Can we kill Irish once and for all

partyguinness

shane7218 wrote: »

So your saying I don't appear smart enough to deserve a first class honors? Have you ever seen me work? Or are you basing your entire opinion on the language used on this thread. If so then that is pretty pathetic

That is how you have come across in your posts. Is 'pathetic' really the best word you can come up with? Lazy...:rolleyes:

BizzyC

shane7218 wrote: »

That is an entry requirement for a specific course. The Irish requirement is applied by the Dept of Education so that is totally different. Point is If I want to do languages in college I can CHOOSE not to do science but same cant be said If I want to do a science course

Yes it can, it depends on the institution.
Just because Dept of Ed requires you to sit the exam does not mean you have to study anything or spend time on it.
If the 3rd level institution you're aiming for doesn't require it, you're fine.

It's very difficult to fail pass level irish unless you really avoid any work in school.

topper75

Friend Computer wrote: »

"Fourteen words" is a slang term used by white nationalists to refer to a common mantra among them: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Childre."

The likes of the BNP and other nationalist parties around Europe usually talk up defending their culture and such to disguise their xenophobic agendas. I admit, I shouldn't have used that term but after witnessing the rise of such parties I just automatically link the two together.

This fear only holds water if we were looking at scenarios where non-nationals or new Irish were in any way actively excluded from learning the language by either the state or language preservationists.

My experience tells me the opposite is true.

Language proponents are honoured by the efforts of the non-Irish at learning Gaeilge, they are encouraged, and if any spirit is being fostered by it all - it is one of inclusivity.

kylith

House of Blaze wrote: »

I understand that alright, but there has been, what, a hundred years of trying to re-establish Irish for the sake of the national identity via the GAA etc?

And the fact that after 100 years there are still very very few who can speak the language or who do so on a regular basis is kind of incriminating of the Irish people in terms of showing how much they really care about it.

I'd call that more of an indictment of the way Irish is taught than anything else. I think there's a big problem with the teaching of all languages in this country, they tend to be taught by rote rather than in a natural way.

I was able to say please and thank you and ask for things like a glass of milk and other basic things in Irish before I went to school, after I started school I lost it all because my mother didn't have enough herself to keep teaching me so left it to the school who were more concerned with reciting verbs than using the language.

House of Blaze wrote: »

Also, if for example, the language had been allowed to die off, you wouldn't feel ashamed at having no use of the language today.

Scots spoke another dialect of gaelic which has essentially been allowed to die but I doubt you'd find many scots who are ashamed of the fact.

I mightn't feel ashamed about it, but I think I would feel sad that an ancient language, spoken on this island for hundreds of years, was no more and that the only people who spoke it were linguists. I'm sure that there are plenty of Scottish people who would feel the same about Scots Gaelic.

On a related note I saw a report some years ago on the death of the last native Scots Gaelic speaker and I was struck by how intelligible he was, I know it's a dialect of the same language but he was much easier to understand than an Ulster Gaelic speaker.

kylith

timetogo wrote: »

Saying "Can I go to the toilet please" is enough for the foreigner to hear. They hardly want a full length conversation in a language they don't understand.
I did my Leaving 20 years ago. That's all I can say in Irish now and I've never had the opportunity to need it more (except the odd time I get a leaflet from the ESB and half of it is printed in Irish and I've opened the wrong end).

I've no problem with Irish being taught in schools. But it should be an option. I spent years learning poetry and novels in Irish when I could barely string a sentence together (I'd hope it's not taught like that anymore).

I'm not talking about impressing people by reciting Cu Culainn sagas or anything, I'm talking about the feeling of knowing that I can barely string together a sentence in a language that my ancestors spoke because I couldn't be arsed with it when I was being taught it.

Saipanne

No, I think it will serve as a unifying cultural tool in an increasingly multicultural Ireland. Sort of like a legal cultural exam. It could prove important to social cohesion, in future.

topper75

partyguinness wrote: »

A more serious issue facing the Irish educational system is the stranglehold of the Catholic Church and the amount of time wasted on religion especially at primary level. Now that is a waste of time.

The Church needs to be kicked out first. Yes a different debate.

Though we look back now with discomfort at the relationship between this state and the RC church through the decades, it is worth making the point that no religion was ever appointed as the state religion.

The Irish language, however, is a state language. This is very much enshrined in the constitution (itself endorsed by the electorate). The electoral mandate for Irish as a state language alone merits its position as a core curriculum subject. In fact the constitution appears to give it primacy as the first language.

timetogo

kylith wrote: »

I'm not talking about impressing people by reciting Cu Culainn sagas or anything, I'm talking about the feeling of knowing that I can barely string together a sentence in a language that my ancestors spoke because I couldn't be arsed with it when I was being taught it.

That's why I think it should be optional. Teach it to people who want to learn it (or kids of parents who feel it's important to them) and let the other kids use the time for an extra subject or something more beneficial to them.

partyguinness

topper75 wrote: »

Though we look back now with discomfort at the relationship between this state and the RC church through the decades, it is worth making the point that no religion was ever appointed as the state religion.

The Irish language, however, is a state language. This is very much enshrined in the constitution (itself endorsed by the electorate). The electoral mandate for Irish as a state language alone merits its position as a core curriculum subject. In fact the constitution appears to give it primacy as the first language.

Yes, it wasnt appointed as the State religion. DeV resisted McQuaid's attempts at this but the Catholic Church was given an express 'special' place in the Constitution when first enacted (since gone).

I posted the question to the OP earlier about voting out Irish under the Constitution and the likely result...he didnt answer that. My point being that while the majority do not use the language, I would be very surprised if we voted to remove it's special position as the OP claimed that most do not care.

We are a funny bunch really.

shane7218

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes, it wasnt appointed as the State religion. DeV resisted McQuaid's attempts at this but the Catholic Church was given an express 'special' place in the Constitution when first enacted (since gone).

I posted the question to the OP earlier about voting out Irish under the Constitution and the likely result...he didnt answer that. My point being that while the majority do not use the language, I would be very surprised if we voted to remove it's special position as the OP claimed that most do not care.

We are a funny bunch really.

I actually never claimed people would want it removed like that. I want it removed as a mandatory subject for people in leaving cert cycle and I believe that will result in it's death. That is my opinion but regardless people should not have to continue doing it for leaving cert if they don't want to

partyguinness

I believe that a lot of the anomosity toward Irish in schools is the teaching methods.

Most of the Irish teachers (Mags, Maire, Donal, Sean, Eileens et al) were complete Nazis ramming teaching pretty depressing topics down our throats.

partyguinness

shane7218 wrote: »

I actually never claimed people would want it removed like that. I want it removed as a mandatory subject for people in leaving cert cycle and I believe that will result in it's death. That is my opinion but regardless people should not have to continue doing it for leaving cert if they don't want to

I know you didnt claim that. I put that to you for your opinion if the people cared so little.

As far as it's death is concerned, is that the result you would want in a generation or so?

shane7218

partyguinness wrote: »

I know you didnt claim that. I put that to you for your opinion if the people cared so little.

As far as it's death is concerned, is that the result you would want in a generation or so?

I understand that a lot of people see it as a part of our national identity and of course it would be a shame to lose something like that. But if people choose to let it die then that is their choice. If they dont want to learn it then that should be accepted and not try and force it on people.

Plus it's not only the language that defines us as some people seem to believe

mywaec

I agree with the notion of improve the teaching method rather than remove the language. Irish speaking schools have become extremely popular and have a very high standard of education. If the language itself was as bad as some people are claiming, there would be a huge dropout rate from these schools and they would quickly die out. Instead they are going from strength to strength with secondary schools popping up around the place too. Maybe some of their teaching methods should be brought into english speaking schools.

Hotfail.com

shane7218 wrote: »

I actually never claimed people would want it removed like that. I want it removed as a mandatory subject for people in leaving cert cycle and I believe that will result in it's death. That is my opinion but regardless people should not have to continue doing it for leaving cert if they don't want to

If it's a choice between annoying some 16-18 year olds for 3 years or killing the Irish language I imagine most people would choose the first option...

Grayson

partyguinness wrote: »

I know you didnt claim that. I put that to you for your opinion if the people cared so little.

As far as it's death is concerned, is that the result you would want in a generation or so?

If we can't teach it then it's only fair.

We've been forcing kids to learn it for what, 80 years? And the numbers speaking are dropping with every census. Even the areas where it was spoken are shrinking.

Just think of the time that's been wasted on it so far. We've been forcing kids to attend classes (I won't say learn) and it's been pretty ineffective.

I say change the syllabus to make it more about conversational irish and get rid of it being compulsory at the leaving. If that fails to work then just give up. At that point it will be 100 years wasted.

shane7218

Hotfail.com wrote: »

If it's a choice between annoying some 16-18 year olds for 3 years or killing the Irish language I imagine most people would choose the first option...

We learn it for 8 years before the leaving cert. Is that not enough ?

Hotfail.com

shane7218 wrote: »

We learn it for 8 years before the leaving cert. Is that not enough ?

You said you believe removing it as a compulsory subject for the leaving cert cycle would kill it off, so therefore I think the extra 3 years of mild annoyance (that's all it is) for people doing the leaving cert is worth not seeing it die.

Chancer3001

You're arguing against your own thread title.

shane7218

Hotfail.com wrote: »

You said you believe removing it as a compulsory subject for the leaving cert cycle would kill it off, so therefore I think the extra 3 years of mild annoyance (that's all it is) for people doing the leaving cert is worth not seeing it die.

Your missing the point. If people decide to let it die then that is their CHOICE. Who are you or anyone else to demand they waste time learning something that they dont want to learn.

partyguinness

Grayson wrote: »

If we can't teach it then it's only fair.

We've been forcing kids to learn it for what, 80 years? And the numbers speaking are dropping with every census. Even the areas where it was spoken are shrinking.

Just think of the time that's been wasted on it so far. We've been forcing kids to attend classes (I won't say learn) and it's been pretty ineffective.

I say change the syllabus to make it more about conversational irish and get rid of it being compulsory at the leaving. If that fails to work then just give up. At that point it will be 100 years wasted.

No it's not:

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=7882

Not everyone feels like they are being forced and yes of course, there are people who resent having to take Irish. Personally, I believe that some parents are to blame for this.

'Give up'- I am glad you are not on my team!

shane7218

partyguinness wrote: »

No it's not:

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=7882

Not everyone feels like they are being forced and yes of course, there are people who resent having to take Irish. Personally, I believe that some parents are to blame for this.

'Give up'- I am glad you are not on my team!

Do you honestly believe that 1.7 million can speak Irish ? :rolleyes:

Grayson

partyguinness wrote: »

No it's not:

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=7882

Not everyone feels like they are being forced and yes of course, there are people who resent having to take Irish. Personally, I believe that some parents are to blame for this.

'Give up'- I am glad you are not on my team!

I said to give up after 100 years.

If you think that's not long enough, I'm glad you're not making policy decisions for the economy.

Incidentally, where did those 2006 figures come from? the census is every 10 years. If they're not comparing like with like, then it may be a simple statistical error. There is only a small in crease of a few thousand (I'm looking at the figures who speak it outside the education system).

Hotfail.com

shane7218 wrote: »

Your missing the point. If people decide to let it die then that is their CHOICE. Who are you or anyone else to demand they waste time learning something that they dont want to learn.

I never demanded anything.

Who is anyone to do anything? That's one of the worst arguments you could have come up with. Who are you to say we should stop teaching Irish for the leaving cert? You might as well have just told me to "shut up".

shane7218

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I never demanded anything.

Who is anyone to do anything? That's one of the worst arguments you could have come up with. Who are you to say we should stop teaching Irish for the leaving cert? You might as well have just told me to "shut up".

But you are saying that we should keep Irish compulsory. I have no right to decide for anyone else is my EXACT point. That decision should be left to each person to make for themselves

kylith

Grayson wrote: »

If we can't teach it then it's only fair.

We've been forcing kids to learn it for what, 80 years? And the numbers speaking are dropping with every census. Even the areas where it was spoken are shrinking.

Just think of the time that's been wasted on it so far. We've been forcing kids to attend classes (I won't say learn) and it's been pretty ineffective.

I say change the syllabus to make it more about conversational irish and get rid of it being compulsory at the leaving. If that fails to work then just give up. At that point it will be 100 years wasted.

Speaking it at all or speaking it as a first language? I hear a lot more people, particularly young people, speaking it on trams and trains than I used to.

partyguinness

shane7218 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that 1.7 million can speak Irish ? :rolleyes:

Well let's ask them....oh wait that is what the census is for...:D

Sure they may not be Peig Sayers but that's a lot of people not caring.

partyguinness

Grayson wrote: »

I said to give up after 100 years.

If you think that's not long enough, I'm glad you're not making policy decisions for the economy.

Incidentally, where did those 2006 figures come from? the census is every 10 years. If they're not comparing like with like, then it may be a simple statistical error. There is only a small in crease of a few thousand (I'm looking at the figures who speak it outside the education system).

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the 2006 figures probably came from the 2006 Census....:eek:

partyguinness

shane7218 wrote: »

But you are saying that we should keep Irish compulsory. I have no right to decide for anyone else is my EXACT point. That decision should be left to each person to make for themselves

Are you familar with the phrase 'democracy'?

Grayson

partyguinness wrote: »

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the 2006 figures probably came from the 2006 Census....:eek:

Just googled and saw that there was one then.