Mother Child Homes Discussion ###DO NOT POST WITHOUT READING 1st POST###

Birroc

Are the terms of reference of the inquiry out this week? It's so important that they get full powers and a wide scope. There is really so much to investigate but the #1 for me would be the high mortality rate.

mrsbyrne

Birroc wrote: »

Are the terms of reference of the inquiry out this week? It's so important that they get full powers and a wide scope. There is really so much to investigate but the #1 for me would be the high mortality rate.

birroc, as someone who was so incensed at the idea of the septic tank and other wild allegations which now appear to be totally groundless, you must be pretty annoyed with yourself at being duped by the media?

Muise...

mrsbyrne wrote: »

birroc, as someone who was so incensed at the idea of the septic tank and other wild allegations which now appear to be totally groundless, you must be pretty annoyed with yourself at being duped by the media?

The high mortality rate is fact. The undocumented burials and a thus far unknown number of small skeletons found buried unmarked in the grounds are fact. (Don't start on the unknown number - one is too many.) Unless they forged the death certificates and faked the bones to test your faith mrsbyrne?

Birroc

mrsbyrne wrote: »

birroc, as someone who was so incensed at the idea of the septic tank and other wild allegations which now appear to be totally groundless, you must be pretty annoyed with yourself at being duped by the media?

Duped by the media? Are you being sensationalist?

The media got one aspect wrong. The septic tank may or may not have any babies - do you know where they are buried? The end justifies the means here if international media attention got the government to finally act.

The media have blown open this story to the real issues which are:
(1) High mortality rate and suspicion of death through neglect.
(2) Many thousands of children in unmarked graves in mother and baby homes and laundries throughout Ireland
(3) Forced drug trials
(4) Forced adoptions. Illegal adoptions.
(5) Withholding of information re deaths and adoptions

Which of the above are "wild allegations"?

Are you annoyed this inquiry is taking place? Would you rather it didn't happen?
If yes, tough.

mrsbyrne

Muise... wrote: »

The high mortality rate is fact. The undocumented burials and a thus far unknown number of small skeletons found buried unmarked in the grounds are fact. (Don't start on the unknown number - one is too many.) Unless they forged the death certificates and faked the bones to test your faith mrsbyrne?

So, we've gone from high hysteria over
septic tanks
800 babies
dumped
flung
starved to death
Nazis
Khmer rouge
Gardaí being urged to leave traffic stops to arrest nuns
illegal drugs trials
illegal adoptions
institutionalised torture and cruelty and deliberate unspeakable neglect of helpless infants
forced starvation
gas chambers

To a suspicion of unmarked graves, and what appears to be a high mortality rate.
If I was one of the people who swallowed that rubbish in the papers first time around, I definitely wouldn't swallow it again.

Birroc

mrsbyrne wrote: »

So, we've gone from high hysteria over
septic tanks
800 babies
dumped
flung
starved to death
Nazis
Khmer rouge
Gardaí being urged to leave traffic stops to arrest nuns
illegal drugs trials
illegal adoptions
institutionalised torture and cruelty and deliberate unspeakable neglect of helpless infants
forced starvation
gas chambers

To a suspicion of unmarked graves, and what appears to be a high mortality rate.
If I was one of the people who swallowed that rubbish in the papers first time around, I definitely wouldn't swallow it again.

I think you are the only one being hysterical. The rest of us are discussing the issues.

Are you annoyed this inquiry is taking place? Would you rather it didn't happen?

Muise...

mrsbyrne wrote: »

So, we've gone from high hysteria over
septic tanks
800 babies
dumped
flung
starved to death
Nazis
Khmer rouge
Gardaí being urged to leave traffic stops to arrest nuns
illegal drugs trials
illegal adoptions
institutionalised torture and cruelty and deliberate unspeakable neglect of helpless infants
forced starvation
gas chambers

To a suspicion of unmarked graves, and what appears to be a high mortality rate.
If I was one of the people who swallowed that rubbish in the papers first time around, I definitely wouldn't swallow it again.

These are documented in the testimony of inmates of similar homes, the testimony of doctors and lay staff who were appalled by the conditions in the homes, and in data - i.e. death certificates and financial records- uncovered in the research of Catherine Corless.

If you think the septic tank and some OTT analogies are the main issue, you've swallowed a lot more than rubbish.

mrsbyrne

Birroc wrote: »

Duped by the media? Are you being sensationalist?

The media got one aspect wrong. The septic tank may or may not have any babies - do you know where they are buried? The end justifies the means here if international media attention got the government to finally act.

The media have blown open this story to the real issues which are:
(1) High mortality rate and suspicion of death through neglect.
(2) Many thousands of children in unmarked graves in mother and baby homes and laundries throughout Ireland
(3) Forced drug trials
(4) Forced adoptions. Illegal adoptions.
(5) Withholding of information re deaths and adoptions

Which of the above are "wild allegations"?

Are you annoyed this inquiry is taking place? Would you rather it didn't happen?
If yes, tough.

Why would I be annoyed? The Press have had to apologise for the offence they have caused to both survivors of these institutions and the people running them for the offence and hurt they have caused by making up a whole load of rubbish, which you swallowed without even pausing, and your still pushing these allegations as fact even before the investigation has begun, never mind concluded.

Muise...

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Why would I be annoyed? The Press have had to apologise for the offence they have caused to both survivors of these institutions and the people running them for the offence and hurt they have caused by making up a whole load of rubbish, which you swallowed without even pausing, and your still pushing these allegations as fact even before the investigation has begun, never mind concluded.

No one is pushing "allegations" as fact. People are pushing for an investigation into how so many children died of preventable causes, and where they were buried and why their burials were not marked, and who was responsible.

These are questions which arise from discrepancies in the records and testimonies from other homes, not foregone conclusions. Can you not see the difference?

Birroc

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Why would I be annoyed? The Press have had to apologise for the offence they have caused to both survivors of these institutions and the people running them for the offence and hurt they have caused by making up a whole load of rubbish, which you swallowed without even pausing, and your still pushing these allegations as fact even before the investigation has begun, never mind concluded.

By the time the inquiry report is produced, I think the septic tank headline will be the least of your worries.

Again I ask, do you think there should be an inquiry?

Ghost Buster

Am I the only one seeing the delicious irony in a religious accusing others of being duped by words written by men?

mrsbyrne

Birroc wrote: »

By the time the inquiry report is produced, I think the septic tank headline will be the least of your worries.

Again I ask, do you think there should be an inquiry?

What do you mean "Again I ask" Your not standing at the dispatch box in the house of commons you know! How many times do you have to ask and how many times do I have to tell you YES OF COURSE I WANT A FULL INVESTIGATIO!
It is YOU who appear to be ever narrowing the terms of the investigating by insisting that only the religious orders are investigated! Yo don't seem to realise how hopelessly blinkered by your blind hatred of religion you appear. Why can't you just wait till the investigation has taken place and accept the report that follows? I'm prepared to accept it and I look forward to reading it but you want to disseminate something that doesn't yet exist..
Accept that you swallowed a whole load of hokum and determine to be more discerning in future.

mrsbyrne

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Am I the only one seeing the delicious irony in a religious accusing others of being duped by words written by men?

Ah but I'm not being duped , am i ? Unless of course you have proof that I am? The proof that these posters were totally suckered in by lies and nonsense is here on these pages.

Birroc

mrsbyrne wrote: »

What do you mean "Again I ask" Your not standing at the dispatch box in the house of commons you know! How many times do you have to ask and how many times do I have to tell you YES OF COURSE I WANT A FULL INVESTIGATIO!
It is YOU who appear to be ever narrowing the terms of the investigating by insisting that only the religious orders are investigated! Yo don't seem to realise how hopelessly blinkered by your blind hatred of religion you appear. Why can't you just wait till the investigation has taken place and accept the report that follows? I'm prepared to accept it and I look forward to reading it but you want to disseminate something that doesn't yet exist..
Accept that you swallowed a whole load of hokum and determine to be more discerning in future.

You missed a capital n there.

I cant determine the scope of the investigation so I don't what you're waffling about there. The government will do that very soon. I hope they investigate ALL aspects of the mother and baby homes. I also hope they find where the bodies were buried and erect a headstone with all 800 names. I also hope they do that in the other mother and baby homes throughout Ireland. And if the report is another nail in the coffin of Vatican Inc, then so be it.

Birroc

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Ah but I'm not being duped , am i ? Unless of course you have proof that I am? The proof that these posters were totally suckered in by lies and nonsense is here on these pages.

You didn't get Ghost Buster's point. Try again. (Clue, its a old book)

Spring Onion

Interesting blog here;

http://izzykamikaze.tumblr.com/post/89770303451/vaults-under-tuambabies-site-are-part-of-sewage-system

New evidence has come to light in the #TuamBabies case, which took the world by storm in recent weeks. This evidence tends to support the view of local researcher Catherine Corless - that the bodies of almost 800 children who perished at the site may be inside the disused sewage system of the Workhouse which occupied the siteprior to the opening of the Mother and Baby Home (a Catholic institution for unmarried mothers and their children.)

For the past 10 days or so, various vested interests have tried to discredit the story as a hoax. They’ve been able to do so due to faults in how the story was treated by mainstream media. The story broke in the Irish Mail on Sunday of 23rd May. (Please note: the original story was published only in the print edition and the words “septic tank” were not used.

mrsbyrne

Birroc wrote: »

You didn't get Ghost Buster's point. Try again. (Clue, its a old book)

Oh I did get the point though. I have the proof that you were duped. Where is the proof that I was duped?
Cos that's your whole problem birroc, you have no proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist. You obsess about it night and day and obsessing about something you don't believe exists is a bit odd but still there's no proof. Don't worry. That would make me angry too.

PopePalpatine

mrsbyrne wrote: »

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100277164/associated-press-apologises-for-its-incorrect-reporting-of-the-tuam-babies-scandal/

Expect the Iona Institute to parade this around while chanting "Kirche, Kirche, über alles!"

Quite frankly, nowadays it's a badge of honour to be labelled as "ANTI-CATHOLIC" by the RCC's Internetschutzstaffel.

mrsbyrne

Birroc wrote: »

You missed a capital n there.

I cant determine the scope of the investigation so I don't what you're waffling about there. The government will do that very soon. I hope they investigate ALL aspects of the mother and baby homes. I also hope they find where the bodies were buried and erect a headstone with all 800 names. I also hope they do that in the other mother and baby homes throughout Ireland. And if the report is another nail in the coffin of Vatican Inc, then so be it.

Would you agree that the names of the babies will only go on the headstones with the express agreement of their families, or do their wishes not matter at all?

Ghost Buster

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Oh I did get the point though. I have the proof that you were duped. Where is the proof that I was duped?
Cos that's your whole problem birroc, you have no proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist. You obsess about it night and day and obsessing about something you don't believe exists is a bit odd but still there's no proof. Don't worry. That would make me angry too.

No no, you have no proof that he does. The one making the claim provides the proof.

Spring Onion

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Oh I did get the point though. I have the proof that you were duped. Where is the proof that I was duped?
Cos that's your whole problem birroc, you have no proof whatsoever that God doesn't exist. You obsess about it night and day and obsessing about something you don't believe exists is a bit odd but still there's no proof. Don't worry. That would make me angry too.

Just for you Mrs B

Spring Onion

Ghost Buster wrote: »

No no, you have no proof that he does. The one making the claim provides the proof.

Absolutely agree but I don't think we need the thread going that way. It would divert from the issues at hand.

Spring Onion

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Expect the Iona Institute to parade this around while chanting "Kirche, Kirche, über alles!"

Quite frankly, nowadays it's a badge of honour to be labelled as "ANTI-CATHOLIC" by the RCC's Internetschutzstaffel.

Those afflicted by the Stockholm Syndrome wish to become martyrs to the cause.

Birroc

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Would you agree that the names of the babies will only go on the headstones with the express agreement of their families, or do their wishes not matter at all?

No. Those babies were people too. People without a voice. They deserve a memorial. I would not seek agreement from relatives. Besides, the babies names were all over the papers last week.

Neyite

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Would you agree that the names of the babies will only go on the headstones with the express agreement of their families, or do their wishes not matter at all?

These children were wards of the state. They were unwanted and unwelcome to those families. They didn't give a damn about them decades ago, why would they now?

RDM_83 again

Spring Onion wrote: »

For the past 10 days or so, various vested interests have tried to discredit the story as a hoax. They’ve been able to do so due to faults in how the story was treated by mainstream media. The story broke in the Irish Mail on Sunday of 23rd May. (Please note: the original story was published only in the print edition and the words “septic tank” were not used.

Thanks for the link, its a good theory alright but at the minute it doesn't change anything since we are still running of a handful of eyewitness reports 4 decades ago at a site where there is a strong possibility of human remains from previous use.

Muise... wrote: »

The high mortality rate is fact. The undocumented burials and a thus far unknown number of small skeletons found buried unmarked in the grounds are fact. (Don't start on the unknown number - one is too many.) Unless they forged the death certificates and faked the bones to test your faith mrsbyrne?

Thats not a fact yet though is it? at least in the context of the mother and baby home.

Birroc wrote: »

I also hope they find where the bodies were buried and erect a headstone with all 800 names. I also hope they do that in the other mother and baby homes throughout Ireland.

A practical point, there is 10 I think mother and baby homes, would you require that the bodies are counted, reburied etc?That would be indirectly beneficial to myself (due to employment) but it would be a massive undertaking. Or would would it be acceptable to work of the paper record, in which case uncertainty will exist about who is where and the original plan for a monument does seem appropriate.

A more philosophical point, is this outrage over the treatment of the disadvantaged and outcast specifically relating to the 'guilt' of the Irish State/ Church, or is it about remembering and recognizing these lost adults and children, if thats the case surely a massively expanded research program is needed considering these problems predate the Irish State, this site with its Union workhouse being a good example.

jank

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Am I the only one seeing the delicious irony in a religious accusing others of being duped by words written by men?

I'm not religious per say but I can smell populist hysteria a mile away. Regardless of your religious or non religious persuasion one should always seek the truth. Categorising this as a us vs them says more about your ability to format an argument than anything else.

Ghost Buster

jank wrote: »

I'm not religious per say but I can smell populist hysteria a mile away. Regardless of your religious or non religious persuasion one should always seek the truth. Categorising this as a us vs them says more about your ability to format an argument than anything else.

More irony. Religious seeking the truth indeed. They generally bury it. Literally.

K-9

I'd agree people should take into account societal issues at the time, ones the Church played a big part in creating and not doing too much to get rid of them, but blaming 800 years and British colonialism seems far fetched!

humanji

I've had to delete some posts, and I'm going to start banning people if they continue to take swipes at each other or ignore the warnings already made on this thread.