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Season 4 Episode 7 "Mockingbird": *HAVE NOT* read the books

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  • #182
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Da Shins Kelly wrote: »
    There's a real paranoia out there about spoilers. I never type Game of Thrones into the Google search engine, and I'd never go near any Reddit threads about it. It seems like there are a lot of people out there desperate to spoil it.

    That said, I think a lot of hints are dropped throughout the show about what's going to happen, or what could potentially happen, so I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that people are just making educated guesses and prediction based on what's happened in the show so far. I've been re-watching old episodes with a housemate who has just gotten into it, and you end up noticing a lot more second time round. It's hard to keep on top of everything that happens in a single episode at first because there is so much going on, but when you watch it back, you notice little things.
    I also think that the producers of the show have somewhat spoiled it with their titles. There was a discussion earlier on in the non readers thread about when the Purple Wedding would take place. I correctly guessed it, based on the title and pre-show sub plot. Book readers all know what is coming but the excitement for us is not knowing when something will happen.

    The producers have not been subtle with their titles and I have known what to expect for every episode because of how they have named them. If I was a non book reader and I saw the titles of episodes, it wouldn't be hard for me to figure out what was to come. For example the next episode is named
    The Mountain and The Viper
    . When I saw that weeks ago, I knew what to expect. Non book readers who saw that wouldn't have had to use too many brain cells to realise what that meant and I'm not surprised they guessed
    who the champions would be
    .

    Maybe they saw the titles or maybe they are just making an educated guess but if I was a non book reader, I wouldn't be put off reading this thread because more often than not, the guesses in this thread are wrong ;)


  • #183
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    K_user wrote: »
    She hit a guy in the head, and while he was struggling with consciousness, she impaled him. Polliver was hit from behind, and she stabbed him in the throat while he was helpless.

    Both were attacks from a position of power. Both were kills from where she was in control and was able to take her time. Had she not slashed Polliver first, by surprise, there would have been a very different out come. One that didn't involve a long revenge speech.

    In this episode she faced a guy, who already had a drawn sword. There was no sneak attack. No hitting on the head from behind, distracting coin toss, or surprise slash on his back.

    She was face to face with a soldier, granted just a grunt, and she pulled a sword and killed him.

    This was the first time that Arya openly faced a man. Granted he probably wasn't expecting it. But it was still the first time that she killed someone who was looking right at her, who had the capability to fight back and who was armed.
    If you're going to be really picky, then the first man she stabbed was the Hound. While she got a belt in the face for her trouble, she did it with the intention of killing him.


  • #184
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    If you're going to be really picky, then the first man she stabbed was the Hound. While she got a belt in the face for her trouble, she did it with the intention of killing him.
    At least in that case it made some sense to ignore her attack completely...


  • #185
    mayordenis
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    Grimebox wrote: »
    So it turns out the "prediction" of the mountain vs oberyn was true.

    My only complaint of this whole show is how it jumps around too much. The scene with the red woman could have been in another episode where it could have been more relevant.

    If that's referring to me there's no need for the inverted commas.

    It made sense, Tyrion would never get a fair trial, it would be absolute mad for the king/court to choose any champion other than the mountain, and there was absolutely no way that Oberyn wouldn't take him on. It made sense, I stand by it.


  • #186
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    mayordenis wrote: »
    If that's referring to me there's no need for the inverted commas.

    It made sense, Tyrion would never get a fair trial, it would be absolute mad for the king/court to choose any champion other than the mountain, and there was absolutely no way that Oberyn wouldn't take him on. It made sense, I stand by it.
    Not a book reader here either, but saw it a mile away. Both him and The Mountain look slightly parachuted in TBH to have this big scrap and tie up some storylines.


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  • #187
    Lemlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,256 ✭✭✭✭Lemlin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not a book reader here either, but saw it a mile away. Both him and The Mountain look slightly parachuted in TBH to have this big scrap and tie up some storylines.

    The Mountain has been mentioned and seen since Season 1 so I wouldn't think of him as "parachuted in" to be honest. He's always been in the background and billed as the Lannister's fearsome henchman.

    A very valid reason has also been given for Oberyn's presence and he's now featured in seven episodes.

    You seem very keen to knock the series from your posts on this thread.


  • #188
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Lemlin wrote: »
    You seem very keen to knock the series from your posts on this thread.
    Excuse me for having an opinion. I didn't see "MUST BE A GOT SUPER FANBOI TO COMMENT" at the top of the thread. Some bits I like, some bits I don't.
    Gregor had one scrap years ago with Sandor and I think he was seen sat at a table or something for 5 seconds another instance. His screen time has been abysmally handled, as judged by the requirement for three different actors to portray him and the fact that a lot of people haven't even noticed this.
    Oberyn is a great character and brilliantly acted, but I still haven't seen a good reason for why he's allowed into town. If you'd ordered the men to the home of someone's family and they raped, tortured and murdered them, would you then invite the survivor around for tea and biscuits?


  • #189
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,773 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Excuse me for having an opinion. I didn't see "MUST BE A GOT SUPER FANBOI TO COMMENT" at the top of the thread. Some bits I like, some bits I don't.
    Gregor had one scrap years ago with Sandor and I think he was seen sat at a table or something for 5 seconds another instance. His screen time has been abysmally handled, as judged by the requirement for three different actors to portray him and the fact that a lot of people haven't even noticed this.
    Oberyn is a great character and brilliantly acted, but I still haven't seen a good reason for why he's allowed into town. If you'd ordered the men to the home of someone's family and they raped, tortured and murdered them, would you then invite the survivor around for tea and biscuits?

    Myrcella Barratheon was sent to Dorne to marry one of his nephews in an attempt to patch up things between the families. Cersei talked about this directly to him in the last few episodes. He's there to attend the Joffrey's wedding (along with his personal motives) because his brother Doran was too ill to travel. This has all been said on the show.


  • #190
    naughto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭naughto


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Excuse me for having an opinion. I didn't see "MUST BE A GOT SUPER FANBOI TO COMMENT" at the top of the thread. Some bits I like, some bits I don't.
    Gregor had one scrap years ago with Sandor and I think he was seen sat at a table or something for 5 seconds another instance. His screen time has been abysmally handled, as judged by the requirement for three different actors to portray him and the fact that a lot of people haven't even noticed this.
    Oberyn is a great character and brilliantly acted, but I still haven't seen a good reason for why he's allowed into town. If you'd ordered the men to the home of someone's family and they raped, tortured and murdered them, would you then invite the survivor around for tea and biscuits?

    It would depend on the biscuits


  • #191
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    As soon as I saw the mountain it was really obvious that oberon would do the champion thing.
    As soon as I saw the moon door was open I knew yer one was going flying.
    As soon as the hound explained where the heart was I knew arya would stab someone in the heart so when the bandits appeared it was no surprise.
    As soon as your man said he was good at two things I knew she was gonna shag him.

    Really obvious episode with some appreciated gratuitous redhead tittays


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  • #192
    SteelyDanJalapeno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,390 ✭✭✭✭SteelyDanJalapeno


    I guess the mountain will kill Oberyn.

    Have not read the books.


  • #193
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Myrcella Barratheon was sent to Dorne to marry one of his nephews in an attempt to patch up things between the families. Cersei talked about this directly to him in the last few episodes. He's there to attend the Joffrey's wedding (along with his personal motives) because his brother Doran was too ill to travel. This has all been said on the show.
    Yeah, I know he's there on some sort of official business. I just don't see how the whole "yeah, I sent the guy who raped and killed your sister" dynamic between Oberyn and Tywin could really turn out to be such a love in.


  • #194
    Duckworth_Luas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yeah, I know he's there on some sort of official business. I just don't see how the whole "yeah, I sent the guy who raped and killed your sister" dynamic between Oberyn and Tywin could really turn out to be such a love in.
    Explained by Tywin here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1o25dNp-Ds


  • #195
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Duckworth_Luas wrote: »
    Explained by Tywin here.
    Saw that. just ask yourself, if this man had sent the soldiers who raped and tortured your sister, would you have a conversation like that with him?
    Oberyn is a far more forgiving man than I!


  • #196
    zanador
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 505 ✭✭✭zanador


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Saw that. just ask yourself, if this man had sent the soldiers who raped and tortured your sister, would you have a conversation like that with him?
    Oberyn is a far more forgiving man than I!

    He's not forgiving - he's trying to get close to his enemies so he can kill them


  • #197
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    zanador wrote: »
    He's not forgiving - he's trying to get close to his enemies so he can kill them
    Wasn't that as good a chance as any in that scene? Sure, he knew he'd end up dead most likely, but a better chance than that?


  • #198
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,813 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Wasn't that as good a chance as any in that scene? Sure, he knew he'd end up dead most likely, but a better chance than that?

    What are you suggesting? He kill Tywin and try to go around killing Lannisters left, right and centre before escaping from King's Landing on horseback and having to put up with an enormous sh1tstorm from killing the King's hand and his family?

    If your answer to the above is yes, then you wouldn't survive for long in Westeros.


  • #199
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    I reckon that Oberyn believes that if he beats and kills the Mountain he will weaken Tywin in two ways. Directly as the Mountain is his main muscle, the guy that does the dirty jobs but also from a physiological perspective. He is also getting direct revenge on the man who did kill his sister and her kids.


  • #200
    Lemlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,256 ✭✭✭✭Lemlin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Excuse me for having an opinion. I didn't see "MUST BE A GOT SUPER FANBOI TO COMMENT" at the top of the thread. Some bits I like, some bits I don't.
    Gregor had one scrap years ago with Sandor and I think he was seen sat at a table or something for 5 seconds another instance. His screen time has been abysmally handled, as judged by the requirement for three different actors to portray him and the fact that a lot of people haven't even noticed this.
    Oberyn is a great character and brilliantly acted, but I still haven't seen a good reason for why he's allowed into town. If you'd ordered the men to the home of someone's family and they raped, tortured and murdered them, would you then invite the survivor around for tea and biscuits?

    Nobody said you had to be a fanboy but I wouldn't claim to watch the show closely and I could pick holes in your arguments.

    How many times has the character of the Mountain been mentioned? To me, it actually adds to the character how little we see of him - it's like a good horror film, the greatest terror is often the one you don't see.

    Was it not explained that Oberyn wasn't invited to the wedding in the first episode? Tyrion went out to meet Oberyn's brother and then it was explained that Oberyn had been sent in his stead. It was also mentioned that Oberyn's brother suffers from gout in a further episode where there was an exchange between Oberyn and Cersei/Tywin. Oberyn described it as a disease of the rich I do believe - hinting that he knows the Lannisters have money troubles.

    As for Tywin, the question has already been answered above quite adequately but, as explained in another episode and perhaps another reason why IMO, the Lannisters are running short of cash. The Martells seem to have plenty. I'll leave you to connect the dots as to why Tywin would want to be bosom buddies all of a sudden.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Saw that. just ask yourself, if this man had sent the soldiers who raped and tortured your sister, would you have a conversation like that with him?
    Oberyn is a far more forgiving man than I!


    Oberyn regularly mentions that he wants the "Lannisters" to suffer. Not just Tywin. I think his strategic plan is to get as close as he can and pick off as many as possible. As pointed out above, if he pulls out a dagger and stabs Tywin in the heart, he isn't going to get much further.

    The phrase "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" also comes to mind.


  • #201
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Lemlin wrote: »
    The phrase "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" also comes to mind.
    True, if you think you can pick them off one by one.
    If you want to bring down the house of Lannister though I would've thought it'd be easier to just not form a new alliance with them and not send them money if you know they're desperate.


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  • #202
    Lemlin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,256 ✭✭✭✭Lemlin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    True, if you think you can pick them off one by one.
    If you want to bring down the house of Lannister though I would've thought it'd be easier to just not form a new alliance with them and not send them money if you know they're desperate.

    But why not lead them on and then enjoy knocking them back? Why not let them think there's a hope and then rip that hope from them?

    Not sending them money would be too easy and what would stop the Lannisters from just looking for the money elsewhere? They're already looking towards links with the Tyrrells for example.

    There's a million different reasons Oberyn could be using the tactics he is. He's quite a complex character as it is. It seems to me that he is someone with huge intelligence but he also has a madness about him where he could do anything next. As I said previously, he and Dinklage have been superb in this series and part of the reason it has been my favourite so far.

    To put it in Game of Thrones-style wording, even with the Red Wedding, this series has pissed all over series 3 IMO.


  • #203
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    gandalf wrote: »
    I reckon that Oberyn believes that if he beats and kills the Mountain he will weaken Tywin in two ways. Directly as the Mountain is his main muscle, the guy that does the dirty jobs but also from a physiological perspective. He is also getting direct revenge on the man who did kill his sister and her kids.
    He'd weaken him a lot more with a knife in the guts at that brothel. :D


  • #204
    Anachrony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭Anachrony


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Excuse me for having an opinion. I didn't see "MUST BE A GOT SUPER FANBOI TO COMMENT" at the top of the thread.

    You don't have to be. You just have to think about and attempt to understand things on the most basic level before your poorly conceived criticism. Most of your suggestions would be completely unworkable for trivially obvious reasons, and that's what people are reacting to in your posts, not your rejection of some sort of fanboy orthodoxy. Other people criticize the show and don't get the kinds of reactions that you do, because they actually think before they post and may raise fair points, or at least not completely foolish ones.

    Oberyn is there as an official representative of his house, which controls a major territory of Westeros and is officially at peace with the throne despite their tense personal history. He has responsibilities. He can't fly off the handle like a maniac, even if that's what he might like to do.

    If he gets a chance to make things worse for the Lannisters with some valid pretense or plausible deniability, he'd love to do that. But he can't just start openly murdering them. That would start a war. A war that his lord doesn't want started and which they probably aren't prepared for or able to win.

    The man has children, siblings, and extended family that he cares about. He has a whole life and the lives of many others to take into account. If he goes on some hopeless rampage for the sake of personal satisfaction, it could mean the end of not just his own life but those of most of the people he cares about.

    The Lannisters let him in the door because despite their history they have made peace long ago, and there isn't open warfare between them. They know he's not that stupid. Apparently you are, though.


  • #205
    iamanengine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭iamanengine


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    snip

    Oh don't get me wrong, I have no problem with book readers posting here at all, I welcome you all, if anything it adds to the thread, as you said ye are on the look out for people who are posting spoilers.

    I only mean book readers who knowingly are posting spoilers under the guise of a guess! I just don't get what they get from it?!

    But yeah, nice book readers post away :pac:


  • #206
    seligehgit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    TiltedBrain wrote: »
    I guess the mountain will kill Oberyn.

    Have not read the books.

    For some perverse,totally irrational reason I think Oberyn will defeat the Mountain.
    Have not read the books.


  • #207
    Precious flower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Precious flower


    Love Oberyn! He can't die he's too hot for that!:D I have a feeling he won't lose but that in the next episode it'll be so close that the audience will think he is done for and then he will kill the mountain with one blow. GoT is all about suspense!! Good episode, especially Arya and the hound! Loved the scene between Dany and Daario! Something for the ladies to watch and to enjoy!;)


  • #208
    D Weasel
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 36 ✭D Weasel


    Would say yer man destroyed Daenerys! Pummelled to bits and licked in half!!!


  • #209
    EyeSight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭EyeSight


    D Weasel wrote: »
    Would say yer man destroyed Daenerys! Pummelled to bits and licked in half!!!

    I'm surprised there's anything else after Kahl in the first few episodes of season 1


  • #210
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Is it possible to lose the coming battle (any of these trial by combats in fact) and live? Can you yield at any point and the opponent must give mercy? Or can the opponent just take your head off regardless of you yielding?


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  • #211
    D Weasel
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 36 ✭D Weasel


    EyeSight wrote: »
    I'm surprised there's anything else after Kahl in the first few episodes of season 1

    Yeah she got taught a good lesson there !


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