Can we kill Irish once and for all

Ficheall · 04-07-2014 09:42PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But you've missed the point.
Even if school leavers were 100% fluent Irish speakers they still wouldn't use it. We are culturally ENGLISH speakers and every bit of media we consume is in English.

You'd advocate dropping a proportion of our u's and syllables then? Much of the media we consume is American, after all.

What makes you think someone wouldn't use Irish if they were 100% fluent? I use it on a daily basis and I'm certainly not fluent.

Gallowglass · 04-07-2014 09:48PM

In Northern Ireland we don't even have to learn it at all, he have a choice when starting secondary school if you want to learn it for 3 years, then after 3rd year you get a choice to take it on for another 2 years for GCSE and then after that you get a choice if you want to take it on for A-Level, it is a shame as very few are fluent in the language their ancestors spoke for centuries, even the Scots have more fluent speakers of Scottish Gaelic I would imagine and it was Ulster gaels who brought it over there in the first place.

Not one single word of it was learned in primary school.

Dan_Solo · 04-07-2014 09:52PM

Alternating Current wrote: »

If we were taught in such a way that it is enjoyable to learn more people would speak it. Learning a second language makes it easier to learn other languages and helps to prevent cognitive decline.

Can you show us any controlled experiment where teaching Irish has improved a student's grades in other languages?
Otherwise this is just waffle.
No, if they gave out pumpkin pie at Irish lessons people would still dump it about one second after their last exam as it would still be useless.

Dan_Solo · 04-07-2014 09:54PM

Ficheall wrote: »

You'd advocate dropping a proportion of our u's and syllables then? Much of the media we consume is American, after all.

What makes you think someone wouldn't use Irish if they were 100% fluent? I use it on a daily basis and I'm certainly not fluent.

Are you claiming you have trouble understanding American and UK English?
Oh, you didn't really have a point there at all. Sorry.
What makes me think it is that they would still have to speak English to everyone else and consume all their media in English. They could speak to themselves I suppose, but that's usually taken as a sign of, ya know...

Davidius · 04-07-2014 10:02PM

Gallowglass wrote: »

even the Scots have more fluent speakers of Scottish Gaelic

Looking at most estimates, that seems unlikely. Scottish Gaelic has about 60k speakers, Irish most likely has more fluent speakers than that. The number with some ability in Irish is definitely higher due to compulsory education.

shane7218 · 04-07-2014 10:23PM

Alternating Current wrote: »

If we were taught in such a way that it is enjoyable to learn more people would speak it. Learning a second language makes it easier to learn other languages and helps to prevent cognitive decline.

But that doesn't support the fact that it should be compulsory. It should be a choice simple as that

Alternating Current · 04-07-2014 10:38PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can you show us any controlled experiment where teaching Irish has improved a student's grades in other languages?
Otherwise this is just waffle.
No, if they gave out pumpkin pie at Irish lessons people would still dump it about one second after their last exam as it would still be useless.

Can you show me a quote where I said it would improve grades in other subjects? Otherwise this is just waffle.

Alternating Current · 04-07-2014 10:42PM

shane7218 wrote: »

But that doesn't support the fact that it should be compulsory. It should be a choice simple as that

We should teach languages from a young age, their first may as well be their native language. I'd argue the same for any country. One year of learning Irish would be more than enough to become fluent with the right curriculum, there would be plenty of time to earn other languages. You could learn sign language or computer programming too, if you quit wasting time teaching languages in a nonsensical manner.

FunLover18 · 04-07-2014 10:46PM

Alternating Current wrote: »

We should teach languages from a young age, their first may as well be their native language. I'd argue the same for any country. One year of learning Irish would be more than enough to become fluent with the right curriculum, there would be plenty of time to earn other languages. You could learn sign language or computer programming too, if you quit wasting time teaching languages in a nonsensical manner.

Surely even with the wrong curriculum ELEVEN years is also more than enough? I don't see why we can't change the curriculum and make Irish optional for LC at the same time. Primary school education is where all the ground work is done and if students aren't fluent upon entering secondary school than the primary curriculum is in way more need of feformation than secondary

briany · 04-07-2014 10:51PM

Ficheall wrote: »

You'd advocate dropping a proportion of our u's and syllables then? Much of the media we consume is American, after all.

What makes you think someone wouldn't use Irish if they were 100% fluent? I use it on a daily basis and I'm certainly not fluent.

I, for one, hope that the country never becomes fluent in the language because I want to learn it just so I can be insufferable with it to people who don't know it, insisting that all verbal arguments with me be conducted as gaeilge after a certain point of me losing, or insisting on it in dealings with chuggers, the homeless, door to door salespeople and the like. If they can, fair enough, but it's a filter. And I can do that, remember, I can do that because it is still the first constitutional language of the country and I would have every right. :pac:

If you wanted to really grow the language, you would have to get it spoken in the home. I don't know why TnaG don't do a programme with this exact end, a programme aimed at adult learners who could then pass what they learn to their kids. Something along the lines of the Michel Thomas method, which goes from the start of the language and has this incredible knack for demystifying the grammar. I don't know about ye, but Irish grammar has always been a mystery to me. The way words morph and change, all those prepositional pronouns, verbal nouns, the syntax etc. Trying to get some hard and fast rules for a foothold is like stepping into sand. It always gives way to an exception(s), and it's frustrating. Could we ever get someone who could teach this language properly, or is it actually so hard that we would need all that school time to learn it, but still not?

The other thing, Irish and general Irishness, needs to stop defining itself in terms of not being English, or whatever else, as it gives off this chippy, negative and backward attitude. If everybody in Ireland started speaking Irish tomorrow, there would be a huge influence on their syntax from English, and would have to be accepted. Languages interact, I'm afraid.

Dan_Solo · 04-07-2014 10:59PM

Alternating Current wrote: »

Can you show me a quote where I said it would improve grades in other subjects? Otherwise this is just waffle.

Shure.

Alternating Current wrote: »

Learning a second language makes it easier to learn other languages and helps to prevent cognitive decline.

If, as you claim, learning a second language such as Irish, makes it easier to learn further languages, surely this will improve your grades in these other languages? No?

Snake · 05-07-2014 11:55AM

shane7218 wrote: »

I did make up the points and I got the course I want. The point is why should I have to do extra work to take a subject that is totally useless and I have no interest in. If I dont want to do history I can CHOOSE not to. If I dont want to do science I can CHOOSE not to.

Yeah I hated maths we should be allowed choose to do it, we're so backwards no other country makes people learn their language even if it's not commonly spoken

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 12:33PM

GrayFox208 wrote: »

Yeah I hated maths we should be allowed choose to do it, we're so backwards no other country makes people learn their language even if it's not commonly spoken

Maths and English are NOT compulsory. If you have a problem with being forced to do them then your problem is with the school and NOT the state.

Nemeses · 05-07-2014 12:37PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Maths and English are NOT compulsory. If you have a problem with being forced to do them then your problem is with the school and NOT the state.

Erm wait?

They are mandatory subjects on both Junior and Leaving cert level..

How are they not compulsory?

Snake · 05-07-2014 12:38PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Maths and English are NOT compulsory. If you have a problem with being forced to do them then your problem is with the school and NOT the state.

I don't know what school you went to mate, but it must be off in imagination land.

Snake · 05-07-2014 12:47PM

shane7218 wrote: »

That is totally irrelevant. The point is there is no benefit to learning it in the real world for most people. Why not make everyone take physics

Physics is in your everyday life, so you should understand how it works. Is your argument always going to be "make everyone take science"? Grow up mate

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 01:18PM

Nemeses wrote: »

Erm wait?

They are mandatory subjects on both Junior and Leaving cert level..

How are they not compulsory?

GrayFox208 wrote: »

I don't know what school you went to mate, but it must be off in imagination land.

I also "had" to do Maths and English for LC. I believe most schools insist on it, more than likely due to University requirements. However I can't find anywhere on the department of education website where it says they are compulsory subjects

Students following the Leaving Certificate (Established) programme are required to study at least five subjects, one of which must be Irish unless an exemption applies [see Irish Exemption section of website]. In general, students take five or more subjects for examination. - See more at: http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Curriculum-and-Syllabus/Senior-Cycle-/#sthash.4ZCN9EXY.dpuf

Also this!!

Students must study Irish as part of their Junior Certificate and Leaving Certificate programmes in schools. Irish is the only subject that students must take as part of a Leaving Certificate course. - See more at: http://www.ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Post-Primary_Education/Review_of_Languages/#sthash.xJJQMQHT.dpuf

RandomName2 · 05-07-2014 02:26PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I also "had" to do Maths and English for LC. I believe most schools insist on it, more than likely due to University requirements. However I can't find anywhere on the department of education website where it says they are compulsory subjects

Also this!!

Really? I actually had no idea that this was the case.

Fwiw I think that Maths should probably be optional for LC. The everyday, essential mathematics is taught predominantly in primary school, and to a lesser extent in JC. The maths of the senior cycle is geared towards only certain sciences, engineering and financial professions, so there is a strong argument for it being optional. (Irish, meanwhile, is geared towards nothing!)

shruikan2553 · 05-07-2014 02:37PM

I would agree with making maths optional too. It goes beyond a day to day level needed and a lot of people dont even have the basics of the JC. Just ask someone 1+1+1+1-1x0 and watch how many people fail first year maths.
The basics of English could do with a good going over too. Poetry did nothing for me, I just learnt what the teacher said the poem meant. Hamlet was ok but I felt a critical thinking class that went into more general day to day stuff would be better.

Godeatsboogers · 05-07-2014 02:55PM

The time they spent teaching us 'An bhfuil céad agam dul amach go dtí an leithreas más é do thoil é', could have been spent teaching basic nutrition information so that we could control our diet better and time our evacuations with precision.

Nemeses · 05-07-2014 03:18PM

Interesting find.

Unless it is just expected but once you hit JC or LC, you have what was called options and you would choose additional subjects.

You can't choose Maths or English. It was just there.

RandomName2 · 05-07-2014 03:42PM

Godeatsboogers wrote: »

The time they spent teaching us 'An bhfuil céad agam dul amach go dtí an leithreas más é do thoil é', could have been spent teaching basic nutrition information so that we could control our diet better and time our bowel evacuations with precision.

FYP

Snake · 05-07-2014 06:22PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I also "had" to do Maths and English for LC. I believe most schools insist on it, more than likely due to University requirements. However I can't find anywhere on the department of education website where it says they are compulsory subjects

Also this!!

Never did leaving or junior cert but I was always told you fail maths you fail the exams.

FunLover18 · 05-07-2014 06:27PM

GrayFox208 wrote: »

Never did leaving or junior cert but I was always told you fail maths you fail the exams.

Lies! Vicious lies!

Overheal · 05-07-2014 06:53PM

shane7218 wrote: »

But what use is it ...For all intensive purpose's its a dead language

But what use is it? For all intensive purposes it is a dead language.

"its" is used in relation to say, "The cow still has its legs."

"it's" is used only ever for the contraction of "it is", eg. "It's still standing on its four legs."

/welcome

_Whimsical_ · 05-07-2014 06:58PM

Not some sort of bizarre jihadist style threat on all irish people then as the title suggests.
Ok, be as you were ...

pablomakaveli · 05-07-2014 07:06PM

I think the big issue is the way Irish is thought. I can't understand the logic in teaching a language by making you read stories or poems and then answer questions on them when people don't have a basic grasp on the language. It makes learning Irish a frustrating experience.

I honestly can't understand why the education system in Ireland continues to support this method when it has been a catastrophic failure.

I hated Irish in school as a result of this and it was only years later that i begun to regret the fact i'm not fluent in our native language. (I'm looking forward to the release of the Irish program on Duolingo and hopefully it'll help me improve my Irish).

FWIW i think Irish should be optional in Leaving Cert. There's no benefit to forcing it on people who struggle with it or hate it because that doesn't improve the situation. But there does need to be a massive overhaul in how it's thought because the language will continue to decline otherwise.

There should be a campaign to put pressure on the education system in Ireland to change how Irish is thought because they seem to be reluctant to get off there arses and do it.

Roquentin · 05-07-2014 07:09PM

GrayFox208 wrote: »

I don't know what school you went to mate, but it must be off in imagination land.

Clown College,
Stupid avenue,
Imagination Land

great school

Ficheall · 05-07-2014 07:21PM

Overheal wrote: »

But what use is it? For all intensive purposes it is a dead language.

"its" is used in relation to say, "The cow still has its legs."

"it's" is used only ever for the contraction of "it is", eg. "It's still standing on its four legs."

/welcome

I'm not sure what you were going for there, Overheal, but I think you missed part of it...

Iwasfrozen · 05-07-2014 07:26PM

GrayFox208 wrote: »

I don't know what school you went to mate, but it must be off in imagination land.

He's right. The only state mandated compulsory subject is Irish. It was the school that made you do Maths and English not the state.

Can we kill Irish once and for all

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