796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

hotmail.com · 04-06-2014 12:56PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Humans are mammals, I am just thinking from a point of disease and the spread of disease and my experience from other mammals - we can get some of the same diseases.
If they had bad housing (probably only got electricity and running water towards the end of that period in question) and overcrowded, it would have helped the spread of certain diseases - this would give a marked increase above the national average - you would have people vunerable to disease housed too closely and I have seen it with viral pneumonia how it can spread quickly through a group.
Measles would be a disaster as would TB.

Buried in a septic tank though, that is really what takes the biscuit, until we know excluding disease, how many of the 796 were from unnatural deaths.

You don't have a clue.

RobertKK · 04-06-2014 12:57PM

Colser wrote: »

I really think you are missing the point..What takes the biscuit is what happened prior to the babies deaths...the septic tank is just the icing on the cake.

It could be disease, we can just speculate how they died. All we know is where their bodies were put.
That is the point.

RobertKK · 04-06-2014 12:58PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

You don't have a clue.

I thought you didn't want to communicate with me...

FTA69 · 04-06-2014 12:59PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing though is you can have a clean home, it doesn't prevent disease, a child rooting in the dirt outside is far more likely to be healthier than a child who is given antibacterials to clean their hands all the time and told not to get their hands dirty.

Family homes should be better, the high concentration of children wouldn't have helped. I don't want to labour on that point as we don't know how many deaths were unnatural.

Here we go. The usual contortions to justify institutionalised neglect and abuse by those who can't see what's in front of their face.

Imagine taking the body of a dead nine-year old and throwing them in a concrete sh*t box on top of other corpses.

Very Christian alright.

steddyeddy · 04-06-2014 01:00PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing though is you can have a clean home, it doesn't prevent disease, a child rooting in the dirt outside is far more likely to be healthier than a child who is given antibacterials to clean their hands all the time and told not to get their hands dirty.

Family homes should be better, the high concentration of children wouldn't have helped. I don't want to labour on that point as we don't know how many deaths were unnatural.

Do you understand the word "malnutrition"?

bumper234 · 04-06-2014 01:00PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It could be disease, we can just speculate how they died. All we know is where their bodies were put.
That is the point.

Well so far we know 100 was due to malnutrition, even though these religious orders were getting a stipend from the state to home/fed them and they also had lucrative laundry contracts and free labour. Sounds like most of the money was just shipped off to the Vatican.

o1s1n · 04-06-2014 01:00PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It could be disease, we can just speculate how they died. All we know is where their bodies were put.
That is the point.

Eh, it seems you missed this post;

Reformed Character wrote: »

Which part of "The death certificates show the cause of death as malnutrition" do you not get?
Not Tb, not measles, malnutrition/starvation!

Colser · 04-06-2014 01:03PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It could be disease, we can just speculate how they died. All we know is where their bodies were put.
That is the point.

It certainly could be or it could be to do with the treatment they recieved that was witnessed by so many women at the time and whos stories seem to have been ignored.

hotmail.com · 04-06-2014 01:03PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Here we go. The usual contortions to justify institutionalised neglect and abuse by those who can't see what's in front of their face.

Imagine taking the body of a dead nine-year old and throwing them in a concrete sh*t box on top of other corpses.

Very Christian alright.

And yet they hear one bad story about a gay person and they are able to believe that all gay people are bad.

Countless horror stories about the Catholic Church and they still defend them. Sick.

RobertKK · 04-06-2014 01:07PM

Reformed Character wrote: »

Which part of "The death certificates show the cause of death as malnutrition" do you not get?
Not Tb, not measles, malnutrition/starvation!

She found that the children died of malnutrition and neglect, as well as illnesses such as measles, tuberculosis and pneumonia.

http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/

According to Prof Denis Gill, a consultant paediatric nephrologist and chairperson of the National Immunisation Advisory Committee 2010 - 2011, the facts are simple.
"If you have 100% vaccine uptake, you get disease eradication. If you have 90-95% uptake, you get disease elimination. Greater than 80% uptake gives you disease control, but less than 70% uptake means that outbreaks and mini-epidemics are possible," he tells Irishhealth.com.
He points out that in the mid-1940s in Ireland, about 500 children died every year of vaccine preventable diseases, such as measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, tuberculosis and polio. Today's death rate figure for these illnesses is zero.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19092

So from 1924 to 1960 that would be about 18,000 children dead from diseases that vaccines alone now prevent.

Reformed Character · 04-06-2014 01:09PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing though is you can have a clean home, it doesn't prevent disease, a child rooting in the dirt outside is far more likely to be healthier than a child who is given antibacterials to clean their hands all the time and told not to get their hands dirty.

Family homes should be better, the high concentration of children wouldn't have helped. I don't want to labour on that point as we don't know how many deaths were unnatural.

Actually we DO know that from the death certs traced so far the most common cause starvation, I don't want to labour the point, but that is the fact.

Reformed Character · 04-06-2014 01:11PM

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/
She found that the children died of malnutrition and neglect, as well as illnesses such as measles, tuberculosis and pneumonia.
The mortality rate at the home was significantly higher than it was for children generally at the time in Ireland: a Dáil debate in February 1934 noted that one in three children born outside of marriage died within one year of their birth – a rate which was about five times higher than for other children.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19092

So from 1924 to 1960 that would be about 18,000 children dead from diseases that vaccines alone now prevent.

|I note that once again you fail to accept the fact that even in what you linked neglect and starvation are given as causes of death, why did you not choose to embolden them as well?

My name is URL · 04-06-2014 01:12PM

Grayson wrote: »

Finally the church should be held responsible and should pay reparations. Maybe they could give the land that schools are on to the state. We can't trust an organisation with that history with the education of children. I'm not saying they shouldn't be involved with religious education, but it should be after school hours.

Just the church? Why not the state and its agencies that allowed these places to exist in the first place? Gardai, courts, politicians... society as a whole at the time share some of the blame for what happened.

I remember reading stories about how Gardai would 'arrest' kids who had run away after being beaten and abused. They were returned to the institutions despite gardai knowing what had happened to them. The establishment back then allowed itself to be used as an agent of the church rather than as guardians of the people.

razor8 · 04-06-2014 01:12PM

The number of children exported and sold must also be enormous, the horrific memories they must of carried with them all their lives is unimaginable

Heard a woman speak on radio last week, her half brother was born in tuam then went into horrific foster care only 4 miles from where his real mum lived without knowing, she was left in home to breast feed until the baby was 1 yr 1 wk old then both were released. His foster mother used to tell him to wait on wall every Sunday that his mother was coming but she never did. He was just used as slave labour but got threw it and married himself

Arbitrary Constants · 04-06-2014 01:12PM

Things like this makes it easier for me to understand how atrocities such as the holocaust were allowed to happen.

Temptamperu · 04-06-2014 01:13PM

The thing about the bad conditions being to blame is part of the neglect in my eyes. The rcc is one of richest countries in the world and one of the richest organisations in the world. Why were conditions so bad when the church and its leaders had so much?

FTA69 · 04-06-2014 01:13PM

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19092

So from 1924 to 1960 that would be about 18,000 children dead from diseases that vaccines alone now prevent.

Oh so only a few of the bodies in the unmarked mass grave died of starvation? Sure that's grand so. And why were kids who were funded to a high level by the state dying of poverty diseases in the care of the richest organisation in the world?

RobertKK · 04-06-2014 01:14PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

And yet they hear one bad story about a gay person and they are able to believe that all gay people are bad.

Countless horror stories about the Catholic Church and they still defend them. Sick.

I did not say that, I know you don't like me but no need to bring it into the forum.

I tried to deal with you civilly via PM, you said "Don't message me again.", so I replied "Only if you ignore me on boards.ie, I will also ignore you and then neither of us will receive any messages."

Just get over it, it is stupid acting like that to someone on the internet or in life.
Then you talk about 'sick'.

Manach · 04-06-2014 01:15PM

As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.
So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church

SEPT 23 1989 · 04-06-2014 01:16PM

A politician wanted to raise this in the Dail today and was refused permission

RobertKK · 04-06-2014 01:17PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh so only a few of the bodies in the unmarked mass grave died of starvation? Sure that's grand so. And why were kids who were funded to a high level by the state dying of poverty diseases in the care of the richest organisation in the world?

Did not say that either, would people please read what I post, I said "we don't know how many deaths were unnatural."

If people want to not read what I post, make up stuff, then there is no point continuing the discussion.

bumper234 · 04-06-2014 01:17PM

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-tuam-home-1497779-Jun2014/

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19092

So from 1924 to 1960 that would be about 18,000 children dead from diseases that vaccines alone now prevent.

Some food for thought, The very institutions you are (badly) attempting to defend.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-1494001-May2014/

“CHERISH ALL THE children equally” is a defining Irish shibboleth, enshrined in the Proclamation of Independence. It is one of our highest aspirations and, like most of the things we Irish hold dearest, it is build on a solid foundation of utter hypocrisy.

796 children, the oldest nine years, the youngest two days old, are in that tank. Causes of death include “malnutrition, measles, convulsions, tuberculosis, gastroenteritis and pneumonia”. The tank is described as “filled to the brim with tiny bones and skulls”.

Unmarried mothers incarcerated until they signed over their babies, healthy children sold to be adopted by wealthy Americans and disabled infants, who had no sale value, abandoned in “Dying Rooms”, and their bodies dumped by the brides of Christ in a septic tank.

Hannibal Smith · 04-06-2014 01:18PM

What I find really eerie is the way RTE reported it. The item was way down the story list and was reported in a way to highlight the good nature of the nuns contributing to a memorial being erected to the children. Completely overlooking how or why the bodies ended up in the septic tank in the first place. What kind of independent journalism is that???

I wasn't alive then and im no historian or sociologist but but judging by what was going on in Europe at the time it doesn't seem like there was a great amount of value put on human life as a whole. And what kind of information was available to the public? Did they know what was going on?

Either way. ..we're not in the 50s now and how come such an outrageous storyline is getting such little coverage by the media? The two boys who found the tank are grown men now...so who kept the story quiet until now? And why is it being dealt with in such a manner that the nuns come out of it the good guys for contributing to a memorial?

For some reason in this country the nuns are let away with a hell of a lot, the women in the laundries all they got was an apology and some state financed compensation. Why don't the nuns have to sell off their lands and convents to contribute to the compensation fund? And why aren't they being hauled in by the gardai in relation to this story?

Reformed Character · 04-06-2014 01:18PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A politician wanted to raise this in the Dail today and was refused permission

Because the former Minister for Children and current Justice Minister has know the available facts for several years but has refused (according to the Sean O'Rourke show on RTE 1 this morning) to even answer emails and letters sent to both her Dept, and to her Dail office.

FTA69 · 04-06-2014 01:19PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Did not say that either, would people please read what I post, I said "we don't know how many deaths were unnatural."

If people want to not read what I post, make up stuff, then there is no point continuing the discussion.

Even if some of the deaths were natural, many if not most were not. The place had four times the national death rate for children, despite being in the care of a massively wealthy organisation. Do you not see how that's suspicious?

Does the subsequent treatment of these poor children's remains not give you an idea as to the extent they were held in esteem by the Church?

Colser · 04-06-2014 01:19PM

razor8 wrote: »

The number of children exported and sold must also be enormous, the horrific memories they must of carried with them all their lives is unimaginable

Heard a woman speak on radio last week, her half brother was born in tuam then went into horrific foster care only 4 miles from where his real mum lived without knowing, she was left in home to breast feed until the baby was 1 yr 1 wk old then both were released. His foster mother used to tell him to wait on wall every Sunday that his mother was coming but she never did. He was just used as slave labour but got threw it and married himself

I was listening to that also and it really upset me...to think that that is only one story and the ending is concidered a happy one..it beggars belief.

josip · 04-06-2014 01:19PM

Manach wrote: »

As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.
So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church

If only the rest of us had studied history, then perhaps we would be able to view the almost 800 children's bodies in a septic tank from your perspective.
I am thankful I didn't.

RobertKK · 04-06-2014 01:22PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Some food for thought, The very institutions you are (badly) attempting to defend.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-1494001-May2014/

I am defending no one. I was just looking at it from the disease side of things, then people get their knickers in knots over it, as I said we don't know how many deaths were unnatural and I did raise the point of where they were buried.
Some people choose to be unreasonable,

Manach · 04-06-2014 01:22PM

josip wrote: »

I am thankful I didn't.

Your choice not to be able to put these into a historical context or understand how events unfolded, yours entirely.

04-06-2014 01:22PM

Manach wrote: »

As someone who has studied history, I'm aware that the infant mortaliity rates were much higher in the past that in current times. With the main contributors to such death poverty and lack of appropriate health care. Place this in context, with many of the wealthy nations of the time also having to such issues and Ireland being a poor country, having a de facto policy of exporting population to UK/US. Also, medical mores in numerous countries were for the disposal of excess population, either directly as in USSR or via sterilisation as in Sweden.
So, the unless there is on balance evidence to the contrary then deceased are victims of the times, rather than an nefarious plot by the Church

These Mother and Baby homes were reportedly funded very well by the state.
They were also being paid for laundry services as well as (apparently) adoption fees.

So the funds for nutrition and healthcare were available, and (if) appropriately used, the poverty issues (should) then fade away, what exactly is left?

796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

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