Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

humanji

This thread is for the discussion arising from the Tuam babies finding and the other related stories, both current and possibly to come. Anyone who even glanced at the previous two threads will have seen an insane amount of bickering, insults and general disregard for all forum rules and instructions. As a result it has been decided to create one thread where there will be absolutely zero tolerance for anyone who breaks the rules. The topic is no doubt going to be incredibly heated. Just remember to think before you post. If you feel you are getting angry with another user, take a break from the thread and calm down. If you have a problem with another user, ignore them or report them. Don't start posting things about them that will just end in you being banned.

This thread is not a place to insult any religion or any member of any religion, and also anyone who is not a member of a religion. Many of you may feel animosity towards the Catholic Church. This is perfectly fine. You simply can't use this thread as a means to vent your anger. That's not to say you can't say anything negative about the church. You simply don't have free reign to hurl abuse at them.

Keep it civil, or don't post. It's that simple.

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Menas

Right, where were we?

I see Ruari Quinn has been saying that some of the reporting has been sensationalist and not true....could be a long time before the truth does come out....if ever.

My name is URL

I had this reply typed out for the other thread before it was closed

FullblownRose wrote: »

Psychiatric hospitals in England tested medicines and 'therapies' on patients without their consent.

It happened all over the place. As did the practices of forced adoption, sending unwed mothers and their kids to workhouses to perform unpaid labor etc

There was a huge controversy in Canada about it not so long ago

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/aboriginal-children-used-in-medical-tests-commissioner-says-1.1318150

Also in Australia - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-11-18/university-apologises-for-experiments-on-children/1147768

mad muffin

If it has happened in other countries does that suddenly excuse what happened here?

darkpagandeath

Ok from last thread someone mentioned septic tank could have been a cesspit, If this is correct can anyone link any information to mass dumping of human remains into cesspit was common practice ? To me it just does not add up seems a later addition to the site and more lightly a septic tank so therefore not famine related remains.

My name is URL

mad muffin wrote: »

If it has happened in other countries does that suddenly excuse what happened here?

Tbh only an idiot would assume that anyone pointing out similarities between what happened here and what happened elsewhere was an attempt to 'excuse' anything

michael999999

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Right, where were we?

I see Ruari Quinn has been saying that some of the reporting has been sensationalist and not true....could be a long time before the truth does come out....if ever.

Was ruari sitting in cabinet while any of these things were happening?

mad muffin

My name is URL wrote: »

Tbh only an idiot would assume that anyone pointing out similarities between what happened here and what happened elsewhere was an attempt to 'excuse' anything

Soooo, Are you calling yourself an idiot or me?

darkpagandeath

My name is URL wrote: »

Tbh only an idiot would assume that anyone pointing out similarities between what happened here and what happened elsewhere was an attempt to 'excuse' anything

Then why do people bring it up ? surely we are talking about what specifically happened here. And not about similar practices from other countries ? Seems to be brought in and used to deflect any blame.

P_1

As a society we really do need to face up to what happened in the past to ensure that it never repeats itself. Having said that it does strike me that each era has had it's own specific controversy when you look at the planning schenanigans of the 80's and the financial fun and games of the 00's. I wonder if we as a society are too deferential to those who end up 'above' us?

bumper234

My name is URL wrote: »

I had this reply typed out for the other thread before it was closed



It happened all over the place. As did the practices of forced adoption, sending unwed mothers and their kids to workhouses to perform unpaid labor etc

There was a huge controversy in Canada about it not so long ago

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/aboriginal-children-used-in-medical-tests-commissioner-says-1.1318150

Also in Australia - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-11-18/university-apologises-for-experiments-on-children/1147768

So because it was the done thing at the time we should all just forget about it and "move on" as has been suggested in the other threads? Yes **** things happened in most countries around the world over the last couple of centuries, that does not mean that what happened here should not be investigated.

My name is URL

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Then why do people bring it up ? surely we are talking about what specifically happened here. And not about similar practices from other countries ? Seems to be brought in and used to deflect any blame.

Because it's pertinent to any discussion about pharma companies and the shady business they were doing with governments at the time.

Companies that are now worth trillions of dollars and who still hold files and archives on all they were involved in. How is that deflection?

So because it was the done thing at the time we should all just forget about it

Did I say that? Stop making dumb and emotionally charged assumptions about what I'm talking about

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok from last thread someone mentioned septic tank could have been a cesspit, If this is correct can anyone link any information to mass dumping of human remains into cesspit was common practice ? To me it just does not add up seems a later addition to the site and more lightly a septic tank so therefore not famine related remains.

The lady who wrote the report was quoted on the radio today as having never said the bodies were IN the septic tank. They were buried in an unmarked grave NEAR one. She asked that people react to the facts, not the hysterical reporting that has taken place.

It is unbearably sad that human life was thought so little of. I hope their por souls are Resting In Peace.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

........... They were buried in an unmarked grave NEAR one.......

So - did only the "bad ones" get dumped down a hole covered with a concrete slab ?

Between them the boys levered up the slab. “There were skeletons thrown in there. They were all this way and that way. They weren’t wrapped in anything, and there were no coffins,” he says.

Hermy

P_1 wrote: »

As a society we really do need to face up to what happened in the past to ensure that it never repeats itself. Having said that it does strike me that each era has had it's own specific controversy when you look at the planning schenanigans of the 80's and the financial fun and games of the 00's. I wonder if we as a society are too deferential to those who end up 'above' us?

Define the past. When exactly did children born out of wedlock and their mothers stop being ill-treated in Ireland? I think there's been a tendency to over-emphasise that this all took place in the very distant past when that isn't quite so.

Dan_Solo

Does anyone know what the latest at the site is? Has it been secured?

Shakespeare's Sister

If people were to say that catholic church-run institutions were the only places in which these obscenities took place, then it would be quite right to dispute this.
But otherwise, I really don't see the point in saying "Well it happened in xyz too."
Nobody's saying it didn't, but the organisations run by the church here are what's being discussed.

runs with scissors

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Right, where were we?

I see Ruari Quinn has been saying that some of the reporting has been sensationalist and not true....could be a long time before the truth does come out....if ever.

He must have missed the telegraph piece on the administration of vaccines intended for cattle then,

can't post link, but look up belfast telegraph

GCU Flexible Demeanour

mad muffin wrote: »

If it has happened in other countries does that suddenly excuse what happened here?

In fairness, if the homes were experiencing 26% infant mortality rates, frequently as a result of infectious diseases, then participating in vaccine trials wasn't an especially bad thing to do. Did any of the vaccines involved come with a one in four chance of mortality?

On a side issue, I can't help noticing the aspirations for the memorial are escalating since last February

http://connachttribune.ie/campaign-recognise-800-dead-tuam-babies/

Thursday, 13 February 2014

<...> there was a septic tank marked on a 1891 map belonging to the home. The tank became defunct in 1938 when a new drainage scheme came into Tuam.

“It appears they made a crypt out of the old septic tank. I’d hope they’d have at least cleaned it out. It’s not nice to think about it.”
<...>She spent €400 getting copies of their records, which included their names, dates of birth and the addresses of their mothers. <...>

Catherine set up a committee a year ago to raise funds to erect a more permanent monument to the children.


They have plans to build a sculpture and a plaque bearing all their names, at a cost of €6,500. Tuam Town Council recently committed €2,000 to the project.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

7 June 2014

<...>Between 2011 and 2013 Corless paid €4 each time to get the children’s publicly available death certificates. She says the total cost was €3,184. “If I didn’t do it, nobody else would have done it. I had them all by last September.” <....>

As John Lowe, another member of the committee, explained this week at the site of the former home, the group’s aim is to raise €15,000 for a plaque with all the names of the children on it. So far they have raised €7,000, and €2,000 has been paid for initial drawings of the plaque.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/nine-missing-women-may-also-be-in-mass-baby-grave-30335918.html


Teresa Kelly, chairperson of the The Children's Home Graveyard Committee, said they hoped to raise €50,000 to cover the cost of a plaque they hope to erect at the site.

"We're looking to ensure that we have funds to do everything ourselves. If we find we need more we'll deal with that then, but if we find that we don't need that amount of money either we'll be donating that to the other mother-and-baby homes projects.

A persistent problem with this story has been the inconsistent media reports, such as illustrated by the quotes above.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Signs of a more balanced account reaching the international media.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/world/europe/tuam-ireland-796-irish-children-died-historian-searches-for-burial-records.html?

That 796 children, mainly babies, died at St. Mary’s Mother and Baby Home between 1925 and its closing in 1961 is not disputed. A local historian, Catherine Corless, says she researched the death certificates. What troubled her was that she could find burial records for only one child and wanted a plaque to commemorate the lives of the others.

Ms. Corless surmised that the children’s bodies were interred in a septic tank behind the home, and she then met a local man who said he had seen bones there while playing as a child. While even she acknowledges that the conclusion was a circumstantial leap, once it was picked up in the local press, it was sensational enough to rocket around the globe, becoming a story of a disused septic tank brimming with bones.

All because a few amateur historians in Tuam wanted to erect a memorial, as a hobby campaign.

bumper234

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Signs of a more balanced account reaching the international media.All because a few amateur historians in Tuam wanted to erect a memorial, as a hobby campaign.

Better they hadn't found out anything?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

bumper234 wrote: »

Better they hadn't found out anything?

Found what out?

Spring Onion

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0610/622730-cabinet-meet-babies/

Minister for Children Charlie Flanagan has announced a statutory Commission of Investigation into mother-and-baby-homes across the State.

Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Mr Flanagan said that it is too early to say who will lead the commission, but that he has some names in mind.

He said that the Government will receive an initial report by 30 June.

Minister Flanagan said he hopes the inquiry will examine all issues, including the high mortality rates, the burial practices following these deaths, the legal circumstances around adoptions and the question of conducting of clinical trials.

Muise...

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Signs of a more balanced account reaching the international media.

All because a few amateur historians in Tuam wanted to erect a memorial, as a hobby campaign.

In this case, the devil is not in the detail, but in the events themselves. A "more balanced account" still has to deal with the barbaric treatment of these children in life and death.

And "amateur", "hobby campaign" - really? Do you think you can patronise this issue, and those decent people who brought it to light, out of public consciousness or something?

Precious flower

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The lady who wrote the report was quoted on the radio today as having never said the bodies were IN the septic tank. They were buried in an unmarked grave NEAR one. She asked that people react to the facts, not the hysterical reporting that has taken place.

It is unbearably sad that human life was thought so little of. I hope their por souls are Resting In Peace.

That woman also claimed she never stated 800 bodies either so it's hard to know where that information came from. She also pointed out that at some points between 1926-when it closed, there was epidemics in the area anyway and disease would clearly spread fast in a such a place, which would explain any high amount of deaths at certain points.

However even if it wasn't that many and they weren't dumped in a septic tank their bodies were still disposed without care or not on consecrated ground, which shows just what the nuns and staff working there thought of those babies and children and the pain they put thier mothers through.

It makes you wonder how many others were aware of this, doctors, nurses, the health board, guards, government? It horrible how fearful people were under the church and how many women suffered under their guidelines.

Little CuChulainn

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Right, where were we?

I see Ruari Quinn has been saying that some of the reporting has been sensationalist and not true....could be a long time before the truth does come out....if ever.

What truth are you looking for though? Families and government authorities sent unmarried mothers to the homes run by the RCC where they were treated like second class citizens and had a high mortality rate due to the conditions. Those that died were buried unceremoniously on the grounds.

People are acting like this is some big conspiracy that needs to be revealed but, in truth, we all know exactly what happened and why. That's not to say there shouldn't be an investigation but I wouldn't be expecting any big revelations.

uck51js9zml2yt

Everyone is quick to blame the Catholic Church and I'm not lessening what certain people within the church did. But are we also going to see an investigation into the pharmaceutical companies involved in drug testing or the families who put their daughters, sisters, aunts, cousins into these homes knowing what went on in them.
Just heard on the news about trade unions campaigning at the time for the identities of adoptees being erased to save families the trauma of giving away a child. Are they going to be investigated too?


From my reading of the situation the bodies in tuam were know about ages ago. Why is is now convenient to make an issue of them when it wasn't an issue before?

Pretzill

Another problem with the appalling cruelities that have happened in this country (despite the obvious atrocities being awful) is that these sort of things aren't from the middle ages - they are relatively recent - not just mass graves, children being sold for adoption, young mothers being persecuted, even mothers married who lost a child at birth couldn't bury their children in consecrated ground - all the abuse against children by those given too much power, the whole shady unspoken world of adoption where mothers seek children and vice versa against a backdrop of red tape -

the problem is there are people still alive who are accountable for their blind eye attitude and eternal silence. The same attitude pervades today. The more a light is shone on that the quicker this country will start to repair and make steps to distance itself from the society born out of corruption. I welcome an investigation.

Spring Onion

Pretzill wrote: »

Another problem with the appalling cruelities that have happened in this country (despite the obvious atrocities being awful) is that these sort of things aren't from the middle ages - they are relatively recent - not just mass graves, children being sold for adoption, young mothers being persecuted, even mothers married who lost a child at birth couldn't bury their children in consecrated ground - all the abuse against children by those given too much power, the whole shady unspoken world of adoption where mothers seek children and vice versa against a backdrop of red tape -

the problem is there are people still alive who are accountable for their blind eye attitude and eternal silence. The same attitude pervades today. The more a light is shone on that the quicker this country will start to repair and make steps to distance itself from the society born out of corruption. I welcome an investigation.

Well said and I particularly agree with your 2nd paragraph

Hermy

Ariel Lively Ultrasound wrote: »

Why is is now convenient to make an issue of them when it wasn't an issue before?

When will it be convenient for me to know who my birth mother is?

ElizaT33

I'm amazed at some people's attitude on this thread - they are so obviously people who have no connection with the atrocities that occurred!

I have a relative who was put in one of these homes decades ago (an unmarried mother) - she got 'lucky' after a few years 'inside' when a distant uncle had to return from America and PAY the Nuns for her release, and her son's release!!?! Her own family could do nothing for her.

She now lives in a small town and rarely leaves the small house she lives in with her son, he rarely leaves it too (an adult now) - they are entirely scarred for life as a result of what happened to them (and speak not of it).

These days in Ireland, you are 'paid' to be an unmarried mother - you receive a house, pram, benefits etc. What a turnaround ......! Perhaps these benefits are the result of huge embarrassment on the Government's part for the discovery of these atrocities ...! SHAME on the Staff of the Churches of Ireland !