Can we kill Irish once and for all

DJP

shane7218 wrote: »

Like I struggled with Irish in school and barely passed it, yet I did great in everything else and almost missed out on getting into a computer science course. How can we justify something like Irish determining if someone is good enough to study an IT related course or any for that matter.

Why do you want to "kill Irish" though??

RandomName2

valderrama1 wrote: »

Was speaking to my neighbour there a while ago. His english is hardly the queen's english.
Jaysus he's mighty at the latin though.
Ever read Peig by the way?

Thank God I haven't, but she was post-famine and didn't write her own books.

...

Sort of proves the point really.

Not that I don't think that Irish hasn't had an impact on us, of course it has. Latin has too. I'm not trying to argue that Latin is a living language though.

Nor do I think that Irish should be lost from schools... but it certainly shouldn't be compulsory for LC. Possibly not for JC, but certainly not for LC.

valderrama1 wrote: »

pff History. Who needs it. How could that have an influence on how we are now?

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. You're clearly saying that history is important, but don't seem to be getting how I'm pointing out how that is precisely what people are ignoring (+1 FunLover18 above).

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Why do you want to "kill Irish" though??

That thread title is kind of unfortunate, isn't it? Clickbait though!

valderrama1

FunLover18 wrote: »

How come the language, which has very little to do with how we are now, is the only part of our history deemed important enough to be compulsory?

But it is a part of how we are now.
If you look past the leaving cert race and the usefulness of subjects, there is an argument to be made for spending some time on it.
But making it compulsory or not I don't know, denying a person a place in college because of that is actually really wrong if it's unrelated to what they're doing.

Do you not think it's strange though that a lot of Irish people *hate* Irish? For me in school I was always frustrated by it because you were supposed to already be at a certain level, the whole way through. You were always supposed to be fluent already. Maybe that has something to do with it.
We need to admit to ourselves that nobody speaks it and start from there. There is amazing Irish literature out there. It's just that it's bitchin hard to understand it if you're coming out of secondary school

valderrama1

RandomName2 wrote: »

Thank God I haven't, but she was post-famine and didn't write her own books.

...

Sort of proves the point really.

Not that I don't think that Irish hasn't had an impact on us, of course it has. Latin has too. I'm not trying to argue that Latin is a living language though.

Nor do I think that Irish should be lost from schools... but it certainly shouldn't be compulsory for LC. Possibly not for JC, but certainly not for LC.

In Peig there is a part where she recounts stories from the famine but it's her father's generation I think

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. You're clearly saying that history is important, but don't seem to be getting how I'm pointing out how that is precisely what people are ignoring (+1 FunLover18 above).

No I agree there, it being compulsory for leaving is a different thing. Didn't mean to be smart. Especially seeing as a student might be doing other languages. It is a lot of language subjects, including English.

shruikan2553

valderrama1 wrote: »

Do you not think it's strange though that a lot of Irish people *hate* Irish? For me in school I was always frustrated by it because you were supposed to already be at a certain level, the whole way through. You were always supposed to be fluent already. Maybe that has something to do with it.
We need to admit to ourselves that nobody speaks it and start from there. There is amazing Irish literature out there. It's just that it's bitchin hard to understand it if you're coming out of secondary school

I think this is a major flaw in the system, going by the average hours spent teaching Irish we should all be able to survive in an area where people only speak Irish after primary school which the teachers for the junior cert think, "you should know this already", yes we should but we dont and you know that so there is no point pretending otherwise as we'll get nowhere. People reading out Irish in their LC years shouldnt sound like a 5 year old child reading the cat in the hat.
If I start teaching you fourier series while knowing you dont know integration Im not sure what else I would expect other than confused faces and people not paying attention because it goes over their head.

Tuisceanch

Learning a language regardless of how useful it might prove in your later life from a purely monetary perspective will surely develop faculties on a physiological level which will facilitate your understanding of other more potentially useful languages,like English for instance. People also underestimate the value of preserving their own language when in truth it is the cornerstone of authentic Irish culture. I say this as someone who was abysmal at Irish in school but I'd hate for it to die out due to the focus of an 'educational' system' which is geared towards job training,however badly,rather than the true purpose of education which is to broaden your mind and think creatively. That's just my tuppence worth though.

Snake

If the schools or state allowed you to pick and chose what subjects you did schools may as well shut up shop. Most people given the choice won't bother their arse doing subjects because "ah it's pointless, ah it's too hard. Sure I can speak English no need for that subject. I'll never use irish" fair enough you might never use it, I had to learn algebra and I haven't done a single algebra problem since leaving school. Or read a poem, or a play, and I haven't done any scientific studies, but I learned it anyway because that's what a school is about, you don't get to choose, you may as well live with it. A lot may not speak irish but we ARE irish so we learn the language, it's not a big thing to do.

shane7218

GrayFox208 wrote: »

If the schools or state allowed you to pick and chose what subjects you did schools may as well shut up shop. Most people given the choice won't bother their arse doing subjects because "ah it's pointless, ah it's too hard. Sure I can speak English no need for that subject. I'll never use irish" fair enough you might never use it, I had to learn algebra and I haven't done a single algebra problem since leaving school. Or read a poem, or a play, and I haven't done any scientific studies, but I learned it anyway because that's what a school is about, you don't get to choose, you may as well live with it. A lot may not speak irish but we ARE irish so we learn the language, it's not a big thing to do.

We already spend more than 9 years learning Irish before Leaving cert. Is that not enough ?

shruikan2553

GrayFox208 wrote: »

If the schools or state allowed you to pick and chose what subjects you did schools may as well shut up shop. Most people given the choice won't bother their arse doing subjects because "ah it's pointless, ah it's too hard. Sure I can speak English no need for that subject. I'll never use irish" fair enough you might never use it, I had to learn algebra and I haven't done a single algebra problem since leaving school. Or read a poem, or a play, and I haven't done any scientific studies, but I learned it anyway because that's what a school is about, you don't get to choose, you may as well live with it. A lot may not speak irish but we ARE irish so we learn the language, it's not a big thing to do.

Umm, you do choose lots of things. Even for junior cert I had to make choices out of metalwork, woodwork or home ec, art, TG or music and finally french or german.
You are free to choose nothing for your LC too, you just wont get exam results and cant go to college that way.

FunLover18

valderrama1 wrote: »

But it is a part of how we are now.
If you look past the leaving cert race and the usefulness of subjects, there is an argument to be made for spending some time on it.
But making it compulsory or not I don't know, denying a person a place in college because of that is actually really wrong if it's unrelated to what they're doing.

Do you not think it's strange though that a lot of Irish people *hate* Irish? For me in school I was always frustrated by it because you were supposed to already be at a certain level, the whole way through. You were always supposed to be fluent already. Maybe that has something to do with it.
We need to admit to ourselves that nobody speaks it and start from there. There is amazing Irish literature out there. It's just that it's bitchin hard to understand it if you're coming out of secondary school

I don't think it's such a major part that justifies it being compulsory at LC. I don't think anything is. Culture can't be taught,it is passed on through life, people pick and choose the parts they like/don't like. Of course are education system has to incorporate culture, that's unavoidable. But Shakespeare isn't forced down our throats with the attitude "it's cultured! like it", however Irish is taught with the attitude "It's our culture, learn it" and you can see that in almost every defence of LC Irish YET they also say if it's made optional it will die. How does that work?

I don't think it strange at all that people hate Irish, when for fourteen years they literally can't get away from it unless they have an exemption. I absolutely agree that the way Irish is taught needs to be revitalised from Junior Infants up. Primary school is the most important place to teach Irish, yet Irish speakers defend compulsory LC Irish as though it were the corner stone of learning the language which is ridiculous.

Tuisceanch wrote: »

Learning a language regardless of how useful it might prove in your later life from a purely monetary perspective will surely develop faculties on a physiological level which will facilitate your understanding of other more potentially useful languages,like English for instance. People also underestimate the value of preserving their own language when in truth it is the cornerstone of authentic Irish culture. I say this as someone who was abysmal at Irish in school but I'd hate for it to die out due to the focus of an 'educational' system' which is geared towards job training,however badly,rather than the true purpose of education which is to broaden your mind and think creatively. That's just my tuppence worth though.

The way the Irish education system works Irish students have a choice on whether they want job training or mind broadening. Making Irish optional will widen that choice, compulsory Irish narrows it given that students spend hours studying Irish for LC when they could be studying another subject they deem more appropriate.

FunLover18

GrayFox208 wrote: »

If the schools or state allowed you to pick and chose what subjects you did schools may as well shut up shop. Most people given the choice won't bother their arse doing subjects because "ah it's pointless, ah it's too hard. Sure I can speak English no need for that subject. I'll never use irish" fair enough you might never use it, I had to learn algebra and I haven't done a single algebra problem since leaving school. Or read a poem, or a play, and I haven't done any scientific studies, but I learned it anyway because that's what a school is about, you don't get to choose, you may as well live with it. A lot may not speak irish but we ARE irish so we learn the language, it's not a big thing to do.

I did seven subjects for the LC I chose 4 of them (I now believe I could have chosen 6 of them) as does the vast majority of Irish LC students

jackofalltrades

Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert.
The extra two years that are spent studying it make very little difference to the average person abilities at the language.
And most of what they learn they will forget through lack of use.

The main outcome from studying Irish for the LC is to turn another generation against the language.
I might have gone back and tried to learn it again, if I hadn't such a horrible experience of it in secondary school.
It's ridiculous reading novels and poetry, when people can barely put together a sentence in the language.

At best it's a very small part of our collective cultural identity, but it's not part of my cultural identity.
And it doesn't bring any shame on me, or make me less Irish for not being able to speak it.

Whilst there are people who have a genuine love for the language, the majority want to keep it compulsory out of a sense of cultural inferiority.
They see it as the only thing that separates us from being English.
People feeling the need to shove the language down people's throats will die out in time, our society just needs to grow up a little first.

mickstupp

Considering the number of people on this forum who give out about nanny state interference, people telling them what they can and can't do, I'm genuinely surprised that so many are in favour of forcing students to learn Irish in the Leaving Cert. Still haven't seen a single rational argument in support of it being compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

FunLover18

mickstupp wrote: »

Considering the number of people on this forum who give out about nanny state interference, people telling them what they can and can't do, I'm genuinely surprised that so many are in favour of forcing students to learn Irish in the Leaving Cert. Still haven't seen a single rational argument in support of it being compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

Did you expect to?

RandomName2

GrayFox208 wrote: »

If the schools or state allowed you to pick and chose what subjects you did schools may as well shut up shop. Most people given the choice won't bother their arse doing subjects because "ah it's pointless, ah it's too hard. Sure I can speak English no need for that subject. I'll never use irish" fair enough you might never use it, I had to learn algebra and I haven't done a single algebra problem since leaving school. Or read a poem, or a play, and I haven't done any scientific studies, but I learned it anyway because that's what a school is about, you don't get to choose, you may as well live with it. A lot may not speak irish but we ARE irish so we learn the language, it's not a big thing to do.

Poetry in English isn't about reading poems... it's about the ability to deconstruct. I sort of think that the opposite should have more focus though: the capacity to produce cogent arguments (more of a third level Arts thing currently).

Not really sure what the point of teaching you algebra has been if you have never used it since, or will never use it again. What was the point? Does it make you think more logically? Give you a better understanding of other things you do do? If not then it would suggest that you shouldn't have been learning it; except for the caveat that not learning it would have closed off potential careers to you at an early age.

Not bothering their arses? Perhaps... but many people choose to do higher level maths, and applied maths because they have an aptitude for it and/or want to go into engineering. Makes sense.

Some people do some/all of the sciences for LC because they want to go into science. This also makes sense.

What does not make sense is your persuasion that people should learn stuff cuz it's there and mandatory is good (leaving aside that the LC itself isn't mandatory and that most subjects are optional).

We learn Irish because we are Irish? Ah... De Valera.. your spirit lives on...

shane7218

mickstupp wrote: »

Considering the number of people on this forum who give out about nanny state interference, people telling them what they can and can't do, I'm genuinely surprised that so many are in favour of forcing students to learn Irish in the Leaving Cert. Still haven't seen a single rational argument in support of it being compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

That's because there isnt one

Aineoil

I love the Irish language. Because there's a thread to not like it I will still love the language.

RandomName2

Aineoil wrote: »

I love the Irish language. Because there's a thread to not like it I will still love the language.

But if this thread disappeared you would hate it?

Lou.m

To be honest I would rather they taught it by immersion.

We all come out not being able to speak it ...so it is not students or else some would come out fluent.

I think we need to admit the govt does not actually care.

We need to teach languages in general much better here. We are very luck to speak english ...or lord knows.

Reindeer

I've have been visiting boards.ie since my third visa in Ireland back in 2007. Since then I have seen some truly depressing and ridiculous threads come and go. By far, the most truly depressing one is the constant whinging about the Irish language. I've mostly been a bystander, being as I am not Irish. But, today, after reading some of the utter tripe posted herein, after paging through countless posts after posts of lazy, ignorant arguments by lazy, ignorant people, I just had to say:

Grow the fvck up, children.

Your history and your culture is worth saving and worth educating yourselves about. I'm not religious, but I'd like to borrow from a saying we have in Texas - You were Irish by birth, but you have the Irish language by the grace of God. Ireland itself is simply a place mat. What makes Ireland truly Irish is the history, the art, the culture. The epitome of that culture is the language. Over the centuries, how many were shunned simply for having the accent? How many Irish ancestors were beaten because they spoke it? How many died? How many fought to remain Irish, and for everything that it entailed so that pathetic babies can bitch and moan on an internet forum, an IRISH forum, about having to spend a small fraction of their lives educating themselves with their own culture and history? How pathetic is it that some jackass from Texas has to stand up and tell you all to stop being little b!tches. You embarrass your ancestors, and I am embarrassed and ashamed for you. Now shut the hell up, grow the hell up, go back to your damn lessons, and maybe push some of that ignorance and laziness back into the pissy little baby closet where it came from.

auldgranny

Reindeer wrote: »

I've have been visiting boards.ie since my third visa in Ireland back in 2007. Since then I have seen some truly depressing and ridiculous threads come and go. By far, the most truly depressing one is the constant whinging about the Irish language. I've mostly been a bystander, being as I am not Irish. But, today, after reading some of the utter tripe posted herein, after paging through countless posts after posts of lazy, ignorant arguments by lazy, ignorant people, I just had to say:

Grow the fvck up, children.

Your history and your culture is worth saving and worth educating yourselves about. I'm not religious, but I'd like to borrow from a saying we have in Texas - You were Irish by birth, but you have the Irish language by the grace of God. Ireland itself is simply a place mat. What makes Ireland truly Irish is the history, the art, the culture. The epitome of that culture is the language. Over the centuries, how many were shunned simply for having the accent? How many Irish ancestors were beaten because they spoke it? How many died? How many fought to remain Irish, and for everything that it entailed so that pathetic babies can bitch and moan on an internet forum, an IRISH forum, about having to spend a small fraction of their lives educating themselves with their own culture and history? How pathetic is it that some jackass from Texas has to stand up and tell you all to stop being little b!tches. You embarrass your ancestors, and I am embarrassed and ashamed for you. Now shut the hell up, grow the hell up, go back to your damn lessons, and maybe push some of that ignorance and laziness back into the pissy little baby closet where it came from.

Wow.
What is it about us in Ireland. I was giving out about people whining but reindeer comes along and all of a sudden I am like "if we want to give out, we will" is that typically irish or am I just a contrary auld one

kingchess

he forgot latin,spoken by our people for 1500 years

auldgranny

kingchess wrote: »

he forgot latin,spoken by our people for 1500 years

Not widespread spoken in use.

auldgranny

Seriously though reindeer great post

pconn062

I would love to be able to speak Irish, and I intend to study it as soon as I've improved my German skills a bit. I think the way Irish is taught is appalling and we need a more immersive system where the language is taught through speech. This is a basic thing, my German and Irish classes were taught in English, what's the point in that??

Dan_Solo

auldgranny wrote: »

Seriously though reindeer great post

Said nobody.

kingchess

my german is quite good,had to be to know what my partner is giving out/saying to me,my Irish I am working on and it is improving

gctest50

Reindeer wrote: »

.....You were Irish by birth, but you have the Irish language by the grace of God.....

what god ? i don't have one

Reindeer wrote: »

after paging through countless posts after posts of lazy, ignorant arguments by lazy, ignorant people,.

really ?

Reindeer wrote: »

i'd like to borrow from a saying we have in Texas

falling apart over there at the minute ?




.

auldgranny

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Said nobody.

Said me. Honestly, sometimes an outsider's view can be quite insightful (sometimes inciteful)

ZeitgeistGlee

Reindeer wrote: »

I've have been visiting boards.ie since my third visa in Ireland back in 2007. Since then I have seen some truly depressing and ridiculous threads come and go. By far, the most truly depressing one is the constant whinging about the Irish language. I've mostly been a bystander, being as I am not Irish. But, today, after reading some of the utter tripe posted herein, after paging through countless posts after posts of lazy, ignorant arguments by lazy, ignorant people, I just had to say:

Grow the fvck up, children.

Your history and your culture is worth saving and worth educating yourselves about. I'm not religious, but I'd like to borrow from a saying we have in Texas - You were Irish by birth, but you have the Irish language by the grace of God. Ireland itself is simply a place mat. What makes Ireland truly Irish is the history, the art, the culture. The epitome of that culture is the language. Over the centuries, how many were shunned simply for having the accent? How many Irish ancestors were beaten because they spoke it? How many died? How many fought to remain Irish, and for everything that it entailed so that pathetic babies can bitch and moan on an internet forum, an IRISH forum, about having to spend a small fraction of their lives educating themselves with their own culture and history? How pathetic is it that some jackass from Texas has to stand up and tell you all to stop being little b!tches. You embarrass your ancestors, and I am embarrassed and ashamed for you. Now shut the hell up, grow the hell up, go back to your damn lessons, and maybe push some of that ignorance and laziness back into the pissy little baby closet where it came from.

You know I'd have given your post more weight if you weren't from a country which basically killed off the original inhabitants and all their various languages/cultures/histories so you could take their lands for yourselves. So maybe instead of wading in here and attempting to shout down Irish people who feel that Irish as a language isn't a central part of our culture (which we, you know being Irish, have the right to decide) you might go find a group of Native Americans and go learn their language, culture and history to make amends for what your ancestors did, that is of course if you truly believe that such things are as integral as you intimate.

And we've had plenty of the "grace of God" from the Catholic Church thanks, but if you want to lump in forcing the Irish language down the throats of a half-dozen generations since Independence and holding their higher education to ransom I guess that could fit with the rest of their decades of abuse.

Definitely agree with that last bolded bit though, bang on.

(For the record, I'm in the "radical overhaul and modernisation of the Irish curriculum and making it optional at LC-level" demographic as opposed to the "get rid of it entirely" one. Frankly there's no excuse as to how we can become basically fluent in a European language after 5 years at secondary level yet 10+ fails miserably to achieve the same for Irish.)