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796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

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Comments

  • #182
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,886 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I have nothing to say for this story other than it is morally disgusting to do this to children of any kind.

    The UN, ECHR or Interpol should have the need to investigate this heinous crime immediately.

    RIP to all the babies who were killed.


  • #183
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Manach wrote: »
    As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.
    So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church

    I studied common sense and when bodies are buried in a fashion designed to hide the body I get suspicious.


  • #184
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    I have nothing to say for this story other than it is morally disgusting to do this to children of any kind.

    The UN, ECHR or Interpol should have the need to investigate this heinous crime immediately.

    I completely agree, but how could it be brought to their attention?


  • #185
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Deleted User wrote: »
    These Mother and Baby homes were funded (well) by the state.
    They were also being paid for laundry services as well as (apparently) adoption fees.

    So if the funds for nutrition and healthcare were available, and if appropriately used, the poverty issues then should fade away, what exactly is left?

    The finances of the state since independence had always been poor. Unhelpfully with the state gets into Economic Wars or nationalist building projects. Can you inpute that the funds were sufficient on to the task? Given the judicial furore over funding for St. Patrick's institution, it is doubtful you can.


  • #186
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I studied common sense and when bodies are buried in a fashion designed to hide the body I get suspicious.

    So you've no CSI skills then, or impute a motive when it was custom in other branches of burial traditions to create ossaries or from a non-Church tradition to gather remains after a while to reuse the land - akin to UK councils?


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  • #187
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,414 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Manach wrote: »
    So you've no CSI skills then, or impute a motive when it was custom in other branches of burial traditions to create ossaries or from a non-Church tradition to gather remains after a while to reuse the land - akin to UK councils?

    And is it customary to use septic tanks too in these cases?


  • #188
    beanie.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭beanie.


    RobertKK wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/
    He points out that in the mid-1940s in Ireland, about 500 children died every year of vaccine preventable diseases, such as measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, tuberculosis and polio.
    http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19092
    As you pointed out, around 500 died every year in the entire country.
    If there are 800 bodies from a 40 yr period in Tuam, that averages to 20 a year, so that's 4% of the of all the dead children for one year are from the one home in Tuam.
    Wonder what the figure would look like if we were able to add in children from all the other church run homes nation wide.


  • #189
    Dennis Aggressive Luck
    Posts: 0 ✭ Dennis Aggressive Luck


    Manach wrote: »
    The finances of the state since independence had always been poor. Unhelpfully with the state gets into Economic Wars or nationalist building projects. Can you inpute that the funds were sufficient on to the task? Given the judicial furore over funding for St. Patrick's institution, it is doubtful you can.

    Deemed excessive at the time.

    http://www.rabble.ie/2014/05/28/the-septic-tank-full-of-secrets/
    Newspaper reports from the period are few but they give some insight. From the outset the ‘Home’ is subject to economic review. Clippings from the Connacht Tribune (see below) show that ‘inmates’, as the infants were called, had an upkeep of 10 shillings per week which was judged excessive especially when they were fed by nursing mothers.


    http://www.rabble.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/contractTUAM.png

    http://www.rabble.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/TUAM1928.png

    Given that the home was paid more than the national average wage per mother, there is no acceptable reasoning for the mortality rate to be many multiples of the national mortality rate.

    Also, note the huge increase in life expectancy from 1940 onwards.
    http://www.rabble.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Screen-Shot-2014-05-27-at-23.34.16.png


  • #190
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    beanie. wrote: »
    As you pointed out, around 500 died every year in the entire country.
    If there are 800 bodies from a 40 yr period in Tuam, that averages to 20 a year, so that's 4% of the of all the dead children for one year are from the one home in Tuam.
    Wonder what the figure would look like if we were able to add in children from all the other church run homes nation wide.

    And those are the ones that they bothered to record.


  • #191
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    o1s1n wrote: »
    And is it customary to use septic tanks too in these cases?

    I claim no great expertise in burial practices, but from what I remember from other eras/UK, burials grounds when deemed no longer fit for purpose get turned into development and the remains dump. Perhaps there should be an investiagtion there as well?


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  • #192
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    Manach wrote: »
    As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.
    So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Did not say that either, would people please read what I post, I said "we don't know how many deaths were unnatural."

    If people want to not read what I post, make up stuff, then there is no point continuing the discussion.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    I am defending no one. I was just looking at it from the disease side of things, then people get their knickers in knots over it, as I said we don't know how many deaths were unnatural and I did raise the point of where they were buried.
    Some people choose to be unreasonable,


    The children at Tuam had a mortality rate 4 times higher than the National Average at the time. Do you know what that means? It means 4 times as many children died at that home than children in the general population. How is that natural? Statistics alone show it to be unnatural.

    Manach, you seem to be into stats? Explain how 4 times as many children dying is natural? Especially when an annual industrial wage per child was received by the nuns. Why were health inspectors reporting malnourished children??


  • #193
    beanie.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭beanie.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    These Mother and Baby homes were reportedly funded very well by the state.
    They were also being paid for laundry services as well as (apparently) adoption fees.

    So the funds for nutrition and healthcare were available, and (if) appropriately used, the poverty issues (should) then fade away, what exactly is left?

    Also worth mentioning that a lot of nuns worked as nurses and would have had medical knowledge/cop on.


  • #194
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Deemed excessive at the time.

    http://www.rabble.ie/2014/05/28/the-septic-tank-full-of-secrets/
    You are quoting a source that I've assuming is not some type of peer-reviewed paper or book, Instead it is a "rabble aims to create a space for the passionate telling of truth, muck-raking journalism and well aimed pot-shots at illegitimate authority"
    Grand if you have the capacity to allow google searches how to react to a story instead of acquiring the mental tools to do so yourself.


  • #195
    Reformed Character
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Reformed Character


    Manach wrote: »
    As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.
    So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church

    Evidence shows that infant mortality rates in these place were up to 5 times higher that in the rest of the population.


  • #196
    Reformed Character
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Reformed Character


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I am defending no one. I was just looking at it from the disease side of things, then people get their knickers in knots over it, as I said we don't know how many deaths were unnatural and I did raise the point of where they were buried.
    Some people choose to be unreasonable,

    Stop repeating the lie that we don't know how they died, we do know, the majority died of starvation, fact.


  • #197
    Dennis Aggressive Luck
    Posts: 0 ✭ Dennis Aggressive Luck


    Manach wrote: »
    You are quoting a source that I've assuming is not some type of peer-reviewed paper or book, Instead it is a "rabble aims to create a space for the passionate telling of truth, muck-raking journalism and well aimed pot-shots at illegitimate authority"
    Grand if you have the capacity to allow google searches how to react to a story instead of acquiring the mental tools to do so yourself.

    It is a blog that has scanned and posted newspaper clippings from the time. Had I hosted the clippings on image shack would that make them more or less acceptable to you? Is it any wonder that a blog that aims to unearth truth has found the clippings?

    I don't accept your loose insult either.


  • #198
    Umadbrah?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 164 ✭✭Umadbrah?


    Hannibal Smith wrote: »
    What I find really eerie is the way RTE reported it. The item was way down the story list and was reported in a way to highlight the good nature of the nuns contributing to a memorial being erected to the children. Completely overlooking how or why the bodies ended up in the septic tank in the first place. What kind of independent journalism is that???

    I wasn't alive then and im no historian or sociologist but but judging by what was going on in Europe at the time it doesn't seem like there was a great amount of value put on human life as a whole. And what kind of information was available to the public? Did they know what was going on?

    Either way. ..we're not in the 50s now and how come such an outrageous storyline is getting such little coverage by the media? The two boys who found the tank are grown men now...so who kept the story quiet until now? And why is it being dealt with in such a manner that the nuns come out of it the good guys for contributing to a memorial?

    For some reason in this country the nuns are let away with a hell of a lot, the women in the laundries all they got was an apology and some state financed compensation. Why don't the nuns have to sell off their lands and convents to contribute to the compensation fund? And why aren't they being hauled in by the gardai in relation to this story?


    Yeah and meanwhile the media will go on and on about how Sinn Fein are evil murders even though that crap happened in time of war...


  • #199
    Umadbrah?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 164 ✭✭Umadbrah?


    Manach wrote: »
    So you've no CSI skills then, or impute a motive when it was custom in other branches of burial traditions to create ossaries or from a non-Church tradition to gather remains after a while to reuse the land - akin to UK councils?

    Yeah and it's normal to dump almost 1000 kids bodies in a septic tank???


  • #200
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Manach, you seem to be into stats? Explain how 4 times as many children dying is natural? Especially when an annual industrial wage per child was received by the nuns. Why were health inspectors reporting malnourished children??

    1 - The children had come from an impoverished section of society and hence might not have been as healthy as the norms and more prone to dying.
    2- I'd actually take their reports as being truthful, at first glance. So if you have a link to one of such,I'd look.


  • #201
    Cunning Stunt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭Cunning Stunt


    I can't get over the response from the church's ''scandal containment unit'' (which says a lot in itself!). It really is the icing on the cake. Sickening.

    ''I assure you, those bodies are just resting in that mass grave. Cover up the mistreatment of children? Not at all. We’ve always planned to exhume them and bury them properly, and we’re going to get right on it really soon”.


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  • #202
    Reformed Character
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Reformed Character


    Manach wrote: »
    You are quoting a source that I've assuming is not some type of peer-reviewed paper or book, Instead it is a "rabble aims to create a space for the passionate telling of truth, muck-raking journalism and well aimed pot-shots at illegitimate authority"
    Grand if you have the capacity to allow google searches how to react to a story instead of acquiring the mental tools to do so yourself.

    The source he is quoting is in itself quoting from direct research.
    Facts:
    nuns were paid more than the average industrial wage per child.
    Children's death certs recorded the cause of death as starvation.
    Fact, the bodies of dead children were thrown into a septic tank.
    Fact, the states own Chief Medical Officer closed one home in the 1940's because of the conditions and the abnormally high mortality rate.
    Your attempts to trivialize this shocking treatment of the most vulnerable by the RCC is beyond understanding.


  • #203
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    A politician wanted to raise this in the Dail today and was refused permission

    There's a strict order of business that has to be adhered to in the Dail.

    At a guess I would say the politician game from the cohort of loonie lefties.


  • #204
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,241 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    There's a strict order of business that has to be adhered to in the Dail.

    At a guess I would say the politician game from the cohort of loonie lefties.

    Well probably... the others are busy dragging victims through the courts :rolleyes:


  • #205
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Manach wrote: »
    The finances of the state since independence had always been poor. Unhelpfully with the state gets into Economic Wars or nationalist building projects. Can you inpute that the funds were sufficient on to the task? Given the judicial furore over funding for St. Patrick's institution, it is doubtful you can.

    The nuns were paid, by the state, an average industrial wage of the time, per inmate.
    They also ran laundries, and other businesses, made a profit and did not pay the staff out of those profits.
    They sold healthy babies for steep sums of money to wealthy americans.
    And they served very little, sub-standard food to those inmates to the point where they would become malnourished or starved, or become unable to fight off diseases that a healthier child would not die from.

    So, yeah, I reckon the nuns had enough money to do provide heathcare, proper nutrition and heat/ warm clothing for these children.

    I've never heard of a nun, brother or priest starving in these homes.


  • #206
    Dennis Aggressive Luck
    Posts: 0 ✭ Dennis Aggressive Luck


    Cunning Stunt wrote: »
    I can't get over the response from the church's ''scandal containment unit'' (which says a lot in itself!). It really is the icing on the cake. Sickening.

    ''I assure you, those bodies are just resting in that mass grave. Cover up the mistreatment of children? Not at all. We’ve always planned to exhume them and bury them properly, and we’re going to get right on it really soon”.

    Waterford Whispers is a satirical website. Akin to The Onion.

    Those quotes are not accurate.


  • #207
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,886 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    I completely agree, but how could it be brought to their attention?

    I am not an expert in anything political but any of these developments could take place.

    Ireland is a member of the UN after all. I would suggest that Eamon Gilmore could ask the UN to investigate the matter in the closet possible time and I would mean as ASAP.

    The three organisations can study these developments for grounds of crimes against humanity and cruelty once they are given word from the Irish authorities.

    Given the gravity of this story is being unfolded before us, it might be a reference in point for a diplomat or high ranking police official in these organisations to authorise an immediate investigation in to what had happened at this "home" to see if this story is in danger of breaching international law.


  • #208
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Reformed Character wrote: »
    The source he is quoting is in itself quoting from direct research.
    Facts:
    nuns were paid more than the average industrial wage per child.
    Children's death certs recorded the cause of death as starvation.
    Fact, the bodies of dead children were thrown into a septic tank.
    Fact, the states own Chief Medical Officer closed one home in the 1940's because of the conditions and the abnormally high mortality rate.
    Your attempts to trivialize this shocking treatment of the most vulnerable by the RCC is beyond understanding.

    What I'm doing is trying to put this into some sort of context and not use it, like some articles in a national newspaper, as some type of club to press for social change.
    I'm also familiar with how children and perceived undesirable were treated in that era with a wider framework, and came from that position along a long time before this issue arose. Thus at least I'm able to place this within a broader picture instead of what a majority of posters here are doing and at have obtain the skills needed to understand it. To do otherwise, that for me is beyond understanding.


  • #209
    StudentDad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    Manach wrote: »
    1 - The children had come from an impoverished section of society and hence might not have been as healthy as the norms and more prone to dying.
    2- I'd actually take their reports as being truthful, at first glance. So if you have a link to one of such,I'd look.

    Wow. Therefore it's okay to dispose of deceased babies in a sewer?

    From what I understand these children and mothers were incarcerated by the church and you don't feel that it has anything to answer for?

    If prisoners in Mountjoy started dying and were disposed of on the QT in a sewer there would be hell to pay.

    SD


  • #210
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    StudentDad wrote: »
    From what I understand these children and mothers were incarcerated by the church and you don't feel that it has anything to answer for?

    Incarcerated either for or with the permision of the State, with the agreement, in most cases of their families and held in church run institutions.

    The rest of your post is true though.


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  • #211
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Neyite wrote: »

    So, yeah, I reckon the nuns had enough money to do provide heathcare, proper nutrition and heat/ warm clothing for these children.

    I've never heard of a nun, brother or priest starving in these homes.

    And if you've the account books that showed the malfeasance, or that the wages paid were sufficient by the state, or have experience in that area post away.

    As for hungery clergy, from my own family's tale I'd attest that when times were hard, there were numerous thin ones as they shared their resources with the poor. Many civil-servants did that at the time?


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