Manach wrote: » As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden. So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church
dublinman1990 wrote: » I have nothing to say for this story other than it is morally disgusting to do this to children of any kind. The UN, ECHR or Interpol should have the need to investigate this heinous crime immediately.
Deleted User wrote: » These Mother and Baby homes were funded (well) by the state. They were also being paid for laundry services as well as (apparently) adoption fees. So if the funds for nutrition and healthcare were available, and if appropriately used, the poverty issues then should fade away, what exactly is left?
steddyeddy wrote: » I studied common sense and when bodies are buried in a fashion designed to hide the body I get suspicious.
Manach wrote: » So you've no CSI skills then, or impute a motive when it was custom in other branches of burial traditions to create ossaries or from a non-Church tradition to gather remains after a while to reuse the land - akin to UK councils?
RobertKK wrote: » http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/ He points out that in the mid-1940s in Ireland, about 500 children died every year of vaccine preventable diseases, such as measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, tuberculosis and polio. http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19092
He points out that in the mid-1940s in Ireland, about 500 children died every year of vaccine preventable diseases, such as measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, tuberculosis and polio.
Manach wrote: » The finances of the state since independence had always been poor. Unhelpfully with the state gets into Economic Wars or nationalist building projects. Can you inpute that the funds were sufficient on to the task? Given the judicial furore over funding for St. Patrick's institution, it is doubtful you can.
Newspaper reports from the period are few but they give some insight. From the outset the ‘Home’ is subject to economic review. Clippings from the Connacht Tribune (see below) show that ‘inmates’, as the infants were called, had an upkeep of 10 shillings per week which was judged excessive especially when they were fed by nursing mothers.
beanie. wrote: » As you pointed out, around 500 died every year in the entire country. If there are 800 bodies from a 40 yr period in Tuam, that averages to 20 a year, so that's 4% of the of all the dead children for one year are from the one home in Tuam. Wonder what the figure would look like if we were able to add in children from all the other church run homes nation wide.
o1s1n wrote: » And is it customary to use septic tanks too in these cases?
Manach wrote: » As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church
RobertKK wrote: » Did not say that either, would people please read what I post, I said "we don't know how many deaths were unnatural." If people want to not read what I post, make up stuff, then there is no point continuing the discussion.
RobertKK wrote: » I am defending no one. I was just looking at it from the disease side of things, then people get their knickers in knots over it, as I said we don't know how many deaths were unnatural and I did raise the point of where they were buried. Some people choose to be unreasonable,
Deleted User wrote: » These Mother and Baby homes were reportedly funded very well by the state. They were also being paid for laundry services as well as (apparently) adoption fees. So the funds for nutrition and healthcare were available, and (if) appropriately used, the poverty issues (should) then fade away, what exactly is left?
Deleted User wrote: » Deemed excessive at the time.http://www.rabble.ie/2014/05/28/the-septic-tank-full-of-secrets/
Manach wrote: » You are quoting a source that I've assuming is not some type of peer-reviewed paper or book, Instead it is a "rabble aims to create a space for the passionate telling of truth, muck-raking journalism and well aimed pot-shots at illegitimate authority" Grand if you have the capacity to allow google searches how to react to a story instead of acquiring the mental tools to do so yourself.
Hannibal Smith wrote: » What I find really eerie is the way RTE reported it. The item was way down the story list and was reported in a way to highlight the good nature of the nuns contributing to a memorial being erected to the children. Completely overlooking how or why the bodies ended up in the septic tank in the first place. What kind of independent journalism is that??? I wasn't alive then and im no historian or sociologist but but judging by what was going on in Europe at the time it doesn't seem like there was a great amount of value put on human life as a whole. And what kind of information was available to the public? Did they know what was going on? Either way. ..we're not in the 50s now and how come such an outrageous storyline is getting such little coverage by the media? The two boys who found the tank are grown men now...so who kept the story quiet until now? And why is it being dealt with in such a manner that the nuns come out of it the good guys for contributing to a memorial? For some reason in this country the nuns are let away with a hell of a lot, the women in the laundries all they got was an apology and some state financed compensation. Why don't the nuns have to sell off their lands and convents to contribute to the compensation fund? And why aren't they being hauled in by the gardai in relation to this story?
Flippyfloppy wrote: » Manach, you seem to be into stats? Explain how 4 times as many children dying is natural? Especially when an annual industrial wage per child was received by the nuns. Why were health inspectors reporting malnourished children??
SEPT 23 1989 wrote: » A politician wanted to raise this in the Dail today and was refused permission
padd b1975 wrote: » There's a strict order of business that has to be adhered to in the Dail. At a guess I would say the politician game from the cohort of loonie lefties.
Cunning Stunt wrote: » I can't get over the response from the church's ''scandal containment unit'' (which says a lot in itself!). It really is the icing on the cake. Sickening. ''I assure you, those bodies are just resting in that mass grave. Cover up the mistreatment of children? Not at all. We’ve always planned to exhume them and bury them properly, and we’re going to get right on it really soon”.
denhaagenite wrote: » I completely agree, but how could it be brought to their attention?
Reformed Character wrote: » The source he is quoting is in itself quoting from direct research. Facts: nuns were paid more than the average industrial wage per child. Children's death certs recorded the cause of death as starvation. Fact, the bodies of dead children were thrown into a septic tank. Fact, the states own Chief Medical Officer closed one home in the 1940's because of the conditions and the abnormally high mortality rate. Your attempts to trivialize this shocking treatment of the most vulnerable by the RCC is beyond understanding.
Manach wrote: » 1 - The children had come from an impoverished section of society and hence might not have been as healthy as the norms and more prone to dying. 2- I'd actually take their reports as being truthful, at first glance. So if you have a link to one of such,I'd look.
StudentDad wrote: » From what I understand these children and mothers were incarcerated by the church and you don't feel that it has anything to answer for?
Neyite wrote: » So, yeah, I reckon the nuns had enough money to do provide heathcare, proper nutrition and heat/ warm clothing for these children. I've never heard of a nun, brother or priest starving in these homes.
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