Season 4 Episode 6 "The Laws of Gods and Men": HAVE read the books

Witcher · 14-05-2014 01:11PM

Hotale.com wrote: »

Killing Ramsay wasn't worth staying for?

When that was done and they had retreated anyway who would Roose have taken it out on?

Witcher · 14-05-2014 01:15PM

Mousewar wrote: »

I suppose that makes sense but then it was the failing of the show in not leaving that as the main impression on the viewer. The emphasis was on the dogs. It would have been far better to hear the feet of an approaching garrison and a lingering look at Theon before fleeing. Instead we got ramsey waving a key and a dog that would be felled in one swing of an ax barking.

It also made a mockery of all the buildup - her speech to her men on the boat, her speech to her father. And all for a five minute scene where she flees with her tail between her legs.

You could see on Yara's face that she was weighing up the situation. The very fact that she returned to her men shows that she values them leaving the Dreadfort more than taking her chances continuing a fight they were going to lose. Their only advantage was suprise and that was lost when the alarm sounded.

The non readers seem to have grasped her reasoning better than the readers. Readers seem to think the Ironborn are like Klingons and never surrender or retreat, they have done in the past and it's not a mark against them on the Iron Islands.

Mousewar · 14-05-2014 01:26PM

Blay wrote: »

You could see on Yara's face that she was weighing up the situation. The very fact that she returned to her men shows that she values them leaving the Dreadfort more than taking her chances continuing a fight they were going to lose. Their only advantage was suprise and that was lost when the alarm sounded.

The non readers seem to have grasped her reasoning better than the readers. Readers seem to think the Ironborn are like Klingons and never surrender or retreat, they have done in the past and it's not a mark against them on the Iron Islands.

I'm not criticising Yara's actions - just the shows depiction of them. The whole scene was a major anti-climax after her earlier pronouncements and the dog part of it was shoe-horned in where it wasn't needed and they failed to adequately articulate her thinking.

TimeToShine · 14-05-2014 02:47PM

Especially considering the dramatic ending to last season where she had her big speech about rescuing Theon.

The show needs Victarion/Euron introduced because as far as the viewers are concerned nobody gives a flying **** about the ironborn.

celica00 · 14-05-2014 03:00PM

But honestly. If you think about it from a human point of view (ignoring the books), it makes sense doesn't it?
Even with reading the books...the father already turned on him, she tried but now does the same for obvious reasons.

Boom_Bap · 14-05-2014 03:20PM

The dogs as shown in earlier an earlier episode are well used to hunting humans. This time though, they weren't abused unarmed hookers

Zillah · 14-05-2014 03:23PM

The scene with Yara was horrendously done. It was definitely set up so that they ran in fear from the dogs, which as said is ridiculous; armed and armoured soldiers have nothing to fear from a pack of dogs. Any claims about them fleeing because of an incoming garrison is pure invention. That would have made more sense but that was not what happened in the show.

There was only a half naked Ramsay and a couple of guards left in the room, there was no reason given for why they couldn't have finished them off and dragged Theon out. Obviously that can't happen, so she needs to fail for some reason, but it was badly handled.

rawn · 14-05-2014 03:34PM

Zillah wrote: »

The scene with Yara was horrendously done. It was definitely set up so that they ran in fear from the dogs, which as said is ridiculous; armed and armoured soldiers have nothing to fear from a pack of dogs. Any claims about them fleeing because of an incoming garrison is pure invention. That would have made more sense but that was not what happened in the show.

There was only a half naked Ramsay and a couple of guards left in the room, there was no reason given for why they couldn't have finished them off and dragged Theon out. Obviously that can't happen, so she needs to fail for some reason, but it was badly handled.

A pack of highly trained dogs and a couple of guards, one of whom fought barechested and survived, and with the danger of more guards arriving and all of this to rescue a gelded boy who didn't want to be saved and even bit her when she tried. It made sense to run, it would have been foolish to stay. Seemed fairly obvious to me anyways, I thought the scene was rushed but otherwise fine.

username123 · 14-05-2014 03:49PM

rawn wrote: »

A pack of highly trained dogs and a couple of guards, one of whom fought barechested and survived, and with the danger of more guards arriving and all of this to rescue a gelded boy who didn't want to be saved and even bit her when she tried. It made sense to run, it would have been foolish to stay. Seemed fairly obvious to me anyways, I thought the scene was rushed but otherwise fine.

Ramsay fighting bare chested summed up everything wrong with that scene to me. He was fighting armed and armoured men. He wouldn't have survived bare chested. He is only a bastard who was sent to live in his fathers castle at age 12, he wouldn't have the training to be some kind of amazing fighter.

pinkypinky · 14-05-2014 03:55PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

Especially considering the dramatic ending to last season where she had her big speech about rescuing Theon.

The show needs Victarion/Eurio introduced because as far as the viewers are concerned nobody gives a flying **** about the ironborn.

I have read the books and I couldn't care less about the Ironborn. I think the whole thing would be better without them, barring Theon's story.

TimeToShine · 14-05-2014 04:23PM

pinkypinky wrote: »

I have read the books and I couldn't care less about the Ironborn. I think the whole thing would be better without them, barring Theon's story.

I disagree entirely but of course it's all a matter of opinion! Euron has a big part to play in this story yet I think. I enjoyed the Kingsmoot and I liked Victarion's chapters as well, in fact I would have ranked Theon's chapters below theirs up until the end of ADWD.

celica00 · 14-05-2014 04:58PM

On another note: well trained (fighting) dogs can easily kill armored people within a heartbeat.

Sulla Felix · 14-05-2014 07:14PM

celica00 wrote: »

On another note: well trained (fighting) dogs can easily kill armored people within a heartbeat.
One or two maybe day(dogs) but still...

Yep, Greeks and Romans used armoured war dogs to great effect.

In this case, try concentrating on your opponent when a mastiff is locked on your ankle or wrist etc.

DM addict · 14-05-2014 07:45PM

War dogs can be effective, as others have said. Unless you're covered in f-ing plate mail, including ankles etc.

Saying that, she could have thrown an axe at his face before he let the dogs out. I think she just weighed up that it wasn't worth trying to save Theon anymore. And that they need a new plan to deal with the Boltons - living to fight another day and all that.

15-05-2014 01:03AM

pinkypinky wrote: »

I have read the books and I couldn't care less about the Ironborn. I think the whole thing would be better without them, barring Theon's story.

i think euron in particular is one of the more promising story lines in the books at the moment. victorian i can understand why people wouldnt like he's one of my favorite characters but he's definitely a love him or hate him type char.

Oranage2 · 15-05-2014 12:29PM

Interesting debate in the non reader thread about who will fight for tyrion, got me thinking, with one son a kings guard who can never marry and another an imp, why didn't tywin remarry and have other children?

turnikett1 · 15-05-2014 12:32PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

Interesting debate in the non reader thread about who will fight for tyrion, got me thinking, with one son a kings guard who can never marry and another an imp, why didn't tywin remarry and have other children?

Never thought about that! Maybe he's impotent? :P

15-05-2014 12:36PM

Oranage2 wrote: »

Interesting debate in the non reader thread about who will fight for tyrion, got me thinking, with one son a kings guard who can never marry and another an imp, why didn't tywin remarry and have other children?

It's one issue iv always had with him it makes no sense that he spends his life obsessing about his legacy but his lack of a trained in heir dosent seem to bother him we saw him talking to tommen in the show but other than that they seem to be the only house by traning an heir

Kunkka · 15-05-2014 12:37PM

turnikett1 wrote: »

Never thought about that! Maybe he's impotent? :P

He was totally in love with his first wife and lost interest in women after her death from what I remember reading... that & I think he felt he could change Jaime's mind at some stage anyway as has been hinted in the show from season 1. I can't remember if there was any references in the books early on...

Mousewar · 15-05-2014 12:41PM

He's no willy.

Witcher · 15-05-2014 12:44PM

He probably would have passed Casterly Rock on to Daven.

Gbear · 15-05-2014 12:45PM

Blay wrote: »

He probably would have passed Casterly Rock on to Daven.

Kevan, surely?

Witcher · 15-05-2014 12:47PM

Gbear wrote: »

Kevan, surely?

Nobody to pass it on to, Tywin had arranged for Lancel to get Darry.

He actually has others sons now that I check, only one of them is living though but Daven was made Warden of the West over him so that is telling.

I don't think Tywin would give the Rock to someone young and untested like that, I'd still go with Daven.

Michael D Not Higgins · 15-05-2014 12:56PM

Kunkka wrote: »

I think he felt he could change Jaime's mind at some stage anyway as has been hinted in the show from season 1.

The dismissal of Barristan Selmy was the first such occurance of a member of the Kingsguard leaving. I don't know how Tywin expected to change that.

Paddy Cow · 15-05-2014 01:44PM

Blay wrote: »

He probably would have passed Casterly Rock on to Daven.

Refresh my memory please. Who is Daven? I have no idea who he is!

Michael D Not Higgins · 15-05-2014 01:46PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Refresh my memory please. Who is Daven? I have no idea who he is!

He is a cousin of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion.

Paddy Cow · 15-05-2014 01:48PM

June Itchy Testosterone wrote: »

It's one issue iv always had with him it makes no sense that he spends his life obsessing about his legacy but his lack of a trained in heir dosent seem to bother him we saw him talking to tommen in the show but other than that they seem to be the only house by traning an heir

This is a good point. He was obsessed with carrying on the family legacy but he knew that Jamie was Kingsguard, any children Cersei had would carry on the Baratheon name and he made it clear that he would never let Tyrion have Casterly Rock.

I know he loved his wife but considering he told Tyrion to basically rape Sansa if that was what it took for Tyrion to produce a male heir, I don't think Tywin would be that sentimental when it came to producing an heir of his own.

To be honest, it wasn't something I'd thought of before but now it is really bugging me!

Paddy Cow · 15-05-2014 01:51PM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

He is a cousin of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion.

Thanks. Is he Kevan's son? Did he get much of a mention in the books? Did Tywin hold him in high regard? Sorry for all the questions but I honestly can't remember him at all.

The relative that stands out for me was Tywin's sister, who told him that Jamie wasn't his son, Tyrion was and Tywin wasn't impressed with her, even though she was bang on the money.

Michael D Not Higgins · 15-05-2014 02:10PM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Thanks. Is he Kevan's son? Did he get much of a mention in the books? Did Tywin hold him in high regard? Sorry for all the questions but I honestly can't remember him at all.

The relative that stands out for me was Tywin's sister, who told him that Jamie wasn't his son, Tyrion was and Tywin wasn't impressed with her, even though she was bang on the money.

Kevan is Tywin's brother, but Tywin married his cousin who is also a Lannister. Daven is her brother's son. Technically, he is both 1st and 2nd cousins with Tywin's children. I'm just getting this from the Lannister family tree, I don't remember much of Daven myself.

PopePalpatine · 15-05-2014 02:51PM

I was thinking Tywin thought it was impractical to take a second wife after his first's passing, given that at this point in time he has well outdone the average life expectancy of Westeros.

Season 4 Episode 6 "The Laws of Gods and Men": *HAVE* read the books

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Season 4 Episode 6 "The Laws of Gods and Men": HAVE read the books