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SSM Referendum Spring 2015

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12467…69

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    #92
    Conchir
    Registered Users Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Conchir


    Just a quick question. Are Irish people living in say the UK able to vote in Irish referendums? Pretty sure they can vote in local elections and such, so just want to make sure.


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    #93
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    The nastiness and name calling won't be confined to the "no " side ! You can bet there will be tirades and stupidity coming from both sides I'd say

    Yes but honestly some young lgbt people will be exposed for tge first time to Irelands really nasty side. It has the potential to scar some young lgbt people for life. Its genuinely worrying.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #94
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,793 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    This whole thing about marriage as a expression of love and equal rights etc. just doesn't do it for me personally. Love isn't just about a ceremony or a piece of paper stating that two people are married. My understanding is that it's about people's care and commitment to each other and a ceremony or marriage licence doesn't add, subtract from that commitment or enrich it's living imo. I have many straight friends and also know some gay couples, some of them in long term "non solemnised" relationships, some married, some in civil partnerships. Like them, I feel the civil union /partnership legislation regularised the tax and inheritance / legal issues, so I'm not sure what the hullabaloo about the public solemnisation of a commitment between two people, which is inherently a personal thing, be that same sex or heterosexual. Maybe a simplistic view but marriage isn't all about being out and proud !

    It goes back a long way in organised societies and has a lot to do with property and inheritance. Marriage partners and their chidren inherit the property belonging to the couple when one of them dies. The very fact that no society when drafting legislation ever considered the concept of a legally recognised same sex marriage equal to man woman marriage just shows how new the concept is.

    The legalities will have to be decided whenever it comes into being and I can see complications where the father of children will not belong to the marriage. And like I mentioned earlier it will cause problems in this modern world of international travel for couples from some countries going to other countries which have a different ethos and legal system.


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    #95
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    The nastiness and name calling won't be confined to the "no " side ! You can bet there will be tirades and stupidity coming from both sides I'd say

    If the "No" side can't come up with a good argument, its unavoidable


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    #96
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Most people I know have no issue with same-sex marriage.
    But voter turn-out is the key issue and it can swing both ways. Like, I reckon there is alot of people who support SSM but just mightn't vote. On the flip side you could have people who think being gay is unnatural ... but don't feel a need to vote. Each to their own type of mentality.

    Like I think SSM will be brought in. But if there was a massive record for voter turn out all bets could be off.

    I'd disagree with you there to be honest. I'd wager the higher the turnout the higher the likelihood of the Yes side carrying.


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    #97
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Conchir wrote: »
    Just a quick question. Are Irish people living in say the UK able to vote in Irish referendums? Pretty sure they can vote in local elections and such, so just want to make sure.

    No. Unless you are eligible for a postal vote. Which is for diplomats, guards and army only.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #98
    Conchir
    Registered Users Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Conchir


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No. Unless you are eligible for a postal vote. Which is for diplomats, guards and army only.
    Thanks, so you have to be resident in Ireland? Hopefully I'm still here when this comes around then.


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    #99
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Conchir wrote: »
    Thanks, so you have to be resident in Ireland? Hopefully I'm still here when this comes around then.

    Yes you do. Although some people stay registered and fly home from abroad to vote which isnt really legal.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #100
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Daith wrote: »
    You want find many a yes sider comparing same sex marriage to marrying a dog....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnPmtj_VfcI


    "If you allow a man to marry a man, what's to stop a woman marrying a dart-board? Is that what the future of Ireland holds?" :pac:


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    #101
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    I have a feeling this is something that catches the attention of the younger generation more than previous referendums in recent years, I think we'll see a strong social media presence with previously apolitical folk showing their support. Already I see a lot of people sharing links announcing the referendum on facebook and expressing their support for the yes side. For that reason I think the yes side will prevail.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #102
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    For you it isn't all about being out and proud - but what difference does it make to you if others put more emphasis on the ceremony and going the whole way - vows and marraige cert etc? Why deny them that?

    Legalizing SSM won't mean a thing to me personally (although I might get to go to a few more weddings), and I'm presuming that it won't mean a thing to you either - but it would mean the absolute world to a certain group of our citizens and would cost us nothing to do; so why not just assent for them to get on with their business like everyone else, if not simply out of a sense of nastiness?

    I'm not denying anyone the right to equality and their day out , I'm just makin the point that from my experience there's not a universal clamour for SSM among the gay community despite what the LGBT lobby would portray. Commitment is about more than the marriage certificate and the razzmatazz, that's all I'm saying. Whatever floats your boat !!
    Personally however I do have a dislike of the "in your face" crowd among the LGBT community who brand anyone who doesn't agree with their campaigns and views as bigoted, stupid, fundamentalists etc etc.- it just demeans their cause , just as the catholic right will resort to similar insulting rhetoric.


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    #103
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    I do have a dislike of the "in your face" crowd among the LGBT community who brand anyone who doesn't agree with their campaigns and views as bigoted, stupid, fundamentalists etc etc.

    I don't agree with that either if the "no" person can actually give a reason why they would vote against equality. Which I've yet to actually find....

    There will be people who will vote no to this who will be bigoted or homophobic.


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    #104
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,187 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    P_1 wrote: »
    I'd disagree with you there to be honest. I'd wager the higher the turnout the higher the likelihood of the Yes side carrying.

    I do expect a major vote turn out too. Because it's not your typical Which shower of gits are you voting into power type of thing. Its something that effects the rights of people.

    Just been thinking about the whole there and I think SSM will get in no problem. Like when I look to people that I have encountered in my life... through jobs, my friends, through college, etc etc. I've rarely seen issues towards gay people. Most of the attitudes have been "each to their own". Who cares like. We all live our own life so someones sexual preference does not matter.


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    #105
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,748 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Not affected by it personally but I can't see it passing.

    - Most straight people won't bother. Hard enough to get people out for these things at all, let alone an issue that won't affect them at all (sorry, but that's how it is)

    - The religious crowd and older generation (in other words, those who DO vote in large numbers in this country) will vote against

    - You have to factor in the protest vote. We'll be a few months after another harsh budget, water charges will have kicked in, no doubt there'll be some other outrage/scandal involving our "leaders" - all of this will go against this referendum


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    #106
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    I have a feeling this is something that catches the attention of the younger generation more than previous referendums in recent years, I think we'll see a strong social media presence with previously apolitical folk showing their support. Already I see a lot of people sharing links announcing the referendum on facebook and expressing their support for the yes side. For that reason I think the yes side will prevail.

    My worry is that social media can be more noise than signal, and could give the impression that nearly everyone will vote yes - without counting the thousands not on facebook/Twitter whose opinions we don't get to hear.


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    #107
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    comongethappy wrote: »
    If the "No" side can't come up with a good argument, its unavoidable

    A good argument from the no side ( mainly Catholic rightwingers I expect) will be that SSM is in conflict with their religion, a valid argument if you are of that church - will the pro SSM be respectful of such arguments I wonder ?


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    #108
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    - Most straight people won't bother. Hard enough to get people out for these things at all, let alone an issue that won't affect them at all (sorry, but that's how it is)

    What? You don't think most straight people are related to gay people? You don't think straight parents and the rest of the family might vote yes because they want their son or daughter to be able to get married?

    Saying it won't affect straight people is simplistic at best.


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    #109
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    It really doesn't bother me either way but I'd vote for it, if I voted. However most people I know are saying the same thing - no objection to it but wouldn't be too bothered about actually going out to vote for it. I suspect a low turnout, which could suit the sectors who will be opposed to it. It will have to be run on the same day as some other votes to ensure a decent turnout and a Yes result.


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    #110
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    A good argument from the no side ( mainly Catholic rightwingers I expect) will be that SSM is in conflict with their religion, a valid argument if you are of that church - will the pro SSM be respectful of such arguments I wonder ?

    Being of a formerly religious persuasion, I can't think of Christ ever opposing it (or even having much of an opinion) on SSM.

    Similarly with abortion, the RCCs opposition to homosexuality is a relatively modern concept.


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    #111
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    A good argument from the no side ( mainly Catholic rightwingers I expect) will be that SSM is in conflict with their religion, a valid argument if you are of that church - will the pro SSM be respectful of such arguments I wonder ?

    Why should their religious beliefs be forced on others? Catholics won't be required to get gay married.


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    #112
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    A good argument from the no side ( mainly Catholic rightwingers I expect) will be that SSM is in conflict with their religion, a valid argument if you are of that church - will the pro SSM be respectful of such arguments I wonder ?

    Same sex marriage is a civil matter. No religion will be forced to marry same sex couples.

    How is that in conflict with their religion?


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    #113
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    A good argument from the no side ( mainly Catholic rightwingers I expect) will be that SSM is in conflict with their religion, a valid argument if you are of that church - will the pro SSM be respectful of such arguments I wonder ?

    If someone disagrees with SSM or gayness in general on religious grounds, fair enough. But that's got arse all to with the law of the land, so yes I'll argue the point that their personal religious convictions should not define the legal status of gay couples they'll probably never meet anyway.


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    #114
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,017 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    I'm not denying anyone the right to equality and their day out , I'm just makin the point that from my experience there's not a universal clamour for SSM among the gay community despite what the LGBT lobby would portray. Commitment is about more than the marriage certificate and the razzmatazz, that's all I'm saying. Whatever floats your boat !!

    Nothing will ever be universal but in my experience there is a huge amount of the LGBT community in favour. The lgbt people against are to be honest a minority. What is your experience by the way?

    The other thing is you seem to be assuming a lot of gay or lesbian couples are just looking for a bit of razzamatazz and not commitment. I have no idea why you assume that.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #115
    banquo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭banquo


    Many young people will be in college. Many middle-aged / older people will be against it - until you've canvassed in an election, you won't believe how many people think it's "silly" or are "not really for it."

    It'll pass, but PP are offering margin of victory less than 57% at 1.80. I'd take that bet.


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    #116
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    Adrianna Weak Tray wrote: »
    It really doesn't bother me either way but I'd vote for it, if I voted. However most people I know are saying the same thing - no objection to it but wouldn't be too bothered about actually going out to vote for it. I suspect a low turnout, which could suit the sectors who will be opposed to it. It will have to be run on the same day as some other votes to ensure a decent turnout and a Yes result.

    Yeah logistic will play a huge part in this. Would the Gov lump a lot of the constitutional convention changes into one referendum?


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    #117
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    A good argument from the no side ( mainly Catholic rightwingers I expect) will be that SSM is in conflict with their religion, a valid argument if you are of that church - will the pro SSM be respectful of such arguments I wonder ?

    That's not an argument. That's using religion to justify your intolerance.

    Marriage is not a Catholic ceremony and was performed well before the church ever existed.

    SSM does not effect Catholic marriage whatsoever.


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    #118
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    banquo wrote: »
    Many young people will be in college. Many middle-aged / older people will be against it - until you've canvassed in an election, you won't believe how many people think it's "silly" or are "not really for it."

    It'll pass, but PP are offering margin of victory less than 57% at 1.80. I'd take that bet.

    I'd say 52. The divorce referendum got through just barely.


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    #119
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    You have to factor in the protest vote. We'll be a few months after another harsh budget, water charges will have kicked in, no doubt there'll be some other outrage/scandal involving our "leaders" - all of this will go against this referendum

    I'm not sure of this one in this case - because we're dealing with an issue that has a direct and visible immediate effect on people's rights, as opposed to something more abstract or based on the premise of voting people into positions. Even though it won't directly effect most people as you point out, I'd reckon there's few enough people below the age of 50 without at least one out-gay friend or family member. The younger generation are overwhelmingly in favour of equality in this respect, given the fact that a downturn in the stigma associated with homosexuality has been evident in the upbringing of the under-35's and the church has little hold over them to speak of - I think we'll be looking at a record turnout for the youth vote at least in this one.

    Also, the standard repository for protest voter sentiment at the moment is SF and the far-left, as evident in their great showing at the elections a few weeks ago. I see them very much falling in line with the Government parties on this one, leaving really only religious institutions and loonies as the organized opposition campaign. That should count for something.


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    #120
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Daith wrote: »
    I don't agree with that either if the "no" person can actually give a reason why they would vote against equality. Which I've yet to actually find....

    There will be people who will vote no to this who will be bigoted or homophobic.

    What if a Catholic or other religious persuasion votes no in conscience because of their church's teaching, that's a good and valid reason in their book. Doesn't mean that they are bigoted, homophobic, stupid or idiots ( words uses in this thread) to describe opponents of the SSM referendum. In my view a distinction must be drawn between those who hold anti SSM views on a personal level and those who publicly campaign against the legislation.


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    #121
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭Daith


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    What if a Catholic or other religious persuasion votes no in conscience because of their church's teaching, that's a good and valid reason in their book. Doesn't mean that they are bigoted, homophobic, stupid or idiots ( words uses in this thread) to describe opponents of the SSM referendum.

    Ok...if someone voted no to interracial marriage based on religious belief would that mean they weren't racist?


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