair to you, neither have I

    21/25



  • #385
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    GaelMise wrote: »
    You would of course have to fire a lot of existing teachers (ever heard of unions) and bring in quite a number of new teachers to actually achieve this, and for what? For the sake of swapping one language for another? Hardily seems practical to me.

    Most people tend to be already doing Irish+EU language as you are told you need one to get into the universities (which isnt the case for science and engineering but didnt find that out until I was in college) so it wouldnt just be swapping one language for another. People can choose which language they want and Irish is one of the options to choose from. There would probably be a few extra teachers but the union would sell the new teachers into slavery if it suited the others.


  • #386
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    GaelMise wrote: »
    You would of course have to fire a lot of existing teachers (ever heard of unions) and bring in quite a number of new teachers to actually achieve this, and for what? For the sake of swapping one language for another? Hardily seems practical to me.

    The students and their best interests should be of priority over a union's interests or a teacher's job security.


  • #387
    GaelMise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 542 ✭✭✭GaelMise


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    The students and their best interests should be of priority over a union's interests or a teacher's job security.

    Even if making Irish optional was in the students best interest, no actual evidence that compulsory Irish is holding students back by the way, burying your head in idealism does not make the unions go away.


  • #388
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    GaelMise wrote: »
    Even if making Irish optional was in the students best interest, no actual evidence that compulsory Irish is holding students back by the way, burying your head in idealism does not make the unions go away.
    Why isn't it in their best interest? Logically if they can spend more time on subjects they will be studying in college that is beneficial.

    The unions wouldn't really have grounds to protest.


  • #389
    uch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭uch


    Lads it's here to stay, so why not embrace it? instead of moaning

    21/25



  • #390
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    GaelMise wrote: »
    Even if making Irish optional was in the students best interest, no actual evidence that compulsory Irish is holding students back by the way, burying your head in idealism does not make the unions go away.

    How hypothetical does the argument have to be though? Unions are defenders of the status quo; I know that they would be horrendous should a politician try to make Irish compulsory. That doesn't mean, however, that proponents such as myself should just accept the way things are. And it's not about - again, relatively hypothetical - whether compulsory Irish is or isn't holding back students - it's simply about giving them the choice to decide for themselves.


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  • #391
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    uch wrote: »
    Lads it's here to stay, so why not embrace it? instead of moaning

    If it isnt going anywhere then the student know where to find it if they wish to continue studying it. There would be pressure to improve the course to ensure there are lots of students taking it up. As it is now they'll be doing it anyway so no need to change it.


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