Nigel Farage MEP

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 18-01-2014 12:46PM

McDave wrote: »

Who really cares what kind of situation you think you find yourself in?

I'm afraid, you're just talking gibberish at this state. Because, of course, the point relates to the situation you described.

If you find you can't argue a point coherently, it's simply time for you to consider a change of mind.

McDave · 18-01-2014 12:54PM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm afraid, you're just talking gibberish at this state. Because, of course, the point relates to the situation you described.

If you find you can't argue a point coherently, it's simply time for you to consider a change of mind.

Yet again, you have little or nothing constructive to say. Your participation in this thread seems nothing more than ad hominem dissembling. So I take it your lack of precision means you're conceding on the substance.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 18-01-2014 01:01PM

McDave wrote: »

Yet again, you have little or nothing constructive to say. Your participation in this thread seems nothing more than ad hominem dissembling. So I take it your lack of precision means you're conceding on the substance.

Suddenly, I appreciate what Joyce meant when he used the phrase "the cracked looking-glass of a servant".

I completely agree with your point in post 387, when you say that the EU was incapable of agreeing robust rules for adopting the euro. My point remains that if, as you say, they lacked the capacity to do it, they shouldn't have done it at all.

But, of course, the EU decision making structures were too weak to alter course. They just had to plow ahead, and crash on the rocks.

McDave · 18-01-2014 01:35PM

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Suddenly, I appreciate what Joyce meant when he used the phrase "the cracked looking-glass of a servant".

I completely agree with your point in post 387, when you say that the EU was incapable of agreeing robust rules for adopting the euro. My point remains that if, as you say, they lacked the capacity to do it, they shouldn't have done it at all.

But, of course, the EU decision making structures were too weak to alter course. They just had to plow ahead, and crash on the rocks.

I can see from your misrepresentation of what I said in post 387 that you're 'incapable' of honest discussion.

Suffice it to say (and I say this primarily for the benefit of others who may be reading) that on the single currency the EU was able to do the best it could in a situation where certain members had diverging visions. It's quite simple to discern at this stage an evolving EU structure which enables consenting subsets of the EU to pursue distinct policies where other states dissent. In allowing of the opt-outs for Denmark and the UK, the adoption of the basic principles of the Euro in Maastricht was an early example of this. Lisbon has developed this 'subset' policy technique further.

I would see the establishment of the Euro as the seizing of a unique opportunity that may not have come around again in our lifetimes. I'd hazard that in the coming years, we will see treaty and regulatory steps to put the Euro on a sounder footing, possibly within the EU system itself, or possibly in a separate EZ arrangement. The Euro has been tested in the most extreme situations, and it's members are evolving in response. Learning on the job as it were, and discovering what the job involves in practice. Which should enable the political actors and electorates to understand better what's going on and consent to necessary reasonable solutions.

It may seem ugly, but it's the way the EU seems to work. And if the Euro is anything to go by, the EU is still more than capable of identifying strategic goals and implementing them in practice. Which is what happening despite the turmoil.

SeanW · 18-01-2014 07:46PM

McDave wrote: »

Interest rates were not in fact low when those economies were overheating. They were in fact 3.5-4% percent.

Historically, they were quite low for peripheral economies. And with good reason, especially in the case of Greece! (Greek/drachma era interest rates were generally 3 - 5 times higher than 3.5-4%. Link.

On the positive side, it is membership of the Euro which has demonstrated the deficiencies of those economies and societies for all to see while also giving them both the opportunity and the template to correct their problems.

I had to read that twice to make sure I understood correctly. You are saying that the boom and catastrophic collapse of the peripheral economies was a good thing? Perhaps you should tell that to the broken working men of Ireland who had thought their ship had come in with the construction boom? Or the people in Greece who had to leave their children at the doorsteps of churches? Or beg Golden Dawn for food?

At best it seems to be a case of "on the road to our single Euro country dream ... just don't get your shoes dirty while you step over the bodies."

It's kind of staggering how the Euro is portrayed as a problem without any consideration of the solution it aspires to be.

It's portrayed as a problem because any rational analysis paints it very firmly as the culprit. To say otherwise means disregarding BOTH Keynesian and Austrian economics, BOTH of which are absolutely clear that have an interest rate too low for the prevailing conditions can only ever lead to catastrophe.

It also means stating that the founder of Rothschild dynasty, didn't know anything about currency and banking when he said:

Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild wrote:

Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws

So yes, the Euro is a great idea, totally blameless for the ruin of the perhiperhal economies of Europe - if you think that both Keynesian and Austrian economics are dead wrong and that the Rothschilds were a bunch of clueless gob****es.
Which is quite astounding.

Boroso · 19-01-2014 01:36PM

I see a YOUGOV poll has put UKIP at 26% for the upcoming elections. Full tabs are here

The Opinium poll in the Guardian in December found that just 26% of British voters regard the EU as, overall, a "good thing" compared with 42% who say it is a "bad thing".

McDave · 19-01-2014 08:45PM

SeanW wrote: »

Historically, they were quite low for peripheral economies. And with good reason, especially in the case of Greece! (Greek/drachma era interest rates were generally 3 - 5 times higher than 3.5-4%. Link

... which would clearly enough demonstrate why Greece signed up to the Euro in the first place. The fact that they got nowhere near the Maastricht criteria under their own steam was no reason for the ECB to apply interest rates in excess of its mandate when Greece was caught with its economic pants on fire.

McDave · 19-01-2014 08:52PM

SeanW wrote: »

I had to read that twice to make sure I understood correctly. You are saying that the boom and catastrophic collapse of the peripheral economies was a good thing? Perhaps you should tell that to the broken working men of Ireland who had thought their ship had come in with the construction boom? Or the people in Greece who had to leave their children at the doorsteps of churches? Or beg Golden Dawn for food?

Looks like you might benefit from reading what I wrote yet again. This time more carefully. Because I didn't write the flip remarks you yourself composed [BTW, feel free to demonstrate accurately what I said by referring to quoted statements. I think you'll find you won't be able to].

As for 'broken working men' or begging for food from Golden Dawn (:pac:), you forgot to mention you were holding a baby when you were whacking that stuff out on your keyboard!

McDave · 19-01-2014 08:57PM

SeanW wrote: »

It's portrayed as a problem because any rational analysis paints it very firmly as the culprit. To say otherwise means disregarding BOTH Keynesian and Austrian economics, BOTH of which are absolutely clear that have an interest rate too low for the prevailing conditions can only ever lead to catastrophe

It also means stating that the founder of Rothschild dynasty, didn't know anything about currency and banking when he said:

So yes, the Euro is a great idea, totally blameless for the ruin of the perhiperhal economies of Europe - if you think that both Keynesian and Austrian economics are dead wrong and that the Rothschilds were a bunch of clueless gob****es.
Which is quite astounding.

There is no catastrophe in the Eurozone per se. There may be crises or localised catastrophes in Greece, and even Portugal and Spain. But in reality, Greece has been a basket case for decades. You'll actually find the roots of 'catastrophe' domestically in corruption and lack of proper governance.

SeanW · 21-01-2014 04:31PM

McDave wrote: »

... which would clearly enough demonstrate why Greece signed up to the Euro in the first place.

Greece never should have been allowed to join the Euro. The idea of Greece (and for that matter Ireland) sharing a currency with Germany is only marginally less bizarre than that of a currency union between Uzbekistan and Chile.

its mandate when Greece was caught with its economic pants on fire.

The Greek government had been fudging the figures and they were only "caught with their economic pants on fire" after the whole thing blew up in their faces. The time to be raising interest rates was in the years previously, it would also have tamped down our housing bubble.

McDave wrote: »

Looks like you might benefit from reading what I wrote yet again. ... [BTW, feel free to demonstrate accurately what I said by referring to quoted statements. I think you'll find you won't be able to].

I read your statement very carefully. You said:

McDave wrote: »

On the positive side, it is membership of the Euro which has demonstrated the deficiencies of those economies and societies.

That seems very clear to me, not only an admission that Euro membership caused the collapse of the peripheral economies, by having "demonstrated the deficiencies" but claimed that this is a good thing?

As for 'broken working men' or begging for food from Golden Dawn (:pac:), you forgot to mention you were holding a baby when you were whacking that stuff out on your keyboard!

Excuse my bluntness here but what the hell are you on about?

McDave wrote: »

But in reality, Greece has been a basket case for decades. You'll actually find the roots of 'catastrophe' domestically in corruption and lack of proper governance.

It's certainly true that national legislators have at times been worse than useless (look at the Fianna Fail years here) but you will find that the peripheral economies were functioning, albeit not always in top form, in the '90s and before. The "Celtic Tiger" started in the 1990s and was - at that time - built on solid fundamentals. Greece may have been a shambles with corruption and people not paying their taxes and hereditary pensions and suchlike nonsense but it did function and could have continued to do so within the constraints of interest rates determined by those prevailing conditions.

oscarBravo · 21-01-2014 04:59PM

SeanW wrote: »

The "Celtic Tiger" started in the 1990s and was - at that time - built on solid fundamentals.

Ironically, those "solid fundamentals" were the Maastricht convergence criteria, which you're simultaneously blaming as the cause of Ireland's economic woes.

dlouth15 · 21-01-2014 05:07PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ironically, those "solid fundamentals" were the Maastricht convergence criteria, which you're simultaneously blaming as the cause of Ireland's economic woes.

May have been a contributing factor but possibly not the overriding one. A combination of low corporation tax and membership of a large free trade area would be more important. A revaluation of the punt within the ERM in the early nineties may also have helped.

View · 21-01-2014 06:08PM

dlouth15 wrote: »

May have been a contributing factor but possibly not the overriding one. A combination of low corporation tax and membership of a large free trade area would be more important.

We had both those in the 70s and 80s and not only did they not help, we had a recession that was probably worse than our current one.

We also had our Central Bank interest rates at levels most people today could barely imagine (10-15% if I recall). So much for the fallacy of reducing all economic activity to the setting of the interest rate.

Such rates would help our economic recovery a lot, were we to have them today, wouldn't it?

dlouth15 wrote: »

A revaluation of the punt within the ERM in the early nineties may also have helped.

That isn't what the data shows - it had marginal effect on our exports. Indeed the primary reason we had one was "the markets" decided this for us and it was largely a case that as the UK needed one, we had to follow suit - which is about as much "independence" we had in economic terms in reality as opposed to those nice books on theory which start with "Assume your economy is the US economy and not a small economy which no one is forced to trade with if they they so choose".

SeanW · 21-01-2014 06:29PM

View wrote: »

Such rates would help our economic recovery a lot, were we to have them today, wouldn't it?

No, but under Keynesian economics, rates approaching those figures would have helped cool down our overheating economy in the early-mid 2000s and prevented the housing bubble. Thus, had Keynesian economics been implemented properly, (if there is such a thing) there would have been no housing bubble, because the Central Bank would have recognised the overheating and used its monetary levers to basically hit the brakes.

Austrian economics also has a dim view of too-low interest rates, but takes a more radical view - that interest rates should be dictated by the market without the assistance of a Central Bank. This would prevent most bubbles or limit their expansion, because the consumption of capital and loans for bubble-related activities would drive up interest rates as the supply of loanable funds dwindled.

I will concede that the monetary aspect is just one - Keynesian economics also considers the fiscal side to be important, and its a matter of absolute historical record that the counter-cyclical policies we needed did not come from our national government either.

dlouth15 · 21-01-2014 07:17PM

View wrote: »

So much for the fallacy of reducing all economic activity to the setting of the interest rate.

I think what you need to do is ask yourself why you need to misrepresent the positions of others in making your argument. Do you not see that it weakens whatever point you might have been trying to make?

shanered · 29-03-2014 03:54PM

Going to sit down and watch this now!

23-04-2014 12:46PM

I see Farange is in the news again over the UKIP having a poster warning about Europeans being after British jobs while he is employing his German wife as his PA. The man is a joke.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0423/610426-farage-job-row/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27116110

ewan whose army · 23-04-2014 12:50PM

riffmongous wrote: »

I see Farange is in the news again over the UKIP having a poster warning about Europeans being after British jobs while he is employing his German wife as his PA. The man is a joke.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0423/610426-farage-job-row/

I can't stand him, he makes me ashamed to be English....

His posters are vile and exist only to stir up the little englanders, plus they are bankrolled by a millionaire, once again a party at the tit of Big Business.

People keep on going on about how "passionate" he is, usually referencing that speech he did to Van Rumpuy "Who are You?"

I watched that show on C4 about him, and I don't get what the fuss about him is, he is just a Thatcherite tory something that myself a young, LGBT leftie Brit can't stand.

The Corinthian · 23-04-2014 06:19PM

riffmongous wrote: »

I see Farange is in the news again over the UKIP having a poster warning about Europeans being after British jobs while he is employing his German wife as his PA.

Reminds me of Umberto Bossi of the Northern League in Italy; vociferously anti-southerners and married to a Sicilian. You have to wonder about the dynamic is some relationships.

Giving his German wife a job is hilarious my most standards, considering his politics.

The man is a joke.

Who is the greater fool; the fool or the fool who follows him?

jank · 24-04-2014 01:23AM

What ever your views on him he is shaking up the established parties in the UK. Remains to be seen if he is flavour of the month or if this is a more long term shift.

Nodin · 24-04-2014 05:17AM

jank wrote: »

What ever your views on him he is shaking up the established parties in the UK. Remains to be seen if he is flavour of the month or if this is a more long term shift.

His effect seems primarily limited to the Tories.

jank · 24-04-2014 06:41AM

That is a bit of a myth that only the Torries should be worried about what is happening regards UKIP. The media have been trying to paint UKIP in such a manner for years and to be honest plays right into the hands of Farage when he talks about 'the elites'. There is deep dissatisfaction in the UK and around the western world with the established status quo, this is just a culmination of this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10713408/Labour-admits-it-is-concerned-about-Ukip.html

Figures in the party are concerned that Ukip could attract traditional working class Labour voters in the north of England.

Recent studies have suggested that Ukip has more working class support than any of the other three parties.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/467918/Labour-losing-working-class-low-educated-voters-to-Ukip-warns-panel-of-political-gurus

Dr Goodwin, co-author of 'Revolt on the Right: Explaining Support for the Radical Right in Britain' at a Chatham House debate in London this afternoon, said: "Nigel Farage and Ukip are tapping into who you might crudely term the 'left behind'; working class, low-educated, financially struggling; mainly white old men who look out at Britain and look at a country which, to be honest, they neither recognise nor want to be a part of

ewan whose army · 24-04-2014 09:38AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Reminds me of Umberto Bossi of the Northern League in Italy; vociferously anti-southerners and married to a Sicilian. You have to wonder about the dynamic is some relationships.

Giving his German wife a job is hilarious my most standards, considering his politics.

Who is the greater fool; the fool or the fool who follows him?

UKIPPERS are among the oldest support base for a UK party, hardly any young people (who are actually very "European" minded, like me. I happy Identify as an EU citizen like a lot of people my age do) . They are stuck in the "Good old days" and don't realise the world has moved on since then.

I am waiting for them to announce and alliance with the like of Paisley up North the UKIP and DUP are like two peas in a pod ideology wise. Both anti-LGBT, pro "Christian values" etc. (Why else did the PM do a speech on how Britain is a "Christian country" to get the CofE and I guess the Catholics to support them over UKIP)

However they do get some support from the poorer working class areas, Labour are seen as abandoning them and somewhat understandably they see these EU migrants getting jobs in their town that they can't get so they become bitter and support UKIP.

Another reason for their support is that they are not Con/Lib/Lab similar to why people in scotland vote for the SNP. They are good at getting noticed, something the Greens and the like don't do (As much as I like the Greens they suck at campaigning, I was in their youth wing briefly, I left when they cuddled up to RESPECT a party that I despise)

Nodin · 24-04-2014 11:12PM

jank wrote: »

That is a bit of a myth that only the Torries should be worried about what is happening regards UKIP. The media have been trying to paint UKIP in such a manner for years and to be honest plays right into the hands of Farage when he talks about 'the elites'. There is deep dissatisfaction in the UK and around the western world with the established status quo, this is just a culmination of this.

That remains to be seen. Thus far the depiction of them doesn't seem to be far off in many regards.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/24/ukip-member-broadcast-suspended-racist-tweets

ewan whose army · 26-04-2014 09:30AM

Nodin wrote: »

That remains to be seen. Thus far the depiction of them doesn't seem to be far off in many regards.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/24/ukip-member-broadcast-suspended-racist-tweets

Yup those tweets were vial.

However if you read up on it, I wonder if his views are down to being a White Zimbabwean when Mugabe did his "Land Reforms" , I have a friend who suffered a witch hunt just because she was born to British ex-pats in what was Rhodesia. I wonder if that has made him very sceptical of anything that isn't British and in his comfort zone.

I am not excusing him, but I think he may have issues judging by his tweets.

Nodin · 26-04-2014 05:38PM

ewan whose army wrote: »

Yup those tweets were vial.

However if you read up on it, I wonder if his views are down to being a White Zimbabwean when Mugabe did his "Land Reforms" , I have a friend who suffered a witch hunt just because she was born to British ex-pats in what was Rhodesia. I wonder if that has made him very sceptical of anything that isn't British and in his comfort zone.

I am not excusing him, but I think he may have issues judging by his tweets.

His comfort zone is so small he would be made uncomfortable by it.

"well ed milliband is polish and not british so how'd he know whats good for Britain".
(One can speculate as to whether that's actually do with him being of polish descent, or the fact he's Jewish.)

"Most Nigerians are generally bad people I grew up in Africa and dare anyone to prove me wrong."

“I was born and grew up in Africa. Please leave Africa for the Africans. Let them kill themselves off.”

And the final nail in the coffin........
"Enoch Powell was right!”

Nodin · 26-04-2014 06:10PM

They truly are the gift that keeps on giving.

"Candidates have taken to social media sites to rail against Islam as "organised crime under religious camouflage" while likening the religion to Nazism, and suggesting that the murder of the black teenager Stephen Lawrence has received a disproportionate level of attention.
One candidate for election in Enfield, William Henwood, responded to a recent speech by Henry, in which he suggested there was a poor representation of black and ethnic minorities on British television, by tweeting: "He should emigrate to a black country. He does not have to live with whites."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/27/ukip-farage-racism-lenny-henry-politics-europe

ewan whose army · 27-04-2014 10:48AM

Nodin wrote: »

His comfort zone is so small he would be made uncomfortable by it.

"well ed milliband is polish and not british so how'd he know whats good for Britain".
(One can speculate as to whether that's actually do with him being of polish descent, or the fact he's Jewish.)

"Most Nigerians are generally bad people I grew up in Africa and dare anyone to prove me wrong."

“I was born and grew up in Africa. Please leave Africa for the Africans. Let them kill themselves off.”

And the final nail in the coffin........
"Enoch Powell was right!”

Exactly, I mean he has issues that he may need help for.

sin_city · 27-04-2014 11:51AM

I guess most people here are pro Europe and so anti Farage...is that a fair statement?

I like him to be honest. He is a very straight talker and is very clear about what he stands for.

All the other parties are typical politicians to me. He stuck his neck out on Syria and gave his opinion while Cameron tried to push the UK into bombing.

If you don't like Nigel Farage, then you probably never will...as for other politicians...they will change their views to suit whatever it is that gets them elected. Some people like that, others don't

The Corinthian · 27-04-2014 12:26PM

sin_city wrote: »

I like him to be honest. He is a very straight talker and is very clear about what he stands for.

Problem I find with straight talkers is that more often than not, they're like that not because they're direct, intelligent and they've thought through what they stand for, but because they're bullshìtters.

Why they're so popular is that they will make simple, often sweeping, statements that are easy to understand or identify with, and when people do, they tend not to question them - that's when things start going a bit pear shaped. Personally, when I hear 'straight talking' I get suspicious, because life is rarely so simple that you can generalize about it with such an approach.

Silvio Berlusconi prides himself on being a straight talker too, btw.

Nigel Farage MEP

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