Can we kill Irish once and for all

GaelMise

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why isn't it in their best interest? Logically if they can spend more time on subjects they will be studying in college that is beneficial.

How is allowing children to cut themselves off from higher education opportunities so that they can have a short term 'gain' of taking easier subject options in their best interest?

The unions wouldn't really have grounds to protest.

Did you post that with a straight face? :D:D

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

How is allowing children to cut themselves off from higher education opportunities so that they can have a short term 'gain' of taking easier subject options in their best interest?




Did you post that with a straight face? :D:D

Which higher education opportunities? The colleges and universities will probably drop it as a requirement, they dont exactly put up much of a fight towards those who are exempt now.

speedboatchase

uch wrote: »

Lads it's here to stay, so why not embrace it? instead of moaning

This will sound extreme but I've lived abroad for two years now, have a non-Irish girlfriend, and though I'd love to return home for good in a few years, I would hate for my kids to be forced to learn Irish until they're 16-17. I don't get too wound up about Irish laws but this one has always bugged me.

I'd like to see change in my lifetime and I don't think non-compulsory Irish for the LC is an unreasonable cause.

GaelMise

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If it isnt going anywhere then the student know where to find it if they wish to continue studying it. There would be pressure to improve the course to ensure there are lots of students taking it up. As it is now they'll be doing it anyway so no need to change it.

You really dont get how government works. Who would the pressure be on? Irish teachers? They dont get to decide what curriculum they have to teach. The NCCA is in charge of that, and why would there be pressure on them? Why should they care if people choose something else instead of Irish. Not all that many people choose Technical Drawing, that must mean there is pressure to change it, right?

Iwasfrozen

GaelMise wrote: »

How is allowing children to cut themselves off from higher education opportunities so that they can have a short term 'gain' of taking easier subject options in their best interest?

Only dumb students with neglectful parents. On a serious note only NUI colleges require Irish.

Did you post that with a straight face? :D:D

Yes. They won't be happy over the redundancies. (of course not it's their job to be unhappy) But there's nothing they'll be able to do about it.

uch wrote: »

Lads it's here to stay, so why not embrace it? instead of moaning

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

GaelMise

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Which higher education opportunities? The colleges and universities will probably drop it as a requirement, they dont exactly put up much of a fight towards those who are exempt now.

The NUI, significant majority in favour of maintaining Irish as a requirement.
And even if the NUI was forced to drop it as a requirement eventually, it would not happen straight away, what about the kids who drop Irish before the NUI does, I suppose their best interests dont matter to you as long as you can get rid of Irish?

GaelMise

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Only dumb students with neglectful parents. On a serious note only NUI colleges require Irish.

Only dumb students with neglectful parents would drop Irish?
Only the NUI, ya, its hardily a significant part of the Irish third level system is it.

Yes. They won't be happy over the redundancies. (of course not it's their job to be unhappy) But there's nothing they'll be able to do about it.

No nothing at all, apart from shutting down the education system.

Iwasfrozen

GaelMise wrote: »

Only dumb students with neglectful parents would drop Irish?
Only the NUI, ya, its hardily a significant part of the Irish third level system is it.

Until the NUI drops the requirement, yes.

it really isn't. Anything you can do in NUI can be done elsewhere.

No nothing at all, apart from shutting down the education system.

Striking requires a majority vote. the majority of teachers wouldn't loose their job. The majority of Irish teachers wouldn't even loose their job.

If the day ever comes that Irish is made optional (and it will come it's inevitable) the teachers unions won't stop it.

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

You really dont get how government works. Who would the pressure be on? Irish teachers? They dont get to decide what curriculum they have to teach. The NCCA is in charge of that, and why would there be pressure on them? Why should they care if people choose something else instead of Irish. Not all that many people choose Technical Drawing, that must mean there is pressure to change it, right?

People dont claim technical drawing is part of out culture and should be compulsory. I dont care if they change Irish or not, in its current form it isnt very attractive to many students so I would recommend changing it to some form of usefulness if you want more people to want to take it.

GaelMise wrote: »

The NUI, significant majority in favour of maintaining Irish as a requirement.
And even if the NUI was forced to drop it as a requirement eventually, it would not happen straight away, what about the kids who drop Irish before the NUI does, I suppose their best interests dont matter to you as long as you can get rid of Irish?

Im not sure what you are trying to say with the first line. Why would NUIs be forced? Im not sure who sets the requirements but they dont require a language for engineering and science as it is, cant confirm they would drop the requirement but I cant see any reason why they would keep it. What are these best interests you keep talking about? Whos getting rid of Irish? It will be optional. I know some Irish speakers are a paranoid bunch that everyone is out to get them but there are a lot of people who dont want it to die or who just dont care.

Davarus Walrus

They walked down from the Kerry hills towards Killarney. Long lads, short lads and fellas feeling short about not even a call at all. It was the Munster Final. The radio wasn't used as the game was in the county.

A native speaker wrote that. I'd hate to get rid of a language that makes English sound so lovely

Sir Arthur Daley

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

They walked down from the Kerry hills towards Killarney.

has killarney got many beaches?

gctest50

speedboatchase wrote: »

......
I'd like to see change in my lifetime and I don't think non-compulsory Irish for the LC is an unreasonable cause.

I'd like to see Irish and religion out of it from the start of primary school upwards

MultiUmm

I've only read up to page 2 of the thread so forgive me if the points I make have already been stated.

The biggest obstacle facing the Irish language in Ireland today is the state. There is something seriously wrong with the way the language is taught if after 14 years of school a student with a leaving certificate cannot hold an intermediate level conversation in the language.

This points to a wider problem that exists within the second level system in Ireland but that's not the topic of this thread. The 'study' of Irish in school entails an absurd amount of memorising notes about poems and stories, while having little to no knowledge of the practicalities of speaking the language. The oral exam is also a complete shambles in the sense that it relies almost solely on rote learning. Gael scoils are a different story but the majority of students learn Irish in a school that is not a Gael scoil and therefore they experience the system of 'learning for the exam' and not actually getting a grasp of the language itself.

If something is forced upon someone without their consent or willingness they are almost overwhelmingly going to have a negative reaction. Especially in the case of a language like Irish because it is insular - outside of this island it cannot be used or spoken beyond the value of novelty to impress foreigners.

Despite this I do not want to see the language die. The fact that it has reached the level it's at today is a tragedy in its own right, we seem to forget how scarring it is for a whole nation to lose its native tongue in a relatively short time frame. The Irish language is at a crossroad - if there is a drastic overhaul in how it is taught and implemented in society there may be hope for it yet. If not, it will continue to fade further into obscurity.

GaelMise

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Im not sure what you are trying to say with the first line.

A significant majority in the NUI are in favour of maintining Irish as an entry requirement.

I know some Irish speakers are a paranoid bunch that everyone is out to get them

Have a look at the thread title.

RandomName2

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

They walked down from the Kerry hills towards Killarney. Long lads, short lads and fellas feeling short about not even a call at all. It was the Munster Final. The radio wasn't used as the game was in the county.

A native speaker wrote that. I'd hate to get rid of a language that makes English sound so lovely

...

Your argument concerning why Irish should not be optional in the LC is perhaps your best yet; that is that it translated into English apparently produces lines such as "feeling short about not even a call at all".

Keep up the good work.

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

A significant majority in the NUI are in favour of maintining Irish as an entry requirement.




Have a look at the thread title.

Why? Where did they say and explain this?

Thread title doesnt represents everyone who wants to make the language optional.

Make it optional and if the NUIs keep it as a requirement students will have to do it to check that box, not caring for the language and lots of Irish speakers can sleep safely knowing the language will continue on how it is with people who will never use it after the LC learning a few pages to write down so they can get into college instead of focusing on subjects related to what they want to do in college.

Red Nissan

Irish should be free.

If one looks at Ireland's history one will see that the Irish Language and the Catholic Religion were somewhat annexed by various factions to promote unrest and protest.

GaelMise

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Thread title doesnt represents everyone who wants to make the language optional.

No. However, plenty of people who support keeping Irish compulsory see efforts to make it optional as part of a wider effort to get rid of Irish altogether. You may think this is paranoid, but such an effort to get rid of Irish altogether by way of making it optional is the subject of the thread after all.

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

No. However, plenty of people who support keeping Irish compulsory see efforts to make it optional as part of a wider effort to get rid of Irish altogether. You may think this is paranoid, but such an effort to get rid of Irish altogether by way of making it optional is the subject of the thread after all.

If making it optional is such a threat to the language then it has problems beyond people doing pass Irish keeping it alive.

The NUIs will want to keep it as a requirement if what you said was true. People will have to do Irish if they want to go to university and the language will thrive.

GaelMise

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If making it optional is such a threat to the language then it has problems beyond people doing pass Irish keeping it alive.

The NUIs will want to keep it as a requirement if what you said was true. People will have to do Irish if they want to go to university and the language will thrive.

Making Irish optional has nothing to do with helping the language to thrive and you know it.
Despite the lazy rethoric, compulsory status is not holding Irish back. Just look at what happened to language leaning in England when they made it optional. Sure they said it would make language learning thrive, for all the same nonsense reasons that are trotted out here in support of making Irish optional for its own benefit. They were warned from the start in England that it would not work, and guess what, it did'nt.
Lets not repeat such obvious mistakes.

valderrama1

If you dislike Irish that much OP, why not do foundation level so you spend a minimum of time at it and fulfill the requirement?

And anyway why not learn a bit of Irish at leaving cert level?

There are a lot of useless subjects at Leaving Cert level that you will forget once you've left school.
You get a good grounding in some subjects but a. you'll forget a good lot of it, and b. if you're really serious about a subject you'll be doing it as a career and that is usually at a totally higher level than what you will do in the Leaving cert.

So at least with spending a little time on Irish you'll be able to look back and say "Ok I'm Irish, I can say a few words in Irish". Surely?!!!!!

And this argument about Irish being useless and that if we were to spend the time on German or Spanish or Chinese it would be much better spent... Total horse$hit.

Anybody coming out of Leaving Cert with a language doesn't know how to really speak it.
Even people coming out of DEGREES in a language, don't always speak it that well. If you work with people straight out of college in multi-lingual jobs you will see that.
There is a big difference between being able to speak a language in the classroom, and actually being able to speak it in a business situation. E.g. "Explain this excel sheet to me in German please".

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

Making Irish optional has nothing to do with helping the language to thrive and you know it.

And neither does keeping it compulsory, after a few generations it is still a minority language. I never claimed it would help it thrive, all I said it would leave the classes full of people who want to learn the language. Whether or not that helps the language is of no concern to me. I just dont see how me learning off 2 pages of essays I barely understood was helpful for me or the language.

GaelMise wrote: »

Despite the lazy rethoric, compulsory status is not holding Irish back. Just look at what happened to language leaning in England when they made it optional. Sure they said it would make language learning thrive, for all the same nonsense reasons that are trotted out here in support of making Irish optional for its own benefit. They were warned from the start in England that it would not work, and guess what, it did'nt.
Lets not repeat such obvious mistakes.

Making it compulsory is working great isnt it?

mickydoomsux

GaelMise wrote: »

Making Irish optional has nothing to do with helping the language to thrive and you know it.

Corpses can't thrive.

GaelMise

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And neither does keeping it compulsory, after a few generations it is still a minority language. I never claimed it would help it thrive, all I said it would leave the classes full of people who want to learn the language.

Yep, same argument was trotted out in England, classes full of people interested in learning languages, they said, no more disruption from those who are onlyh there because they have to be. They were warned that it would not work and it did'nt and they have been trying to undo the damage since.

Making it compulsory is working great isnt it?

Its doing about as much as you could reasonably expect of it, some people have the notion that people should be fluent comming out of school, which in reallity is expecting far too much.

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

Yep, same argument was trotted out in England, classes full of people interested in learning languages, they said, no more disruption from those who are onlyh there because they have to be. They were warned that it would not work and it did'nt and they have been trying to undo the damage since.



Its doing about as much as you could reasonably expect of it, some people have the notion that people should be fluent comming out of school, which in reallity is expecting far too much.

What damage? We have 2 options.
1. Irish is compulsory, people do the minimum to pass.
2. Irish is optional, people who dont want to do it dont, people who do want to learn it will continue to do so.

How does me learning 2 1 page essays (poorly may I add) and getting a C in ordinary Irish help me or the language?

Expect something more than asking to go to the toilet.

looking_around

GaelMise wrote: »

Yep, same argument was trotted out in England, classes full of people interested in learning languages, they said, no more disruption from those who are onlyh there because they have to be. They were warned that it would not work and it did'nt and they have been trying to undo the damage since.



Its doing about as much as you could reasonably expect of it, some people have the notion that people should be fluent coming out of school, which in reality is expecting far too much.

Other countries (Portugal/Spain/Germany etc.) Have no trouble learning extra languages and leaving school fluent in them.

After 14 years we definitely should be fluent. It's not too much to expect.
But the truth is more people end up more 'fluent' in German/French after 5 years than the many years of Irish.
Looking at the reason for this is really important, and I think it's more how it's taught. Alot of Irish teachers are terrible and Irish is taught as if people already have a grounding in it. Irish is taught like English and not like a foreign language.
Which, like it or not, To majority of Irish people, Irish IS a foreign language.

And it's also downright useless to the majority of people. And this is why no one cares when they finish school barely able to scrape a few words together.

mickstupp

GaelMise wrote: »

Its doing about as much as you could reasonably expect of it, some people have the notion that people should be fluent comming out of school, which in reallity is expecting far too much.

I disagree completely. I knew far more French after 1 year than I ever did of Irish. If it was taught in the same way foreign languages were taught, I believe most people would leave school fluent. Spending 10 years learning Irish, if taught correctly, is more than enough for everyone to become thoroughly fluent. Making the last two years optional shouldn't hurt the language at all. But of course it's not taught correctly, and a terrible syllabus and terrible teachers are never going to be replaced in this country.

There are precisely zero rational reasons why it should remain compulsory for the Leaving Cert.

GaelMise

looking_around wrote: »

Other countries (Portugal/Spain/Germany etc.) Have no trouble learning extra languages and leaving school fluent in them.

Kids who go to a Gaelscoil have no trouble learning Irish, perhaps how you go about something has an impact?

After 14 years we definitely should be fluent. It's not too much to expect.

You dont spend 14 years learning Irish, you barely spend 1300 hours learning Irish in an English medium school which is no where near enough to become fluent in a language.

But the truth is more people end up more 'fluent' in German/French after 5 years than the many years of Irish.

Anything to back that up? You may get a better mark, but the Irish exam is much more substantial than the French or German exam and is pitched at a higher level.

And it's also downright useless to the majority of people. And this is why no one cares when they finish school barely able to scrape a few words together.

Never got this argument, Irish is not useless. The only thing that makes it 'useless' to you is your inablilty to speak it, which is a bit like saying that cars are useless just because you don't know how to drive.
If you can speak it, you can use it.

shruikan2553

GaelMise wrote: »

You dont spend 14 years learning Irish, you barely spend 1300 hours learning Irish in an English medium school which is no where near enough to become fluent in a language.

This says otherwise,maybe not an expert of the language but quite a good level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages

RandomName2

GaelMise wrote: »

Kids who go to a Gaelscoil have no trouble learning Irish, perhaps how you go about something has an impact?

You dont spend 14 years learning Irish, you barely spend 1300 hours learning Irish in an English medium school which is no where near enough to become fluent in a language.

Sweet jesus you're serious.

One thousand three hundred hours. To think what I could have learned in that time.

GaelMise wrote: »

Never got this argument, Irish is not useless. The only thing that makes it 'useless' to you is your inablilty to speak it, which is a bit like saying that cars are useless just because you don't know how to drive.
If you can speak it, you can use it.

No, no. Cars have a use... to drive them.

Irish is useless because it is not a medium of communication which is used.

Here, look, water barges are useless. They became defunct long ago (superseded by rail travel). Doesn't mean that people don't enjoy using them from time to time, but they aren't really a mode of transport (and the government investing large sums of money in canals would be laughable). Not saying we should get rid of water barges or anything, just that you shouldn't have to know how to operate a canal lock as part of your driving test. Because that would be stupid.

Water canals are an integral part of Irish culture. Is is a living form of transport.