Still Waters No Longer Running, Derp.

Corkfeen · 25-04-2014 2:56pm

MaxWig wrote: »

Quote:
Attack the opinions that you don't like - not those who hold them!

OK - you seem to have a firm grasp of how best a mature society should operate

So we shouldn't call racists racist? What sort of society is it when we can't call bigoted people 'bigoted'? John Waters has said some atrocious things about gay people,he say's they are plotting to undermine society by allowing gay marriage. So, I will happily call racist people 'racists' and I don't draw the line when it's a columnist....

MaxWig · 25-04-2014 3:00pm

Corkfeen wrote: »

So we shouldn't call racists racist? What sort of society is it when we can't call bigoted people 'bigoted'? John Waters has said some atrocious things about gay people,he say's they are plotting to undermine society by allowing gay marriage. So, I will happily call racist people 'racists' and I don't draw the line when it's a columnist....

I have no problem with people being challenged on their beliefs. Once it's done in a manner that is civilised.

But if it is true, and I suspect it is, that people are roaring at Waters on the street, then I see no justification for it.

Piliger · 25-04-2014 3:06pm

MaxWig wrote: »

I have no problem with people being challenged on their beliefs. Once it's done in a manner that is civilised.

But if it is true, and I suspect it is, that people are roaring at Waters on the street, then I see no justification for it.

I think it is the essence of being civilised to confront this kind of offensive bigotry and hate mongering on the street and anywhere he goes. It shows people are willing to stand up for what we, the Irish people, believe in and that those people will not tolerate it. Well done to them.

MaxWig · 25-04-2014 3:13pm

Piliger wrote: »

I think it is the essence of being civilised to confront this kind of offensive bigotry and hate mongering on the street and anywhere he goes. It shows people are willing to stand up for what we, the Irish people, believe in and that those people will not tolerate it. Well done to them.

I hate the hate-mongerers - and I shout abuse at them any chance I get!!
The filthy scum!!!

Anything strike you when you read that?

No?

I just don't know what's going on with the yoof these days!

Doctor DooM · 25-04-2014 3:33pm

MaxWig wrote: »

I hate the hate-mongerers - and I shout abuse at them any chance I get!!
The filthy scum!!!

Anything strike you when you read that?

No?

I just don't know what's going on with the yoof these days!

When I was abroad not too long ago, I was in a town that had a large military base from another, much larger country.

This country would not be known for its positive attitude towards the middle east.

Myself and my friend came across two people from the larger country literally kicking and cursing a darker skinned person on the ground.

OPPOSING them, not abusing them, we let out a loud roar and they ran off.

MaxWig · 25-04-2014 3:37pm

Doctor DooM wrote: »

When I was abroad not too long ago, I was in a town that had a large military base from another, much larger country.

This country would not be known for its positive attitude towards the middle east.

Myself and my friend came across two people from the larger country literally kicking and cursing a darker skinned person on the ground.

OPPOSING them, not abusing them, we let out a loud roar and they ran off.

So you prevented a crime.

Fair play.

oscarBravo · 25-04-2014 4:04pm

MaxWig wrote: »

I don't consider Waters to a bigot any more than I consider the average Catholic priest to be bigoted.

I think I can see the chink in your logic.

MaxWig · 25-04-2014 4:06pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think I can see the chink in your logic.

Maybe you do.

I doubt it though

Piliger · 25-04-2014 4:36pm

MaxWig wrote: »

I hate the hate-mongerers - and I shout abuse at them any chance I get!!
The filthy scum!!!

Anything strike you when you read that?

Yes. You are a very confused person.

recedite · 25-04-2014 4:59pm

MaxWig wrote: »

I hate the hate-mongerers - and I shout abuse at them any chance I get!!
The filthy scum!!!

Anything strike you when you read that?

No?

"You don't have to be tolerant of intolerance".

Shouting at someone in the street lets them know that you are opposed to them. So if you single someone out to shout at them because of their skin colour, or their religion, or sexual orientation, then you are a bigot.

If you single someone out to shout at them because of their (publicly expressed) bigoted views, then you are opposed to bigotry. And you are also a bit of a loud mouth.

Simples.

Doctor DooM · 25-04-2014 5:19pm

MaxWig wrote: »

So you prevented a crime.

Fair play.

I didn't do it to prevent a crime, as you well know.

Nodin · 25-04-2014 7:36pm

MaxWig wrote: »

Ranting about Waters being a "(insert insult here)" is all well and good. Those who are genuinely familar with his work over the past 20 years however will know that he is not a bigot, or a lunatic, or a whatever-you're-having-yourself.

You're sure on that now? because I'd lay odds if you read through this thread you'll see plenty from St John the Martyered that show you to be very wrong indeed.

MaxWig wrote: »

Never experienced him as bigoted. He did speak about double-standards etc., but
never once disparaged women, or gay people.

Now you might want to prepare yourself for a shock, but the fact is that it not happening while you were there doesn't mean it didn't happen.

MaxWig wrote: »

interviewed him for a college thesis. He didn't disparage anyone. Homosexuality didn't come into it.

His views about homosexuality are unpalatable to many people. Myself included. But the idea that a society can make progress by shutting down conversation on these points is counter-intuitive - to me in any case.

So you are aware of his views?

Hotblack Desiato · 25-04-2014 7:48pm

MaxWig wrote: »

The most worrying thing about all this though, is that the debate has given a platform to the genuinely thick

The problem is that we are never 'in the right' if we are simply insulting someone.

You don't say. Irony, much?

The problem with giving a voice to the philistine

Philistines, really? Do people qualify for that label by having a less priviliged upbringing and education (privilege in both goes hand in hand) than your good self, or is disagreeing with you sufficient?

Attack the opinions that you don't like - not those who hold them!

Even those who you regard as 'genuinely thick' or 'philistines' ?

MaxWig wrote: »

The 'playing house' comment was contemptible - and displayed a lack of understanding. But the point behind the comment is what should be challenged.

The point behind that 'playing house' comment is that the person making it is a bigot. He does not regard a homosexual couple as deserving of respect or equal rights.

tawnyowl · 25-04-2014 8:23pm

Nodin wrote: »

They just left the rope there. What hes doing with it and that wood is his own business.

Whats interesting is that 'John Waters the columnist' is not an act, in the way that - for example - Bill O'Reilly the Fox TV Host (by all accounts) largely is. This makes more amusing the remarks from the 1st part of the interview, where he was disappointed that no one stood up and said "he's not that guy". Its now entirely evident he is, and has very little self awareness.

Agreed - I've long thought that Waters is a case of "what you see is what you get", as opposed to Kevin Myers, who sometimes trolls for the sake of trolling. (Not that I like Myers either.)

Turtwig · 02-05-2014 1:22am

While I agree that Waters' views are often digusting. I do also agree that abuse is getting shouted at people all those easily these days. John Waters may have written some horrible things but that doesn't mean that everywhere he goes he should be publicly derided. More worrying is the treatment of councillors and politicians outside of their work. Apparently, because of the job they're doing that makes them open to abuse in their private lives. A very precedent to be setting. Worse still, is the call by some lobby groups for governments to legislate against this stuff. Education is the key, legislate and we'll likely f**k things up even more.

So, yeah that Waters fella, carry on.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-05-2014 8:54am

I keep reading the title of this thread as "Stll waters no longer running, derp."

iwantmydinner · 02-05-2014 11:02am

Turtwig wrote: »

John Waters may have written some horrible things but that doesn't mean that everywhere he goes he should be publicly derided.

It does, though.

He knew what he was writing.

He knew the controversy it would stir up.

If you often write horrible things, expect to get called out on it. Often.

VinLieger · 02-05-2014 11:14am

If you write one horrible thing thats fine theres no reason for people to shout at you in the street. But if you write article upon article based on logical fallacies, out and out lies and just plain bigotry then i think people have a right to be angry and if that anger leads to shouting abuse I really find it hard to condemn them

MaxWig · 02-05-2014 11:17am

VinLieger wrote: »

If you write one horrible thing thats fine theres no reason for people to shout at you in the street. But if you write article upon article based on logical fallacies, out and out lies and just plain bigotry then i think people have a right to be angry and if that anger leads to shouting abuse I really find it hard to condemn them

Just shouting though right, not throwing things?

What if he wrote another articles, after they'd policed him with loud street abuse? I guess throwing an open carton of milk at that stage would be ok?

And then, if he kept writing them........pitchforks!

iwantmydinner · 02-05-2014 11:23am

MaxWig wrote: »

Just shouting though right, not throwing things?

What if he wrote another articles, after they'd policed him with loud street abuse? I guess throwing an open carton of milk at that stage would be ok?

And then, if he kept writing them........pitchforks!

Yeah, that's not a huge illogical leap from saying he should expect to be called out on his nastiness. At all.

VinLieger · 02-05-2014 11:23am

MaxWig wrote: »

Just shouting though right, not throwing things?

What if he wrote another articles, after they'd policed him with loud street abuse? I guess throwing an open carton of milk at that stage would be ok?

And then, if he kept writing them........pitchforks!

Look its a difficult one, i'm completely against censorship in any form and nobody should be physically assaulted for their views or what they write but at the same time if they are continuing to insult and basically call people lesser humans and say they don't have basic human rights I can understand where the anger comes from.

MaxWig · 02-05-2014 11:24am

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Yeah, that's not a huge illogical leap from saying he should expect to be called out on his nastiness. At all.

Being 'called out' and having abuse shouted at you on the street are two quite different things.

iwantmydinner · 02-05-2014 11:30am

MaxWig wrote: »

Being 'called out' and having abuse shouted at you on the street are two quite different things.

I'm not sure how you, or he, expects people to react to bare-faced bigotry, disseminated on several national platforms?

MaxWig · 02-05-2014 11:30am

VinLieger wrote: »

Look its a difficult one, i'm completely against censorship in any form and nobody should be physically assaulted for their views or what they write but at the same time if they are continuing to insult and basically call people lesser humans and say they don't have basic human rights I can understand where the anger comes from.

I can absolutely understand the anger of gay individuals and couples in terms of this debate.

Waters however is a commentator. And the idea that people should be publicly abused for their views is not ok.

MaxWig · 02-05-2014 11:33am

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I'm not sure how you, or he, expects people to react to bare-faced bigotry, disseminated on several national platforms?

Challenge it for what it is.

'Call it out' by writing letters to the editor of those platforms.

Campaign for the rights of those you feel are being poorly treated.

Stand with those you feel are being oppressed

Vote according to your morals and beliefs.

Or, I guess you can go outside your house and shout at passers-by.

VinLieger · 02-05-2014 11:34am

MaxWig wrote: »

I can absolutely understand the anger of gay individuals and couples in terms of this debate.

Waters however is a commentator. And the idea that people should be publicly abused for their views is not ok.

When he starts lying about facts to back up his views he goes beyond being a commenter and his association with the Iona Institue a pro catholic value lobby group that uses very questioinable tactics to force its views on others also brings the commentator designation into a grey area

iwantmydinner · 02-05-2014 11:36am

MaxWig wrote: »

Challenge it for what it is.

'Call it out' by writing letters to the editor of those platforms.

Campaign for the rights of those you feel are being poorly treated.

Stand with those you feel are being oppressed

Vote according to your morals and beliefs.

Or, I guess you can go outside your house and shout at passers-by.

Oh cool, thanks for the tips.

MaxWig · 02-05-2014 11:38am

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Oh cool, thanks for the tips.

NP

A civilised democracy can be a tricky concept

old hippy · 02-05-2014 12:10pm

MaxWig wrote: »

NP

A civilised democracy can be a tricky concept

Something Mr Waters may wish to keep in mind.

B0jangles · 02-05-2014 12:37pm

Mr. Waters had (for many years) a nationwide platform from which to express his views; his column in the Irish Times gave him a hugely increased ability to let the world know how he felt about every issue under the sun - the vast vast majority of those who disagree with him have no such platform, thus the average person in the street has no real way of expressing their disagreement with Mr. Waters except by telling him to his face.

As far as I can remember, he mentioned a total of 2 instances - one where a guy on a bike called him a "f*cking homophobe", and a "waddling" woman with a pram told him he should be ashamed of himself - not pleasant I'm sure, but hardly evidence of a sustained campaign of street harassment is it? Given John's tendency towards exaggeration I'm surprised he managed to claim only two events. Remember, this is the man who compared himself to Vaclav Havel after his harrowing unpaid parking-ticket experiences.

Also I think it is well worth remembering what Fergus Finlay had to say about his personal experience of being verbally attacked by John Waters:

A few minutes before the debate ended, John Waters suddenly turned on me, and launched into a tirade about my motives, and those of the organisation I work for, in being involved in the campaign at all. Browne eventually interrupted him, and told him that he had directly impugned the integrity of a decent and respectable organisation, and that I had to have a right of reply.

Taken aback by the ferocity of Waters’ verbal assault, I stumbled through a couple of sentences, and the programme came to an end. When the cameras had stopped, Browne remonstrated with Waters. “You simply can’t say that sort of thing, John,” he said. Waters grinned, and replied that it was just the give and take of a robust debate!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/fergus-finlay/we-cant-let-fear-get-in-the-way-of-backing-same-sex-marriage-258279.html

tl/dr Waters is well able to dish it out but gets seriously butthurt if anyone dares to respond in kind.

Still Waters No Longer Running, Derp.

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