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SSM Referendum Spring 2015

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    #152
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    This posting typifies the issues I have with LGBT supporters of this referendum- in your argument anyone who has a private view which opposes your own on the gay marriage issue is branded a homophobe ? You then proceed to insult anyone of Christian belief with your " citing your imaginary god as an excuse" comment. I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless, as I reckon many gay people would also claim to be Christian - maybe I'm wrong on that one ?
    I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs ! Similarly, the fundamentalist rants we will hear from the opposing side won't get my support either , result - think I'll give it a miss altogether

    It's not really a Christian belief though is it? It's in the bible a couple of times right next to the bit which says it's an abomination to eat shellfish and wear clothes made out two different pieces of cloth :rolleyes:

    Plenty of passages in the bible that are inconvenient to most Christians and are conveniently ignored, yet they seem obsessed with the gay thing. What does that tell you?

    If it was that important, Jesus would have mentioned it, but he didn't. I think he cared more about the loving others as yourself thing.


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    #153
    dirtyden
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭dirtyden


    Why is this a referendum and why can they not just legislate for this?

    Well in my opinion it's a lack of backbone amongst politicians to directly stand over something like this for fear of alienating anyone. They want to hand the decision back to the voters and then take credit for their enlightened stance if it passes or if it does not take credit for putting it to the people at least.

    A referendum is a waste of money for something which should just be legislated for, and a referendum may only give increased attention to divisive groups with ugly opinions.


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    #154
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Nodin wrote: »
    At its most basic -

    You will not be required to marry gay couples, or marry somebody of the same gender. By voting against, you aren't protecting yourself, you're imposing on somebody else.

    Thanks for the ABC guide to SSM - would have never guessed !


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    #155
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    dirtyden wrote: »
    Why is this a referendum and why can they not just legislate for this?

    Well in my opinion it's a lack of backbone amongst politicians to directly stand over something like this for fear of alienating anyone. They want to hand the decision back to the voters and then take credit for their enlightened stance if it passes or if it does not take credit for putting it to the people at least.

    A referendum is a waste of money for something which should just be legislated for, and a referendum may only give increased attention to divisive groups with ugly opinions.


    I'm loathe to say this but a referendum is the best way forward. Legalising it opens it to countless legal challenges from well funded lobby groups.


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    #156
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    Thanks for the ABC guide to SSM - would have never guessed !

    I'm here to help. Usually.

    Now, seeing as you aren't required to do anything prohibited by either your own preferences and/or religion/faith, whats the problem with the gay marriage?


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    #157
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    dirtyden wrote: »
    Why is this a referendum and why can they not just legislate for this?

    Well in my opinion it's a lack of backbone amongst politicians to directly stand over something like this for fear of alienating anyone. They want to hand the decision back to the voters and then take credit for their enlightened stance if it passes or if it does not take credit for putting it to the people at least.

    A referendum is a waste of money for something which should just be legislated for, and a referendum may only give increased attention to divisive groups with ugly opinions.

    In fairness, isn't there that 'family' stuff in the constitution? If they didn't have a referendum Iona or someone would be taking it to the Supreme court or something before the ink was dry


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    #158
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    Camron Stale Witch wrote: »
    In fairness, isn't there that 'family' stuff in the constitution? If they didn't have a referendum Iona or someone would be taking it to the Supreme court or something before the ink was dry

    Yeah there is. The state pledges to protect the family...unless you're a same sex family at the moment.


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    #159
    RayM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭RayM


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    This posting typifies the issues I have with LGBT supporters of this referendum- in your argument anyone who has a private view which opposes your own on the gay marriage issue is branded a homophobe ? You then proceed to insult anyone of Christian belief with your " citing your imaginary god as an excuse" comment. I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless, as I reckon many gay people would also claim to be Christian - maybe I'm wrong on that one ?
    I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs ! Similarly, the fundamentalist rants we will hear from the opposing side won't get my support either , result - think I'll give it a miss altogether

    If someone votes against marriage equality, for religious reasons, in what way are they less homophobic than the Christian fundamentalists who scream and rant about it?

    If a religious person isn't a homophobe, but just can't bring themselves to actively support equality, then the best thing they could do is simply abstain from voting altogether. If you vote against, you are voting to deprive gay people of equal rights, and are therefore homophobic.


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    #160
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    This posting typifies the issues I have with LGBT supporters of this referendum- in your argument anyone who has a private view which opposes your own on the gay marriage issue is branded a homophobe ? You then proceed to insult anyone of Christian belief with your " citing your imaginary god as an excuse" comment. I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless, as I reckon many gay people would also claim to be Christian - maybe I'm wrong on that one ?
    I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs ! Similarly, the fundamentalist rants we will hear from the opposing side won't get my support either , result - think I'll give it a miss altogether

    It's a very tricky point to make but essentially it boils down to:

    Yes you have the right to practice your Christian faith
    No you don't have the right to force that faith on others who don't share your views.
    Unfortunately by voting according to your Christian faith in the upcoming referendum you are forcing that faith onto others.

    Now this isn't aimed specifically at you but rather its aimed at those who would allow their religion to influence their decision on what way they'll vote.

    Ultimately allowing State sanctioned SSM will have no impact whatsoever on your religion


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    #161
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    For people here who justify their opposition to SSM using religion, just think there are people in the Middle East doing the exact same thing as you are when justifying hanging or stoning of people for things like marrying a person of a different religion.

    Two very different situations, but their core premise is frighteningly identical.

    You don't see how you're doing anything wrong, and neither do they.


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    #162
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    What a load of cobblers!!

    The electorate have the right to do whatever they so choose with their voting rights, be it a protest vote, spoiled vote or ya know.... vote against a proposal you intend to vote for.

    Of course they do - as I said, you have every right to act the gowl, but that is not the spirit of democracy or, as you put it, "pure democracy".


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    #163
    DazMarz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,493 ✭✭✭DazMarz


    Legs.Eleven wrote: »
    I'll be flying home to vote yes especially (although I know that displeases many - fcuk yiz :P)

    G'wan the Legs!!! :D


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    #164
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,715 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Muise... wrote: »
    Of course they do - as I said, you have every right to act the gowl, but that is not the spirit of democracy or, as you put it, "pure democracy".

    Acting the gowl= not voting the way I want.


    Got it now.


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    #165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't know anyone under 60 who'd oppose SSM. I know people over 60 who'll vote though, and a much smaller proportion of younger people who will.


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    #166
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm here to help. Usually.

    Now, seeing as you aren't required to do anything prohibited by either your own preferences and/or religion/faith, whats the problem with the gay marriage?

    I don't have a problem with gay marriage , my issue is with those who from their own conscience and convictions ( religious or otherwise) are being labelled as homophobic, stupid, looney, intolerant etc . There are many good and decent Christian people of various religions who will vote against this legislation out of deeply held beliefs and who are not homophobic or stupid either.
    It's the labelling by LGBT I dont like . If all Catholics who follow catholic teaching vote against this legislation, are you really saying that each of these voters are homophobic or stupid or both ? I didn't think that having a conscience about something would be so objectionable to LGBT !
    As for myself I'm not anti gay or anti SSM, just anti those who name call and insult anyone who has a different view or who admits to believe in an "imaginary god" as described earlier in a posting here .
    As for my voting intentions , jury still out on the marriage thing, probably will support the legislation but not impressed with the tone of the LGBT spiel so far - might impress the converted but dunno how it will go down with your average catholic who has concerns about this issue to be labelled stupid or homophobic , might just backfire !


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    #167
    fran17
    Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭fran17


    the problem with attempting to gather any credible data surrounding how this referendum would go is that any individual who makes the slightest leaning towards voting no in the public domain is automatically labelled a "homophobe" and a vicious attack and character assassination campaign by the pro lobby groups ensue.or likewise when the good people of Ireland are polled on the street they now feel they cannot give there true opinion because we're now told its not politically correct to disagree with this issue.
    on the day of this referendum people can vote in secret with the security of knowing that they wont be vilified in the polling booth for expressing there democratic right to have a different opinion.i believe this referendum will be defeated


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    #168
    The Th!ng
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Th!ng


    I'll be voting against ssm.


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    #169
    dirtyden
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭dirtyden


    Daith wrote: »
    I'm loathe to say this but a referendum is the best way forward. Legalising it opens it to countless legal challenges from well funded lobby groups.

    Had not thought of it that way, but that makes a lot of sense.


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    #170
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    I say NO

















































    Not another referendum


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    #171
    alan partridge aha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    fran17 wrote: »
    the problem with attempting to gather any credible data surrounding how this referendum would go is that any individual who makes the slightest leaning towards voting no in the public domain is automatically labelled a "homophobe" and a vicious attack and character assassination campaign by the pro lobby groups ensue.or likewise when the good people of Ireland are polled on the street they now feel they cannot give there true opinion because we're now told its not politically correct to disagree with this issue.
    on the day of this referendum people can vote in secret with the security of knowing that they wont be vilified in the polling booth for expressing there democratic right to have a different opinion.i believe this referendum will be defeated

    I agree, when people go vote in the privacy of the booth they might vote no.

    Most people who will be voting no are not going to shout it from the rooftops. However I do believe it will pass but not by a great majority.


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    #172
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with gay marriage , my issue is with those who from their own conscience and convictions ( religious or otherwise) are being labelled as homophobic, stupid, looney, intolerant etc . There are many good and decent Christian people of various religions who will vote against this legislation out if deeply held beliefs and who are not homophobic or stupid either. .........

    By blocking something that will not affect them, they are - essentially - acting in an intolerant manner. If they were being forced into gay marriage, they'd be right to object, but as it stands, they are imposing their belief on others.

    Those of us of a certain age are all too familiar with that kind of mentality prevailing, and affecting music, cinema, TV, availability of contraception, divorce - all of Irish life.


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    #173
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    fran17 wrote: »
    the problem with attempting to gather any credible data surrounding how this referendum would go is that any individual who makes the slightest leaning towards voting no in the public domain is automatically labelled a "homophobe" and a vicious attack and character assassination campaign by the pro lobby groups ensue.or likewise when the good people of Ireland are polled on the street they now feel they cannot give there true opinion because we're now told its not politically correct to disagree with this issue.
    on the day of this referendum people can vote in secret with the security of knowing that they wont be vilified in the polling booth for expressing there democratic right to have a different opinion.i believe this referendum will be defeated


    I genuinely cant see it happening (id say well enough if I was voting no...ive stood over more controversial/emotive points)

    cant see any logical/practical reason to vote no....so emm ill vote yes....this will fly through with a 65+% yes vote...If I could get good odds in bookies...id back at least 65% yes vote

    I know of no older person who are as homophopic/bigoted as its made out....they mightn't fully be political correct/give needless/unnesscessary insults (just age-gap IMO)...but they wouldn't be as bitter to actively go out and vote against equal marriage rights


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    #174
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    I'm an optimist and although I suspect the numbers that will vote no are probably underrepresented in the opinion polls, I think it will pass nonetheless. Definitely not something to get complacent over though.


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    #175
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,793 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Nodin wrote: »
    By blocking something that will not affect them, they are - essentially - acting in an intolerant manner. If they were being forced into gay marriage, they'd be right to object, but as it stands, they are imposing their belief on others.

    Those of us of a certain age are all too familiar with that kind of mentality prevailing, and affecting music, cinema, TV, availability of contraception, divorce - all of Irish life.

    You call it intolerant. They could argue that in their thinking marriage means man woman and is designed for procreation in a regulated manner. Or they might just be homophobic, as is a feature of society worldwide and through all time. Whatever the result on the day it will be whoever bothers to vote will decide and all sides will have to accept it.


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    #176
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with gay marriage , my issue is with those who from their own conscience and convictions ( religious or otherwise) are being labelled as homophobic, stupid, looney, intolerant etc . There are many good and decent Christian people of various religions who will vote against this legislation out of deeply held beliefs and who are not homophobic or stupid either.
    It's the labelling by LGBT I dont like . If all Catholics who follow catholic teaching vote against this legislation, are you really saying that each of these voters are homophobic or stupid or both ? I didn't think that having a conscience about something would be so objectionable to LGBT !
    As for myself I'm not anti gay or anti SSM, just anti those who name call and insult anyone who has a different view or who admits to believe in an "imaginary god" as described earlier in a posting here .
    As for my voting intentions , jury still out on the marriage thing, probably will support the legislation but not impressed with the tone of the LGBT spiel so far - might impress the converted but dunno how it will go down with your average catholic who has concerns about this issue to be labelled stupid or homophobic , might just backfire !

    A fair point but personally I think that the conservative side have oversold that element to things a bit but it is an unfortunate consequence of people reacting irrationally with irrational insults to being irrationally insulted. Irrationality never leads to constructive debate.


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    #177
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Daith wrote: »
    Yeah there is. The state pledges to protect the family...unless you're a same sex family at the moment.

    Not quite but yes in a roundabout way

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #178
    westernfrenzy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭westernfrenzy


    It needs to pass so that the future generations of LGBT teenagers won't have to worry about being denied a basic right


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    #179
    jaja321
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    I cannot wait for the opportunity to vote yes on this. Its been far too long coming.


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    #180
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You call it intolerant. They could argue that in their thinking marriage means man woman and is designed for procreation in a regulated manner..

    ....which again imposes their belief on others who think differently by denying them the right to marry. They, however, are free to carry on acting in accordance with their beliefs regardless of the outcome.


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    #181
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with gay marriage , my issue is with those who from their own conscience and convictions ( religious or otherwise) are being labelled as homophobic, stupid, looney, intolerant etc . There are many good and decent Christian people of various religions who will vote against this legislation out of deeply held beliefs and who are not homophobic or stupid either.
    Are voters being forced into gay marriage? It would seem it from the way you're talking. I might have 'deeply held beliefs' about ketchup being atrocious but I'm not going to act offended if others eat it, am I?


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