SSM Referendum Spring 2015

P_1

Woodville56 wrote: »

What if a Catholic or other religious persuasion votes no in conscience because of their church's teaching, that's a good and valid reason in their book. Doesn't mean that they are bigoted, homophobic, stupid or idiots ( words uses in this thread) to describe opponents of the SSM referendum. In my view a distinction must be drawn between those who hold anti SSM views on a personal level and those who publicly campaign against the legislation.

True but people voting according to the religious beliefs that they hold really shouldn't have any influence over the lives of others. Squaring that circle is pretty impossible though

seamus

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I hope I'm wrong about this. Surely at this stage everyone knows at least one openly gay person whose rights they'd want to fight for.

Seaneh wrote: »

I think it's going to be a very, very easy victory for the yes side.

It's an easy victory, if they play it right.
They need to mobilise the LGBT groups, mobile every gay person in the country, even if they have zero interest in getting married, to speak to their friends and family, to get their friends and family to fight for gay marriage. Why? This is not really about gay marriage. It's about rights. It's about the rights of all gay people to be treated like human fncking beings and not be denied access to anything purely on the basis of their sexuality.

Homophobes talk about gay marriage being a "slippery slope". I hope it is, I hope gay marriage leads to adoptive rights, inheritance rights, next-of-kin rights, taxation rights, and all those little things that everyone else takes for granted but gay people are denied purely because of their sexuality.

It's going to be dirty, of course it is. There is no argument against gay marriage which doesn't boil down to, "Change is bad mmmkay" or, "Gay people are icky, I don't want them spreading their ick around". So in the absence of any substance to their argument, the anti crowd will resort to downright lies, distractions, claims of religious oppression, appeals to tradition and of course the slippery slope fallacy.

Naturally we'll have whatsherface waxing lyrical in the Irish Times about the good old days and how our grandparents would be disgusted, and the Iona institute will once again pull their nepotist strings and somehow get their face on every TV discussion on the topic, and will get unchallenged column space in the Irish Times, even though 99% of the population neither agree with nor want to hear their ultra-hardline catholic bull****.

But hopefully it's that hate that will spur the gay people of Ireland on even harder. They will use all of that homophobia and channel it into the satisfaction of giving them all a big two fingers when the rest of the Irish population validate their existence and tell them, "You're one of us. You're a human fncking being."

Foxhound38

Woodville56 wrote: »

What if a Catholic or other religious persuasion votes no in conscience because of their church's teaching, that's a good and valid reason in their book. Doesn't mean that they are bigoted, homophobic, stupid or idiots ( words uses in this thread) to describe opponents of the SSM referendum. In my view a distinction must be drawn between those who hold anti SSM views on a personal level and those who publicly campaign against the legislation.

But if the Church's view on this matter is homophobic (which it is), and they vote because of a sincere belief in the Church's teachings on the subject, what does that make them?

Zed Bank

seamus wrote: »

It's an easy victory, if they play it right.
They need to mobilise the LGBT groups, mobile every gay person in the country, even if they have zero interest in getting married, to speak to their friends and family, to get their friends and family to fight for gay marriage. Why? This is not really about gay marriage. It's about rights. It's about the rights of all gay people to be treated like human fncking beings and not be denied access to anything purely on the basis of their sexuality.

Homophobes talk about gay marriage being a "slippery slope". I hope it is, I hope gay marriage leads to adoptive rights, inheritance rights, next-of-kin rights, taxation rights, and all those little things that everyone else takes for granted but gay people are denied purely because of their sexuality.

It's going to be dirty, of course it is. There is no argument against gay marriage which doesn't boil down to, "Change is bad mmmkay" or, "Gay people are icky, I don't want them spreading their ick around". So in the absence of any substance to their argument, the anti crowd will resort to downright lies, distractions, claims of religious oppression, appeals to tradition and of course the slippery slope fallacy.

Naturally we'll have whatsherface waxing lyrical in the Irish Times about the good old days and how our grandparents would be disgusted, and the Iona institute will once again pull their nepotist strings and somehow get their face on every TV discussion on the topic, and will get unchallenged column space in the Irish Times, even though 99% of the population neither agree with nor want to hear their ultra-hardline catholic bull****.

But hopefully it's that hate that will spur the gay people of Ireland on even harder. They will use all of that homophobia and channel it into the satisfaction of giving them all a big two fingers when the rest of the Irish population validate their existence and tell them, "You're one of us. You're a human fncking being."

Well fcuking said!

Daith

seamus wrote: »

Homophobes talk about gay marriage being a "slippery slope". I hope it is, I hope gay marriage leads to adoptive rights, inheritance rights, next-of-kin rights, taxation rights, and all those little things that everyone else takes for granted but gay people are denied purely because of their sexuality.

Actually adoption rights should come in before the referendum. That bill being passed is more important to SSM than the referendum.

Foxhound38

seamus wrote: »

It's an easy victory, if they play it right.
They need to mobilise the LGBT groups, mobile every gay person in the country, even if they have zero interest in getting married, to speak to their friends and family, to get their friends and family to fight for gay marriage. Why? This is not really about gay marriage. It's about rights. It's about the rights of all gay people to be treated like human fncking beings and not be denied access to anything purely on the basis of their sexuality.

Homophobes talk about gay marriage being a "slippery slope". I hope it is, I hope gay marriage leads to adoptive rights, inheritance rights, next-of-kin rights, taxation rights, and all those little things that everyone else takes for granted but gay people are denied purely because of their sexuality.

It's going to be dirty, of course it is. There is no argument against gay marriage which doesn't boil down to, "Change is bad mmmkay" or, "Gay people are icky, I don't want them spreading their ick around". So in the absence of any substance to their argument, the anti crowd will resort to downright lies, distractions, claims of religious oppression, appeals to tradition and of course the slippery slope fallacy.

Naturally we'll have whatsherface waxing lyrical in the Irish Times about the good old days and how our grandparents would be disgusted, and the Iona institute will once again pull their nepotist strings and somehow get their face on every TV discussion on the topic, and will get unchallenged column space in the Irish Times, even though 99% of the population neither agree with nor want to hear their ultra-hardline catholic bull****.

But hopefully it's that hate that will spur the gay people of Ireland on even harder. They will use all of that homophobia and channel it into the satisfaction of giving them all a big two fingers when the rest of the Irish population validate their existence and tell them, "You're one of us. You're a human fncking being."

Well said - post of the thread so far IMO

DazMarz

In fairness, I think this is an issue that all the major and minor political parties in Ireland will agree on. It is a fact that Fine Gael, Labour, Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, The Green Party, People Before Profit, The Socialist Party, etc. all support it (officially at least; some individual members [particularly of FF/FG] may not).

The extreme right-wing will obviously oppose. And no better mob than to get as dirty, filthy and insidious as possible, while all the time smiling and being oh so wholesome and saccharine sweet as the religious right.

The key point to remember is that those caught in the middle are the ones who will swing it. This referendum will have its core supporters (LGBT people themselves and their supporters) and its core opponents (religious conservatives). They will vote the way that is expected.

However, there is a vast swath of society who will hold the result of this referendum in their hands. And they might not even realise how crucial their vote could be, either way. The ordinary, everyday, heterosexual people of Ireland.

Their opinion may not be strong either way, and their indifference, apathy or ennui will swing it for the "No" side (who will be damn sure to squeeze every single vote that they can out of it).

However, if their sense of decency, their empathy and their sense of doing the right thing is appealed to correctly and if they are convinced to actually go and vote, this will swing it for the "Yes" side (who may struggle to get their key demographic [young people] out to vote).

It will be a tight, tight result in either direction. With any luck, it will pass. I will be sorely disappointed if it does not pass. It will make absolutely zero impact upon marriage, zero impact upon straight people, zero impact on anything. Except having a huge impact upon the LGBT community, especially the slightly older set who are most likely in long-term, monogamous, loving relationships and who would so dearly love the protection and legitimacy that comes with being able to marry. Only someone with a twisted sense of morality would deny happiness to the LGBT community, which, in fairness, has been one of the most downtrodden and maligned minorities since time immemorial.

The "Yes" side needs to remember one very important thing; remain calm, quiet, dignified and rise above it all. Don't descend to the gutter-level the "No" side will almost surely descend to. Fighting fire with fire is not a good thing in this case. Irish people do not like negative campaigning, as a general rule. Let the "No" side have at it. It will be horrible and unpleasant. Like others, I would worry about the mental health impacts upon young, innocent LGBT kids, who may never have know the hatred and vitriol of certain, homophobic sections of society. It will be, sadly, a very rude awakening.

There is no reason, not one, for people to vote "No" other than pure bigotry. Really and truly. Be it the vitriolic kind (think Fred Phelps) or just because it's the Catholic thing to do and that's all they no. "The Sanctity Of Marriage". Oh please. Henry VIII killed that one stone dead back in the 1500's, so let's not even try that one. Straight people have done far more to damage the so-called "sanctity" of marriage (divorce? adultery? wedding photos?) than gay people ever will. In fact, I think that for LGBT people, their marriages will mean so much more to them, will be far more monogamous and will be far longer lasting than straight people's. Why? Simple: when you have had to fight and struggle for something, it means so much more to you than if you just had it to begin with.

To quote the Ragin' Cajun, Mr. James Carville, "When I first heard about gay marriage, I was against it. Then, I discovered that it wasn't compulsory." Nobody is going to force gay marriage upon anyone. Nobody is going to marry their boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever unless they really, really want to. And nobody is going to go around corrupting straight kids and forcing them to marry each other. That is just right-wing, religious scare tactics.

This referendum, I believe, has far more at stake than just the issue of Same Sex Marriage. It will be a further validation of the progressing liberalisation of Ireland. From beneath the jackboot of Catholic conservatism. As sure as the Divorce Referendum in 1995 (hard to believe that 20 years ago, you couldn't get divorced in this country) helped move this country forward, as will this referendum. If it passes, that is. If this referendum does not pass, it will be a grim indictment of a conservative, let's-not-change-things attitude. I hope this does not happen. I really, really do.

I would nearly go so far as to say that if this referendum does not pass, I will be ashamed to be Irish. For the simple reason that this is not something that "happened" and was not known about and little could be done about. It is in our hands, as a society, as a nation. We hold the keys to the kingdom, we have all the aces. It is up to us. And if we fail, it will be on our collective heads. No, I will go as far as to say it; I will be ashamed of this country if this referendum does not pass. It would be criminal, absolutely criminal, for this not to pass.

Does the Bible not teach us unconditional love? Are we not supposed to do unto others as we would have them do unto us? Surely, by giving equal rights to the minority, we are proving the true Christian ideal of love for our fellow man (and woman!).

A bit out of context, but I will close with this extract from a speech by JFK. I think it is pretty apt at this moment, in the spirit of "do the right thing".

"For in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's futures. And we are all mortal." -John Fitzgerald Kennedy, The American University Speech, 1963

RayM

Woodville56 wrote: »

In my view a distinction must be drawn between those who hold anti SSM views on a personal level and those who publicly campaign against the legislation.

I'm not sure that there is a distinction. I mean, take David Quinn of the Iona Institute for instance... It's likely that he'll be publicly campaigning against the legislation. Does that make him more of a homophobe than someone who shares his views, but chooses not to air them publicly?

If you vote against equal marriage, you're actively attempting to deny equal rights to gay people. Citing your imaginary god as an excuse just isn't valid.

Woodville56

Zed Bank wrote: »

That's not an argument. That's using religion to justify your intolerance.

I beg to differ on that ! It's making a decision informed by one's conscience based on religious beliefs. If that's interpreted as being intolerant, then your position appears to be that anyone who professes to hold religious beliefs is an intolerant of your views?
You're right that the SSM legislation won't effect the status of Catholic marriage and on that basis I expect most Catholics won't bother one way or the other with voting on the day. I expect the "fundamentalist few" will make all the noise though !

dxhound2005

seamus wrote: »

It's an easy victory, if they play it right.
They need to mobilise the LGBT groups, mobile every gay person in the country, even if they have zero interest in getting married, to speak to their friends and family, to get their friends and family to fight for gay marriage. Why? This is not really about gay marriage. It's about rights. It's about the rights of all gay people to be treated like human fncking beings and not be denied access to anything purely on the basis of their sexuality.

Homophobes talk about gay marriage being a "slippery slope". I hope it is, I hope gay marriage leads to adoptive rights, inheritance rights, next-of-kin rights, taxation rights, and all those little things that everyone else takes for granted but gay people are denied purely because of their sexuality.

It's going to be dirty, of course it is. There is no argument against gay marriage which doesn't boil down to, "Change is bad mmmkay" or, "Gay people are icky, I don't want them spreading their ick around". So in the absence of any substance to their argument, the anti crowd will resort to downright lies, distractions, claims of religious oppression, appeals to tradition and of course the slippery slope fallacy.

Naturally we'll have whatsherface waxing lyrical in the Irish Times about the good old days and how our grandparents would be disgusted, and the Iona institute will once again pull their nepotist strings and somehow get their face on every TV discussion on the topic, and will get unchallenged column space in the Irish Times, even though 99% of the population neither agree with nor want to hear their ultra-hardline catholic bull****.

But hopefully it's that hate that will spur the gay people of Ireland on even harder. They will use all of that homophobia and channel it into the satisfaction of giving them all a big two fingers when the rest of the Irish population validate their existence and tell them, "You're one of us. You're a human fncking being."

You don't have to hope. Marriage will be marriage regardless of the configuration of the couple with exactly the same rights for everyone.

That's how I understand it anyway. If it isn't then I wish good luck to whoever has to draft a referendum question to take account of all the things you listed there.

Daith

Woodville56 wrote: »

I beg to differ on that ! It's making a decision informed by one's conscience based on religious beliefs. If that's interpreted as being intolerant, then your position appears to be that anyone who professes to hold religious beliefs is an intolerant of your views?

No but I think if someone uses their religion to justify a bigoted view (against same sex marriage/interracial marriage/whatever) that doesn't mean they aren't or their religious institution isn't bigoted.

Religion is not immune from criticism!

Maximus Alexander

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You don't have to hope. Marriage will be marriage regardless of the configuration of the couple with exactly the same rights for everyone.

That's how I understand it anyway. If it isn't then I wish good luck to whoever has to draft a referendum question to take account of all the things you listed there.

Key words: "leads to"

comongethappy

Daith wrote: »

No but I think if someone uses their religion to justify a bigoted view (against same sex marriage/interracial marriage/whatever) that doesn't mean they aren't or their religious institution isn't bigoted.

Religion is not immune from criticism!

And that is doubly so if their religion actually has no issue on the matter.

A Christian can only take issue with SSM if Christ said it was wrong.

If he was ambivalent on the matter, then "Church teachings" is a fig leaf.

padd b1975

Daith wrote: »

 I've never heard anyone from the No side give a logical reason other than "it's my choice".

That's democracy at its most pure right there.

Daith

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You don't have to hope. Marriage will be marriage regardless of the configuration of the couple with exactly the same rights for everyone.

That's how I understand it anyway. If it isn't then I wish good luck to whoever has to draft a referendum question to take account of all the things you listed there.

In fairness alot of rights are already covered by civil partnership. The main thing is adoption.

In Ireland a single gay person can adopt but a couple can not adopt. This leads to the main argument that same sex marriage means gay adoption. It doesn't. Gay people can already adopt.

However the Government are surprisingly being clever here and look set to pass a bill which among other things will allow gay people to adopt jointly. Therefore regardless if SSM referendum passes or not, gay joint adoption will still happen.

Thus when the referendum comes around the only debate should be about allowing to same sex people to marry. Not about their ability to raise children.

P_1

seamus and DazMarz you have put it more eloquently and powerfully than I could have possibly attempted.

Ireland needs to pass this referendum

Zed Bank

I think if boards is any kind of accurate representation of Irish attitudes SSM will pass with flying colours (admittedly though, it's probably not )

Daith

padd b1975 wrote: »

That's democracy at its most pure right there.

Who voted for your right to get married again?

padd b1975

Zed Bank wrote: »

I think if boards is any kind of accurate representation of Irish attitudes

Far from it.

padd b1975

Daith wrote: »

Who voted for your right to get married again?

Whoever it was, I wish they hadn't bothered!!

Nodin

padd b1975 wrote: »

That's democracy at its most pure right there.

Do we have to do the difference between a Republic and simple democracy again?

Muise...

padd b1975 wrote: »

That's democracy at its most pure right there.

No. That is pure consumerism and individualism. Democracy - Gk 'demos' - 'population' + 'cracy' - 'rule' - means considering others with your own vote since you are just one of many. After all, every vote counts so your 'choice' is balanced against the rest. It is entirely possible to be a gowl about it, but that is not being democratic.

Woodville56

RayM wrote: »

I'm not sure that there is a distinction. I mean, take David Quinn of the Iona Institute for instance... It's likely that he'll be publicly campaigning against the legislation. Does that make him more of a homophobe than someone who shares his views, but chooses not to air them publicly?

If you vote against equal marriage, you're actively attempting to deny equal rights to gay people. Citing your imaginary god as an excuse just isn't valid.

This posting typifies the issues I have with LGBT supporters of this referendum- in your argument anyone who has a private view which opposes your own on the gay marriage issue is branded a homophobe ? You then proceed to insult anyone of Christian belief with your " citing your imaginary god as an excuse" comment. I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless, as I reckon many gay people would also claim to be Christian - maybe I'm wrong on that one ?
I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs ! Similarly, the fundamentalist rants we will hear from the opposing side won't get my support either , result - think I'll give it a miss altogether

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Woodville56 wrote: »

This posting typifies the issues I have with LGBT supporters of this referendum- in your argument anyone who has a private view which opposes your own on the gay marriage issue is branded a homophobe ? You then proceed to insult anyone of Christian belief with your " citing your imaginary god as an excuse" comment. I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless, as I reckon many gay people would also claim to be Christian - maybe I'm wrong on that one ?
I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs ! Similarly, the fundamentalist rants we will hear from the opposing side won't get my support either , result - think I'll give it a miss altogether

You are not branded as homophobic for being Christian. You are branded as homophobic if you vote to deny equal rights to homosexuals, whether or not you use your Christianity to justify that.

ETA: anybody who holds a belief, whether public or private, that gay people and their relationships are somehow lesser than straight people and their relationships IS HOMOPHOBIC. And when you vote to maintain a legal and hierarchical distinction between straight and gay relationships that is exactly what you are communicating. The mere difference in opinion is not what makes people describe these views as homophobic, it's the actual details of the opinion.

_Redzer_

padd b1975 wrote: »

Whoever it was, I wish they hadn't bothered!!

Lovely to hear about how little you care about marriage.

That's ok, but there are people like me and many other people both straight and gay who would like to get married at some point.

If you've no interest in marriage, you should stay out of any argument which involves it.

Nodin

Woodville56 wrote: »

This posting typifies the issues I have with LGBT supporters of this referendum- in your argument anyone who has a private view which opposes your own on the gay marriage issue is branded a homophobe ? You then proceed to insult anyone of Christian belief with your " citing your imaginary god as an excuse" comment. I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless, as I reckon many gay people would also claim to be Christian - maybe I'm wrong on that one ?
I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs ! Similarly, the fundamentalist rants we will hear from the opposing side won't get my support either , result - think I'll give it a miss altogether

At its most basic -

You will not be required to marry gay couples, or marry somebody of the same gender. By voting against, you aren't protecting yourself, you're imposing on somebody else.

Daith

Woodville56 wrote: »

I'm a Christian, not practicing any particular brand of Christianity but a Christian nonetheless

I haven't made up my mind on how I would vote in the SSM referendum but I'm not likely to be sympathetic to the cause if I'm branded as homophobic, intolerant, loony or stupid just because I hold Christian beliefs !

Hold on. You don't practice any particular brand of Christianity? So do you just pick which parts of Christianity you believe in?

PopePalpatine

padd b1975 wrote: »

Far from it.

Well, it's closer to a representation of Irish attitudes about LGBT marriage than your church.

Legs.Eleven

I haven't asked my parents but everyone else I know will vote yes (not surprisingly). I'll be flying home to vote yes especially (although I know that displeases many - fcuk yiz :P)

padd b1975

Muise... wrote: »

No. That is pure consumerism and individualism. Democracy - Gk 'demos' - 'population' + 'cracy' - 'rule' - means considering others with your own vote since you are just one of many. After all, every vote counts so your 'choice' is balanced against the rest. It is entirely possible to be a gowl about it, but that is not being democratic.

What a load of cobblers!!

The electorate have the right to do whatever they so choose with their voting rights, be it a protest vote, spoiled vote or ya know.... vote against a proposal you intend to vote for.