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Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

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  • #272
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Muise... wrote: »
    I think we are talking about the same poster. She hates the church now, and I do not blame her at all - this is a reasonable position for her to hold after what they put her through - but I also think that we cannot realistically expect to exclude the church (as in today, 2014's church) from any memorials or redresses to the wrongs in the past.

    I can totally see why she doesn't want to see them at a memorial (and I would just like to see them in court) but I think that all sincere sympathies should be directed toward the dead in this case, including any repentant perpetrators and current practising Catholics. Otherwise we learn nothing and nothing will change. That is what I meant when I said she could not dictate the responses of others.
    The dead don't need our sympathy. Survivors need our sympathy and they need our respect. Where is the sympathy and respect in this thread?


  • #273
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    The dead don't need our sympathy. Survivors need our sympathy and they need our respect. Where is the sympathy and respect in this thread?

    It's in all the posts that stand up for the dead, however misguided and mod-repressed, and this does not include the whatabouteries and blame dispersals.


  • #274
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Why, oh why, did the nuns not have an alarmingly high death rate too? That would have normalised the figures we are seeing today. However, only the poor children were dying of malnutrition.


  • #275
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    The dead don't need our sympathy. Survivors need our sympathy and they need our respect. Where is the sympathy and respect in this thread?

    Pardon me, but why do you think you can censor where *our* sympathies lie??


  • #276
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ^
    Year Births 'Illegitimate Births' Pct % Infant Deaths 'Illegitimate Deaths' Pct %
    1923 61,690 1,624 2.63% 4,098 559 13.64%
    1926 61,176 1,716 2.81% 4,552 553 12.15%
    1936 58,115 1,908 3.28% 4,309 581 13.48%
    1940 56,594 1,824 3.22% 3,759 449 11.94%


    Disparities between the proportions of total births and infant deaths are stark.
    They are, in a general context where general infant mortality was worsening. There were issues around nutrition and housing that were really only addressed from the 1950s.
    SpaceTime wrote: »
    It's not really another topic though. The sad reality is that after independence, Ireland embarked on a whole load of disastrous attempts at social engineering and isolationist economics driven by a group of conservatives who were going to model their ideal Ireland come hell or highwater.
    I don't disagree. Browsing the Oireachtas Debates for the topic, it's probably no accident that the issue is not infrequently raised by someone elected on the Trinity College panel. I'm sure the Civil War generation of politicians welcomed being lectured by a bunch of West Brits.

    That said, the substance of the issue, including the fact that this very high death rate occurs in institutions, is openly debated. To an extent, it's evidence of a very large problem that the State just lacked the capacity to address. Each year, the Reports of the Registrar General reported on infant mortality, and compared the rate to England & Wales, Scotland and NI. What's clear is that, in the UK, the rate was steadily improving. In independent Ireland, it wasn't - whether the births were in or out of wedlock. And, of course, there was also the whole issue of TB.

    Just as an aside, we're never going to know how many unwanted infants were just quietly disposed of by their families, such as has happened even in quite recent times.
    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/grim-discovery-one-of-three-in-seven-years-27373598.html

    11/08/2000

    SUNDAY'S discovery of the remains of an unidentified baby on Rossbeigh beach was the third such incident in Kerry in the last seven years.
    The Rossbeigh incident is different in that the mother has since made thebrave step of contacting the gardaí. However, the mothers never came forwardin the other two cases.

    Five years ago the body of an infant was found on the beach in Waterville.It was later buried without being claimed by its mother.

    And in 1993 the remains of a baby boy were found near Listowel racecourse.These too were never claimed and were buried locally.
    The reason we're all having a go at the nuns is because they did actually register the deaths that occured in their institutions.


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  • #277
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Why, oh why, did the nuns not have an alarmingly high death rate too? That would have normalised the figures we are seeing today. However, only the poor children were dying of malnutrition.

    Another "benefit" to getting rid of potential "heirs" by alienating girls and killing/selling off their children may have meant occasionally a farm was left to the church

    It is a secretive, all-male hierarchy fixated on self-preservation at all costs after all


  • #278
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Another "benefit" to getting rid of potential "heirs" by alienating girls and killing/selling off their children may have meant occasionally a farm was left to the church

    It is a secretive, all-male hierarchy fixated on self-preservation at all costs after all

    Oh my sweet Lord its time for me to go. Try not to tear your tinfoil hats.


  • #279
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Oh my sweet Lord its time for me to go. Try not to tear your tinfoil hats.

    What part of my post is not true ?


  • #280
    Spring Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    gctest50 wrote: »
    What part of my post is not true ?

    She'll be back.


  • #281
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Once again, have you no clue how a surviving family member of these children might feel when reading this speculative, sensationalist, mind numbingly hurt full, insensitive tabloid claptrap?? A poster claiming to be a survivor of one of these homes has already called this thread "shame full" and now the thread has been taken down another notch.

    I don't?

    You know me so well that you are sure I wasnt related to someone who was places against their will in these types of places? Or that I dont know heaps of people who knew for decades that this was a home mass grave and not the famine grave the gardai insisted it was for years?

    You'd be wrong then.

    For me, it's local, and its personal. I want a full impartial inquiry. I want respect to be given to those human remains. A massive injustice was done.

    I'm not speculating. I quoted facts. Unfortunately the facts are far more dreadful than any vivid and cruel fantasies I could come up with.


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  • #282
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Why, oh why, did the nuns not have an alarmingly high death rate too? That would have normalised the figures we are seeing today. However, only the poor children were dying of malnutrition.

    Looking a the Mail on Sunday, it was disease that was the killer for most, the nuns being adults would likely have been exposed as children to the diseases and have immunity.


  • #283
    sunflower27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Have a look through the attachment for " marasmus "

    That is truly heartbreadking. Seeing names really brings it home.

    I for one am delighted this story is out there now. It is some small justice for those little innocents.

    RIP.


  • #284
    Birroc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    Some more revelations from the Tuam home.

    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/-18-children-died-of-hunger-at-Tuam-mother-and-baby-home.html

    "Details are emerging of the horrific stories behind some of the 796 deaths at the Tuam mother and baby home – where 18 children died of hunger. 12 of the 18 who starved were girls and there is a suspicion that some were mentally retarded. One child wasn’t even given a name by the Bons Secours nuns who ran the Tuam home"


  • #285
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    sunflower27 wrote: »
    I for one am delighted this story is out there now.
    The story has been "out there" since at least 1923.
    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/birthsdm/archivedreports/P-VS,1923.pdf

    From Table X. which gives the infant mortality rates for Saorstat Eireann, by sexes, ages and causes it will be seen that atrophy, debility, marasmus (18·75 per 1,000) convulsions (8·18), diarrhcea and enteritis (7·17) premature birth (5·92) bronchitis (5·12) and pneumonia (5·15) in the aggregate, are equivalent to 50·29 per 1,000 births, or about 76 per cent. of the total infant mortality.
    As the Registrar General's reports show, general infant mortality worsened after independence, and took a long time to come down.
    Birroc wrote: »
    Some more revelations from the Tuam home.
    Aren't these just a repackaging of the last "revelations"?


  • #286
    sunflower27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    The story has been "out there" since at least 1923.As the Registrar General's reports show, general infant mortality worsened after independence, and took a long time to come down.Aren't these just a repackaging of the last "revelations"?

    I think you know what I meant. Out there in the wider community. I had never heard of the story till now.


  • #287
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Looking a the Mail on Sunday, it was disease that was the killer for most, the nuns being adults would likely have been exposed as children to the diseases and have immunity.

    However, 18 children died of hunger as well as health inspectors reporting that children appeared malnourished. Were the nuns also malnourished?


  • #288
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Doing a bit of reading on what is coming out over the past few days/weeks and one thing has struck me and maybe i'm just being naive or something but how is the Catholic Church still allowed to function in this country?

    If this was any other organisation/business (let's be honest, that's what it is) they would have been run out of the place long ago and people involved would have been prosecuted.

    The attitude seems to be: "this is all terrible, let's just get the facts out there and leave it at that".


  • #289
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Doing a bit of reading on what is coming out over the past few days/weeks and one thing has struck me and maybe i'm just being naive or something but how is the Catholic Church still allowed to function in this country?

    If this was any other organisation/business (let's be honest, that's what it is) they would have been run out of the place long ago and people involved would have been prosecuted.

    The attitude seems to be: "this is all terrible, let's just get the facts out there and leave it at that".

    They're not going to be 'run' out as they appear to still be wanted in this country. I wonder how many people are registered as Catholics in Ireland? I'd wager possible 3 million maybe more. The public aren't telling them they're unhappy with them. Churches may not have huge turnouts at weekly mass but christenings & weddings are booked up far in advance & the public uses funeral facilities.

    If they were a minority religion it might be different , as in not the dominant religion of Ireland. How many 'atheists' are actually Catholics? How many physically denounce & leave Catholicism? I'm not sure if many people actually do leave the church or if it's publicly known that you can do it. I am still a registered catholic but I'm prepared to leave.


  • #290
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    How many physically denounce & leave Catholicism? I'm not sure if many people actually do leave the church or if it's publicly known that you can do it. I am still I registered catholic but I'm prepared to leave.

    I dont think this is possible anymore. The RCC closed that loophole some years ago. If you do know of a way to officially leave the RCC, please let me know. I'd be on it like a shot.


  • #291
    same ol sh1te
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭same ol sh1te


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Doing a bit of reading on what is coming out over the past few days/weeks and one thing has struck me and maybe i'm just being naive or something but how is the Catholic Church still allowed to function in this country?

    If this was any other organisation/business (let's be honest, that's what it is) they would have been run out of the place long ago and people involved would have been prosecuted.

    The attitude seems to be: "this is all terrible, let's just get the facts out there and leave it at that".

    It's much much worse than you can imagine. For a start one of the heads of RTE is director in the PR Management company the nuns use. This same national broadcaster beams the RCC call to prayer daily.

    Along with completely removing the RCC from our schools and re-writing the curriculum there are lots of things we need to tackle.

    The first paragraph of our Constitution is basically a prayer.

    In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom
    is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all
    actions both of men and States must be referred,
    We, the people of Éire,
    Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our
    Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers
    through centuries of trial,
    Gratefully remembering their heroic and
    unremitting struggle to regain the rightful
    independence of our Nation

    Both the Dáil and Senate start with a prayer

    Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every word and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and by Thee be happily ended; through Christ our Lord. Amen.

    The above prayer is said at the commencement of each day's business in the Dáil by the Ceann Comhairle, and in the Seanad by the Clerk of the Seanad.

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/a-misc/prayer.htm

    An even bigger embarrassment is our blasphemy laws, we should be removing 1930s religious references from the Irish Constitution, not legislating to enforce them

    http://blasphemy.ie/history-of-irish-blasphemy-law/


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  • #292
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    However, 18 children died of hunger as well as health inspectors reporting that children appeared malnourished. Were the nuns also malnourished?

    One would hope not.

    When you see people working in famine areas, you don't want to see the aid workers suffering from hunger.


  • #293
    Spring Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One would hope not.

    When you see people working in famine areas, you don't want to see the aid workers suffering from hunger.

    That's lame. You can be guaranteed the nuns fed well.


  • #294
    Spring Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Doing a bit of reading on what is coming out over the past few days/weeks and one thing has struck me and maybe i'm just being naive or something but how is the Catholic Church still allowed to function in this country?

    If this was any other organisation/business (let's be honest, that's what it is) they would have been run out of the place long ago and people involved would have been prosecuted.

    The attitude seems to be: "this is all terrible, let's just get the facts out there and leave it at that".

    It's Stockholm Syndrome that keeps them going.


  • #295
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    However, 18 children died of hunger as well as health inspectors reporting that children appeared malnourished. Were the nuns also malnourished?

    The female Nazi guards looked to be ok, would be about the same time and setup :

    http://imgur.com/qOigVYF


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One would hope not.

    When you see people working in famine areas, you don't want to see the aid workers suffering from hunger.

    Really ? you are comparing the whole slimy setup to aid workers ?


    .


  • #296
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One would hope not.

    When you see people working in famine areas, you don't want to see the aid workers suffering from hunger.

    Was there a famine in Tuam that only afflicted babies in the care of the Bon Secours nuns?


  • #297
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    sunflower27 wrote: »
    I think you know what I meant. Out there in the wider community. I had never heard of the story till now.
    Oh, I do know what you meant. But isn't the point that this was out in the wider community at the time. It's something we've forgotten, rather than something that was hidden.
    Muise... wrote: »
    Was there a famine in Tuam that only afflicted babies in the care of the Bon Secours nuns?
    Are you under the impression that malnutrition was only experienced by illegitimate infants in institutions? As I thought was clear, the general level of infant mortality was high and increasing after independence. It's also true that the level of mortality among illegitimate infants in institutions was a multiple of that general high rate, with the bulk of the deaths being due to infectious diseases more than directly assigned to malnutrition.

    There's a case to be made around this issue. But it is weakened by extreme opinions.


  • #298
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Are you under the impression that malnutrition was only experienced by illegitimate infants in institutions? As I thought was clear, the general level of infant mortality was high and increasing after independence. It's also true that the level of mortality among illegitimate infants in institutions was a multiple of that general high rate, with the bulk of the deaths being due to infectious diseases more than directly assigned to malnutrition.

    No. I was responding to RobertKK's post about aid workers in famine situations needing to feed themselves. I did not think this was a valid analogy, much as I don't think your minimising of the mortality rates of children in institutions by comparison to national rates (which it exceeds, so well done there) is helpful.


  • #299
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Spring Onion wrote: »
    That's lame. You can be guaranteed the nuns fed well.

    Would it better be for the mothers and babies if the nuns who they went to were were weak from hunger.
    It is to the nuns that society pushed what was viewed as a problem, the state had abandoned the mothers and babies, their families had abandoned them.
    Take away the nuns and who was there for them, I think it would be wrong to assume all the nuns were somehow bad.
    If anything it looks like the problem as society then viewed it, was too big for the nuns to cope with. It was reported that there were over 200 babies/children and 100 mothers housed at Tuam which seems a lot.


  • #300
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Neyite wrote: »
    I dont think this is possible anymore. The RCC closed that loophole some years ago. If you do know of a way to officially leave the RCC, please let me know. I'd be on it like a shot.

    Seriously? That's scary. A poster in A & A said that they left, I might start a thread asking over there and see what they say.


    edit : yep they changed the system in 2009 because people left in their droves. article here : http://www.thejournal.ie/count-me-out-closes-because-of-catholic-church-defection-system-chage-1028259-Aug2013/ and previous boards thread here : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056513779
    RobertKK wrote: »
    One would hope not.

    When you see people working in famine areas, you don't want to see the aid workers suffering from hunger.

    True, as well there is a lot of stories of nuns feasting in Magdelene homes while the inmates went hungry. I wonder if the same took place here, certainly reports of emancipated children would indicate it is a possibility. I note also that inspector reports indicate that 'the children' appeared emanciated, not just some.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Would it better be for the mothers and babies if the nuns who they went to were were weak from hunger.
    It is to the nuns that society pushed what was viewed as a problem, the state had abandoned the mothers and babies, their families had abandoned them.
    Take away the nuns and who was there for them, I think it would be wrong to assume all the nuns were somehow bad.
    If anything it looks like the problem as society then viewed it, was too big for the nuns to cope with. It was reported that there were over 200 babies/children and 100 mothers housed at Tuam which seems a lot.

    Absolutely, there must have been a large income of cash coming in to the home with 300 inmates & free labour. One would think the nuns would go without to feed the hungry mouths of vulnerable infants....doesn't look like this was the case.


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  • #301
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Seriously? That's scary. A poster in A & A said that they left, I might start a thread asking over there and see what they say.

    The vatican changed the law to no longer recognise formal defection. i beleieve they are still registering the interest of people who want to leave. I don't know why people get so worked up about it. It's not like it changes anything. Just stop calling yourself a Catholic


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