Nigel Farage MEP

shanered

What are everybodies views on this guy?
I've been watching his videos on youtube and I do have to say I'm very impressed by him.
I know I might be opening a can of worms here by mentioning him as he quite a character but I'd like to here all views on him and them being discussed.

BRAIN FEEDs

impressive is right. very articulate and i like his views.

AlekSmart

Oh dear....plenty of views on the fellow sure enough .....:)

Strange though,I thought it was the Irish who were supposed to have the gift of the gab.....Our native MEP's appear to have had no great desire to stun them forriners with their powers of oratory...:)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64633194

shanered

I was guessing there was going to be some previous disscussion about him! I have to say I like something about him!

bob50

Nigel Farage i admire very much i wish he was in charge here Unlike that yellow bellied kenny who will do anything hes told by Europe:)

meglome

bob50 wrote: »

Nigel Farage i admire very much i wish he was in charge here Unlike that yellow bellied kenny who will do anything hes told by Europe:)

It truly worries me that people here of all places would not see through Farage. Sure he can be entertaining but why not, he says what his supporters want to hear, the truth is irrelevant to him. All that matters is his agenda, getting the UK out of the EU. Anyone who thinks leaving the EU would be in Ireland's interests is very foolish indeed. Kenny on the other hand has to deal with the reality we find ourselves in, between a rock and a hard place.
If he didn't have Muslins to worry about the Irish could be the ones on the receiving end as they have been in the past by people of his ilk.

Predalien

I'm not a huge fan of the man, but he did predict that all of the bail-out countries would need bail-outs well in advance, so he deserves some credit for at least recognising the scale of the problems, which many centrist politicians have neglected to do as they've muddled and dragged out a conclusion to the crisis, and his summary of the failures of the single currency are painfully accurate.

Boskowski

He's one of those Brits living in the past or pandering to those who do.
He will appeal to all those who think the EU is just a vehicle for Germany building the Fourth Reich while finding it totally acceptable if Britain were doing this instead. He is extremely populist and likes himself being perceived as the one who speaks out what the 'common man' thinks.

Think of that what you want but in my opinion the phrase 'what the common man thinks' is usually a metaphor for being pig ignorant. He is a dangerous tool.

McDave

I have no time for Farage. TBH, I don't think he or his party have any role to play in Irish politics. Which is not to say there aren't people here open to being mentally colonised by one of the worst forms of nationalistic English Euroscepticism, and those who promote him.

shanered

I do find your use of words a little dramatic when your refer to people who might agree with Nigel Farage's stance towards the EU as being mentally colonised, I dunno I just find it strange I think as I see what he is at (In a European level anyway from what I've seen) is the complete opposite of colonialisim, as he wants to stop his country becoming part of a federal European state. He argued for Ireland to say no to Lisbon and want countries to have greater control to govern themselves from what I can see.

McDave

shanered wrote: »

I do find your use of words a little dramatic when your refer to people who might agree with Nigel Farage's stance towards the EU as being mentally colonised, I dunno I just find it strange I think as I see what he is at (In a European level anyway from what I've seen) is the complete opposite of colonialisim, as he wants to stop his country becoming part of a federal European state. He argued for Ireland to say no to Lisbon and want countries to have greater control to govern themselves from what I can see.

IMO a federal EU is not on the cards. I don't think there are any realistic fears on this score.

Farage is entitled to make his case to the UK electorate. But AFAIC his direct interventions in Irish politics have to be fundamentally questioned. Remember the UKIP canvassing on Lisbon 2 outside the GPO. And the 'Respect the Ahrish No' stunt in the EP?

Ireland is the only country that I know of which has major readerships of domestic versions of foreign newspapers. It's my view that UK newspapers like the Sunday Times and the Irish Mail stable are quite blatant attempts to colonise Irish minds with blatantly Eurosceptic views.

Farage takes this a step further with his direct appeals to Irish voters on EU matters. And when I see people on Irish boards lionising him, I have to say I'm more than a little bit suspicious. On this score, I don't think the use of the word 'colonise' is even remotely dramatic.

christmas2012

he is viewed as a bit of a nut,but i think hes way better than that conservative shower..

Jorah

Boskowski wrote: »

He's one of those Brits living in the past or pandering to those who do.

Wanting full sovereignty over your own affairs? Get with the times man!

Boskowski wrote: »

He will appeal to all those who think the EU is just a vehicle for Germany building the Fourth Reich while finding it totally acceptable if Britain were doing this instead.

Absolutely. Germany can build their Fourth Reich all they want. The British people do not want to be a part of it however.

Boskowski wrote: »

He is extremely populist

*Popular

Boskowski wrote: »

and likes himself being perceived as the one who speaks out what the 'common man' thinks.

He's not being "perceived" as the one that speaks out what the common man thinks.

He is the one that speaks out what the common thinks.

Boskowski wrote: »

Think of that what you want but in my opinion the phrase 'what the common man thinks' is usually a metaphor for being pig ignorant. He is a dangerous tool.

The common man can barely wrap their heads around their own political system. Let alone the gigantic Babylon-like structure that is the European Union.

What say does the average person have in their own country let alone the bureaucratic nightmare of over 500 million people...

McDave

Jorah wrote: »

Germany can build their Fourth Reich all they want. The British people do not want to be a part of it however.

'Fourth Reich'? Dear, oh, dear.

While you're raising the concerns of the British people you might be a bit more balanced and also raise the concerns of the subjects of an actual empire in history, the British Empire. Peoples who were given no democratic choice in the matter.

As for what the British people democratically want, I doubt many would grudge them their right to stay at arms length from the EU should they so wish. However, the democracies that wish an ever closer union within the EU are entitled to have their preferences respected as well.

bwatson

McDave wrote: »

'Fourth Reich'? Dear, oh, dear.

While you're raising the concerns of the British people you might be a bit more balanced and also raise the concerns of the subjects of an actual empire in history, the British Empire. Peoples who were given no democratic choice in the matter.

What do you mean by this?

Briton 1: I feel we should have a serious discussion about our position within the EU. It is clear a significant percentage of the British population are unhappy with the levels of influence that foreign politicians are having on British affairs.

Briton 2: That is all well and good, however you might want to remember that in the not so distant past we assembled the largest empire in terms of both area and population that humanity has ever seen. We did not afford subjects of the empire any sort of democratic right to determine whether or not a foreign power should have influence over their affairs. It is only right that we now subject ourselves to the same treatment as a form of punishment at the hands of European "neighbours" so as to show how sorry we are for the things we did. Let us continue to be humiliated at the hands of the EU against the will of a great deal of fellow Britons. The other member states - many of them also the constructors of great empires (though not quite as great of course) will love that.

Briton 1: Ok, sure thing. Lets ditch any talk of a referendum. Let us continue to put the will of the British people second to the desires of other Europeans.

Briton 2: Cool bro.

...

That sort of thing? If not, can you please explain any sort of relevance of brining up empire?

Moreover, Britain suffered greatly at the hands of the Third Reich, millions died and the nation was devestated through bombing campaigns. Are you trying to suggest that Brits have no real understanding of what it is like to be faced by an aggressive neighbouring power, simply because we managed to prevail in that conflict?

oscarBravo

bwatson wrote: »

It is only right that we now subject ourselves to the same treatment as a form of punishment at the hands of European "neighbours" so as to show how sorry we are for the things we did.

...because EU membership is exactly the same thing as being a colony of an imperial power. Right.


It would be nice to have a rational conversation with a British euroskeptic, but I'm starting to get the distinct impression that it's physically impossible to do so.

Boskowski

I wouldn't mind if it was about non participation of GB. What I do mind is participation with the sole purpose of making things difficult for everyone else and general bitching about.

The fourth reich line gets tiresome too.

Thankfully the guy doesn't really matter.

McDave

bwatson wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

Briton 1: I feel we should have a serious discussion about our position within the EU. It is clear a significant percentage of the British population are unhappy with the levels of influence that foreign politicians are having on British affairs.

Briton 2: That is all well and good, however you might want to remember that in the not so distant past we assembled the largest empire in terms of both area and population that humanity has ever seen. We did not afford subjects of the empire any sort of democratic right to determine whether or not a foreign power should have influence over their affairs. It is only right that we now subject ourselves to the same treatment as a form of punishment at the hands of European "neighbours" so as to show how sorry we are for the things we did. Let us continue to be humiliated at the hands of the EU against the will of a great deal of fellow Britons. The other member states - many of them also the constructors of great empires (though not quite as great of course) will love that.

Briton 1: Ok, sure thing. Lets ditch any talk of a referendum. Let us continue to put the will of the British people second to the desires of other Europeans.

Briton 2: Cool bro.

...

That sort of thing? If not, can you please explain any sort of relevance of brining up empire?

Moreover, Britain suffered greatly at the hands of the Third Reich, millions died and the nation was devestated through bombing campaigns. Are you trying to suggest that Brits have no real understanding of what it is like to be faced by an aggressive neighbouring power, simply because we managed to prevail in that conflict?

Really bwatson, all you have to do is read the post I was responding to to realise *I* didn't bring up imperialism.

You *do* realise that 'Reich' is the German for empire, don't you? And that 'Fourth Reich' is shorthand for intimating that Germany is 'still basically Nazi', don't you? And that many English people use it because they're so stuck in the past that they just can't let go of their WW2 comfort blanket.

That's the privilege of people who identify with the UK. But when UKIP-types attempt to introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics, don't be surprised about blowback.

McDave

oscarBravo wrote: »

...because EU membership is exactly the same thing as being a colony of an imperial power. Right.


It would be nice to have a rational conversation with a British euroskeptic, but I'm starting to get the distinct impression that it's physically impossible to do so.

I'm afraid it's my own experience that rational discussion with British Eurosceptics on Irish boards is rather pointless. Too many of them are simply agents provocateurs.

IMO, you can judge internet proponents of Farage and UKIP in exactly the same way as you can judge UKIP themselves. Their track record on Ireland is rather pathetic. Some Dubliners would have directly witnessed their pathetic 'canvassing' stunt on O'Connell Street during Lisbon 2. Not to mention the truly risible 'Respect the Ahrish No' stunt in the EP where they dressed up leprechaun-style in green T-shirts. Like they give a damn about Ireland. :pac:

bwatson

McDave wrote: »

Really bwatson, all you have to do is read the post I was responding to to realise *I* didn't bring up imperialism.

You *do* realise that 'Reich' is the German for empire, don't you? And that 'Fourth Reich' is shorthand for intimating that Germany is 'still basically Nazi', don't you? And that many English people use it because they're so stuck in the past that they just can't let go of their WW2 comfort blanket.

That's the privilege of people who identify with the UK. But when UKIP-types attempt to introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics, don't be surprised about blowback.

Umm, there were, surprisingly, two defined Reichs before the third Reich. So actually to use the word is not actually intimating that the Germans are still Nazis in any way. You realize the word Reich is in no way limited to describing the aspirations of Hitler and the Nazis? You appear very much stuck in your but-remember-what-de-brits-did-to-us-in-de-past comfort blanket.

Secondly, who has tried to "introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics" as you referred to it so disdainfully? You have on several occasions reacted with great hostility to people discussing an issue in British politics in a forum specifically created for debating issues of the wider European Union. Your suggestion seems to be that even discussing a political issue that is not categorically and definitevely Irish on an Irish messageboard deserves "blowback". What a backward idiot you are.

Nodin

bwatson wrote: »

Moreover, Britain suffered greatly at the hands of the Third Reich, millions died and the nation was devestated through bombing campaigns. Are you trying to suggest that Brits have no real understanding of what it is like to be faced by an aggressive neighbouring power, simply because we managed to prevail in that conflict?

Nope. 450,000. You seem to be confusing Britain with Poland or Russia.

bwatson

Nodin wrote: »

Nope. 450,000. You seem to be confusing Britain with Poland or Russia.

I seem do I?

My mistake was referring specifically to the Third Reich and not German aggression in the 20th century as a whole which in fact did result in well over a million British deaths.

Still, 450,000 is nothing eh? Sure why dont you just nonchalantly palm it of as if the fact that ONLY 450,000 British people were killed in the Second World War makes my point any less valid.

You also seem to have a habit of liking any post that contains any sort of anti-British sentiment, even if the poster is very much in the wrong with their assertions. See your liking of post 18 in which the poster clearly doesnt realize that the concept of a German Reich extends far further back in history than the emergence of the Nazi party and tried to use his factually incorrect point as a stick to beat the ignorant Brits with.

What me get infracted again for having a different viewpoint to others while a few ardent republicans never recieve infractions for xenophobic, sweeping statements based on ill-informed "knowledge" of "how things work" in the UK

Scofflaw

bwatson wrote: »

What me get infracted again for having a different viewpoint to others while a few ardent republicans never recieve infractions for xenophobic, sweeping statements based on ill-informed "knowledge" of "how things work" in the UK

No, but you do get warned or infracted for being rude to other posters, and for commenting on moderation in non-feedback threads. You'll find that both of those points are covered in the Forum Charter.

Please save complaints of political bias amongst the mods for the channels specifically set up for people to accuse us of it.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Nodin

bwatson wrote: »

I seem do I?

My mistake was referring specifically to the Third Reich and not German aggression in the 20th century as a whole which in fact did result in well over a million British deaths.

Still, 450,000 is nothing eh? Sure why dont you just nonchalantly palm it of as if the fact that ONLY 450,000 British people were killed in the Second World War makes my point any less valid.

"millions" were not killed. If somebody said that none were killed, I'd correct that also.

Its an entirely invalid point.

bwatson wrote: »

See your liking of post 18 in which the poster clearly doesnt realize that the concept of a German Reich extends far further back in history than the emergence of the Nazi party and tried to use his factually incorrect point as a stick to beat the ignorant Brits with..

The fact is that raising the second world war in relation to the EU is an entirely illogical and pointless exercise in xenophobia.

Scofflaw

Nodin wrote: »

"millions" were not killed. If somebody said that none were killed, I'd correct that also.

Its an entirely invalid point.



The fact is that raising the second world war in relation to the EU is an entirely illogical and pointless exercise in xenophobia.

Nor is there anyone anywhere stupid enough to fall for the "there were other Reichs" line. Virtually nobody knows what the first and second Reichs were (Holy Roman Empire and Bismarck's Germany respectively) nor are they commonly referred to by those terms.

"Fourth Reich" is a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany. Please don't try this line in BS any further.

regards,
Scofflaw

bwatson

Scofflaw wrote: »

Nor is there anyone anywhere stupid enough to fall for the "there were other Reichs" line. Virtually nobody knows what the first and second Reichs were (Holy Roman Empire and Bismarck's Germany respectively) nor are they commonly referred to by those terms.

"Fourth Reich" is a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany. Please don't try this line in BS any further.

regards,
Scofflaw

Actually Bismarck's Germany, the rise of Prussia and the revolutions/unifications of Europe in the mid 19th century and beyond are extensively taught and widely understood - they are incredibly important events in the history of our continent which still resonate today.

I very much disagree with your point about the lesser known "Reichs" and find it a someone surprising statement from a moderator. The simple fact is that although many may be ignorant to their existence, there were indeed 2 German Reichs before the emergence of the Nazis which differed substantially in some ways but of course had some similarities.

I think you have it the wrong way round - there are indeed people who are too "stupid" to acknowledge, or fall for as you put it, other Reichs. For that those who are aware of their existence and their relevance are not allowed to bring them into the discussion should they feel it relevant? OK then. Perhaps we should simply never discuss anything, ever? Because there will ALWAYS be some posters who think they know what they are talking about, but actually are incredibly poorly informed on the subject - be it Republicanism, local politics in rural Ireland, or European politics.

I'm not trying to be deliberately stubborn, but the fact is that if lesser know historical examples are brought up, the fact that they are not widely understood doesn't mean in any way they are false, or wrong or anything of the sort.

"Fourth Reich" is only a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany if you don't really know what you are talking about.

McDave

bwatson wrote: »

Umm, there were, surprisingly, two defined Reichs before the third Reich. So actually to use the word is not actually intimating that the Germans are still Nazis in any way. You realize the word Reich is in no way limited to describing the aspirations of Hitler and the Nazis? You appear very much stuck in your but-remember-what-de-brits-did-to-us-in-de-past comfort blanket.

Use your common sense. Most people would have to reach for Wikipedia to discover what the First and Second Reichs were.

Pretty much everyone knows what the Third Reich is. You know. The Reich Hitler et al were involved in.

I think we can all sleep safely in our beds at night in the knowledge that when someone brings up the 'Fourth Reich', they're not invoking the Holy Roman Empire.

McDave

bwatson wrote: »

Secondly, who has tried to "introduce that kind of claptrap into Irish politics" as you referred to it so disdainfully? You have on several occasions reacted with great hostility to people discussing an issue in British politics in a forum specifically created for debating issues of the wider European Union. Your suggestion seems to be that even discussing a political issue that is not categorically and definitevely Irish on an Irish messageboard deserves "blowback". What a backward idiot you are.

I've no problem with the right of people to put their political views across. However, I'm prepared to make my own calls.

While I have every admiration for the way the British stood up against the Germans in WW2 to defend their culture and their way of life, I personally have no time for the petty nationalism and the perpetuation of anti-German prejudice.

Now I wouldn't dream of taking such a strong line on the issue on English soil, or on a British political forum, were I posting on one. But on an Irish board, I'm afraid I'm going to be much more straightforward.

Having gained our independence from the UK, I am personally of the view that Ireland is better off keeping at political arms length from Westminster. IMO it's better by far for us to involve ourselves politically and economically in a much more diversified structure like the EU. I don't think we can meaningfully pursue any kind of autarkic path. I think most Irish people broadly feel this way.

Naturally there is ongoing debate in Ireland about which direction we should take. Cooperation with the EU is the leading one. Parties like Sinn Fein argue for a more independent line. A very small proportion would like to see us have a closer relationship with the UK.

From my own POV, I'm happy to see open discussion. But when I see prejudice and the petty jingoism from British sources attempting to enter the fray here, I'm happy to take them head on. I don't think the style of debate on offer from UKIP and other more reactionary organisations in Britain brings much to the table here, and I'm prepared to call it that way. Whether it's from the likes of Farage, or from the Irish versions of the English press (a particularly sad fact of Irish media life AFAIC).

Scofflaw

bwatson wrote: »

Actually Bismarck's Germany, the rise of Prussia and the revolutions/unifications of Europe in the mid 19th century and beyond are extensively taught and widely understood - they are incredibly important events in the history of our continent which still resonate today.

This is another dishonest sleight of hand - they are widely taught, but they are not widely known as the first and second Reich.

bwatson wrote: »

I very much disagree with your point about the lesser known "Reichs" and find it a someone surprising statement from a moderator. The simple fact is that although many may be ignorant to their existence, there were indeed 2 German Reichs before the emergence of the Nazis which differed substantially in some ways but of course had some similarities.

I think you have it the wrong way round - there are indeed people who are too "stupid" to acknowledge, or fall for as you put it, other Reichs. For that those who are aware of their existence and their relevance are not allowed to bring them into the discussion should they feel it relevant? OK then. Perhaps we should simply never discuss anything, ever? Because there will ALWAYS be some posters who think they know what they are talking about, but actually are incredibly poorly informed on the subject - be it Republicanism, local politics in rural Ireland, or European politics.

I'm not trying to be deliberately stubborn, but the fact is that if lesser know historical examples are brought up, the fact that they are not widely understood doesn't mean in any way they are false, or wrong or anything of the sort.

"Fourth Reich" is only a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany if you don't really know what you are talking about.

Rubbish. And, seriously, stop trying to pull this one, because even a quick Google shows it for the dishonesty it is: https://www.google.ie/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=%22fourth+reich%22&oq=%22fourth+reich%22&gs_l=hp.3..0l10.1292.4619.0.5979.13.12.0.0.0.0.191.1683.1j11.12.0...0.0...1c.H4MoSIyEvko

There's no need for you to attempt to defend the use of "Fourth Reich" in this dishonest way - it has nothing to do with the validity of your point of view - and I will treat as trolling if it continues, because it is blatantly dishonest, and that is not acceptable on the forum.

moderately,
Scofflaw

McDave

bwatson wrote: »

"Fourth Reich" is only a term that specifically means a successor to Nazi Germany if you don't really know what you are talking about.

Modern day Germany is a democracy. The EU is a rules-based group of democratic states broadly acting in tandem through political consent.

I don't see how the term 'Fourth Reich' has any relevance to either, other than being inflammatory and insinuating that Germany's involvement in current European affairs is somehow imperialist and coercive in nature.

It's a pity when the term is brought up, as it was earlier in the thread. But on the other hand, I suppose it is a pretty useful signifier of attitude.

The Corinthian

McDave wrote: »

Use your common sense. Most people would have to reach for Wikipedia to discover what the First and Second Reichs were.

Yes, the terms first, second and third Reich were first coined in 1923 in a book from which National Socialism derived much of it's views and later adopted the name to legitimize their own rule.

Prior to this, the terms first, second and third Reich did not exist and where it comes to the first and second never stuck anyway as they are commonly referred to as the Heiliges Römisches Reich and Kaiserreich respectively. Many Germans wouldn't even know what you're talking about if you talked to them about an Erste or Zweite Reich.

Pretty much everyone knows what the Third Reich is. You know. The Reich Hitler et al were involved in.

Of course, because the term (and that for the preceding two Reichs) was adopted by National Socialism and subsequently only the Third Reich stuck.

I think we can all sleep safely in our beds at night in the knowledge that when someone brings up the 'Fourth Reich', they're not invoking the Holy Roman Empire.

Agreed, they're clearly invoking German National Socialism, typically in some attempt at an appeal to emotion, to distract from any actual substance in their arguments.

Nothing like invoking the jingoistic image of the Hun to get some good clean xenophobia going.

TheLastLazyGun

Boskowski wrote: »

He's one of those Brits living in the past or pandering to those who do.

You mean that the Brits living in the present are the ones who, like the Irish Government, do as they are told by their EU masters no matter how detrimental it would be to the country and its economy and do not care that their country is run by a group of unelected foreigners who care nothing about Britain, care nothing about democracy and are completely oblivious to the real world, as shown by their whining and whingeing that nasty, evil Cameron in Westminster and nasty, evil Farage in Brussels won't allow them to increase the Brussels' budget and increase their salaries, meaning that Britain's contribution to the EU coffers will go up when British taxpayers and those around the rest of Europe are having to tighten their belts?

You swivel-eyed, frothy-mouthed Europhiles need to realise that Euroscepticism is, thankfully, the mainstream view amongst the British public now and, if no EU in/out referendum is forthcoming by the 2015 General Election (a referendum in which, I'm show, the British voters will vote to leave the EU), then UKIP will only continue to rise and rise, making the Tories more and more worried.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

I'm afraid it's my own experience that rational discussion with British Eurosceptics on Irish boards is rather pointless. Too many of them are simply agents provocateurs.

IMO, you can judge internet proponents of Farage and UKIP in exactly the same way as you can judge UKIP themselves. Their track record on Ireland is rather pathetic. Some Dubliners would have directly witnessed their pathetic 'canvassing' stunt on O'Connell Street during Lisbon 2. Not to mention the truly risible 'Respect the Ahrish No' stunt in the EP where they dressed up leprechaun-style in green T-shirts. Like they give a damn about Ireland. :pac:

You fail to mention why you Irish were told by the EU to vote in "Lisbon 2" in the first place.

It's because in "Lisbon 1" you gave the answer that your EU masters didn't want you to give: i.e. a big, fat "NO".

So what did your EU masters do? Make you vote again until you gave them the "right" answer: i.e. "YES".

Yet the Irish do no seem overly concerned at the EU's disgraceful and disturbing snub to Irish democracy. You all, like the "Good Europeans" that you are, meekly went back to the polls and made sure you all voted the way your EU masters wanted you to vote in the second referendum.

If that had happened in Britain - the EU making us all vote again in a referendum because we had the audacity to give the "wrong" answer" - there'd be marches of protest in London and people will be going over to the EU parliament in Brussels to thrown paint at passing MEPs.

Yet you Irish don't like to show that you are "Bad Europeans" like your British neighbours so, to show that you are good boys and girls, you meekly accept the EU's two-fingered gesture to Irish democracy and make sure you behave yourselves and do what your EU masters tell you like all "Good Europeans" should.

And then when members of UKIP are standing on your soil demonstrating, quite justifiably, about the EU's disregard to Irish democracy and the opinions of the Irish people you call it a "pathetic canvassing stunt".

The only thing that's pathetic is the Irish people's shameful obedience of everything their EU masters tell them to do.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

And then when members of UKIP are standing on your soil demonstrating, quite justifiably, about the EU's disregard to Irish democracy and the opinions of the Irish people you call it a "pathetic canvassing stunt".

The only thing that's pathetic is the Irish people's shameful obedience of everything their EU masters tell them to do.

*Yawn*

UKIP 'demonstrating' against Lisbon on Dublin streets was a bit more than a 'pathetic canvassing stunt', I suppose. In its own way it helped turn a few votes the Yes direction! Thanks Noige.

Looking forward to a UK referendum on EU membership. Be careful what you wish for. You may have to change your name to EIP in pretty short order.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Looking forward to a UK referendum on EU membership.

So am I. Because I'm certain we'll vote to leave the EU and then we can start proceedings to leave this godforsaken monstrosity and run our own country ourselves, like any normal, free, sovereign state.

TheLastLazyGun

By the way, UKIP did very well in the three by-elections the other day.

They finished SECOND behind Labour in both Middlesbrough and Rotherham and they finished third behind Labour and the Conservatives in Croydon North.

In Rotherham, the Tories finished FIFTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP and Respect in that order, and the Liberal Democrats finished EIGHTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP, Respect, the Conservatives, the English Democrats and an Independent.

Labour may have won in Rotherham but they lost votes to UKIP, with a 7.13% swing from Labour to UKIP. This not only reflects the Euroskeptic views of the people of Rotherham but also shows their anger at the Labour-controlled council taking foster children from a couple just because they happened to be members of UKIP.

In Croydon North, the Liberal Democrats finished fourth, finishing behind Labour, the Conservatives and UKIP.

All this shows that UKIP have definitely supplanted the Liberal Democrats as Britain's third party and are a rising force in British politics, reflecting the growing Euroskepticism of the British people.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

So am I. Because I'm certain we'll vote to leave the EU and then we can start proceedings to leave this godforsaken monstrosity and run our own country ourselves, like any normal, free, sovereign state.

Your understanding of 'sovereignty' seems to me to be a little out if date in the post-WW2 world.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with wanting to plough your own furrow. But in Britain's case, you just can't seem to let go of the comfort blanket of the outdated and fracturing 'special relationship'. It's a pity really because Britain has a lot of strengths. But they just don't seem to be able to come to terms with Germany and France.

British Euroscepticism is pure negative knee-jerk posturing at this point. The stabilisation of the Euro will expose many of the weaknesses in the British model, not least its inequality. Those inequalities may well lead to the fracturing of the UK itself. If so, England will continue its slow decline into international irrelevance as the Eurozone develops an economically and environmentally more stable approach to business, society and politics.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

By the way, UKIP did very well in the three by-elections the other day.

They finished SECOND behind Labour in both Middlesbrough and Rotherham and they finished third behind Labour and the Conservatives in Croydon North.

In Rotherham, the Tories finished FIFTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP and Respect in that order, and the Liberal Democrats finished EIGHTH behind Labour, UKIP, BNP, Respect, the Conservatives, the English Democrats and an Independent.

Labour may have won in Rotherham but they lost votes to UKIP, with a 7.13% swing from Labour to UKIP. This not only reflects the Euroskeptic views of the people of Rotherham but also shows their anger at the Labour-controlled council taking foster children from a couple just because they happened to be members of UKIP.

In Croydon North, the Liberal Democrats finished fourth, finishing behind Labour, the Conservatives and UKIP.

All this shows that UKIP have definitely supplanted the Liberal Democrats as Britain's third party and are a rising force in British politics, reflecting the growing Euroskepticism of the British people.

Unlike Libertas here, UKIP are an organised party.

Like Libertas, UKIP's agenda is largely populist and negative. So their appeal will have a limited lifespan as British politics corrects its imbalances.

Ironically, any further success for UKIP will be at the expense of the Tories, and likely to benefit Labour (and a more constructive attitude to the EU) - a kind of British Ross Perot, if you will.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Your understanding of 'sovereignty' seems to me to be a little out if date in the post-WW2 world.

Try telling that to the 83% of the world's countries which are sovereign, independent states, free from the meddling hands of pointless EU meddling and bureaucracy which stifles economic growth.

Britain needs to leave the EU and become a free, independent state once more, run by elected British MPs rather than unelected foreigners who care nothing of Britain.

But in Britain's case, you just can't seem to let go of the comfort blanket of the outdated and fracturing 'special relationship'.
It's a pity really because Britain has a lot of strengths. But they just don't seem to be able to come to terms with Germany and France.

The United States is more of a friend and ally to Britain than France, Germany, Ireland and our other so-called EU "allies" will ever be.

Britain needs OUT of the EU and it needs to forge closer links to our TRUE friends and allies in the Commonwealth and the United States, of which we have much more in common.

British Euroscepticism is pure negative knee-jerk posturing at this point.

Codswallop. The British are, rightly, angered by, amongst other things, EU bureaucrats telling us that the EU budget needs to be increased so that hard-pressed British taxpayers, who are having to tighten their belts, have to pay even more to inefficient French farmers (we pay four times more to wealthy French farmers than to poor African ones) and to give EU bureaucrats a pay rise.

Once the EU ever starts inhabiting the real world - if it's at all possible - then maybe the British will start being less Euroskeptic,

The stabilisation of the Euro will expose many of the weaknesses in the British model, not least its inequality.

The Euro will never stabilise. It's a doomed currency which will not last beyond 2015 and Britain was RIGHT to keep the pound despite Europhiles like yourselves telling us that Britain would suffer as a result.

If so, England will continue its slow decline into international irrelevance

Yet England will be a free, sovereign state running its own affairs, unlike Ireland, which will forever be cowtowing to its German masters.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Try telling that to the 83% of the world's countries which are sovereign, independent states, free from the meddling hands of pointless EU meddling and bureaucracy which stifles economic growth.

... most of whom are in pretty bad shape or subject to the whims of a regional powerhouse.

The EU has no role in meddling in Asia (look, e.g. to China) or Latin America (look to the US). So this aspect of your post is a total non sequitur.

As it happens, most of the EU member states are at the top of the international economic tree. Of course quite a lot of them see a strategic advantage in pooling resources and sovereignty by legal consent in the EU, and especially the EZ, to get more bang for their 'buck' (or in most cases their 'Euro').

The UK isn't obliged to be in either arrangement. If the voters want do exit the EU, that's their business. [When push comes to shove, I don't think they will.] But if it does, the EU and the EZ will develop regardless.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

The United States is more of a friend and ally to Britain than France, Germany, Ireland and our other so-called EU "allies" will ever be.

Britain needs OUT of the EU and it needs to forge closer links to our TRUE friends and allies in the Commonwealth and the United States, of which we have much more in common.

There may be cultural solace in the Anglosphere. But that's really only a kind of isolationism. In reality, the US is changing beyond recognition. In a couple of decades, the US won't give a toss about an insular and isolated UK. WASPs will be in a distinct minority there, and the US will be focussed on Asia. So much for friends.

As for continental Europe, the UK would IMO be greatly misguided in pulling away from the relationship forged by post-war British politicians up to Thatcher's time. For a while the UK had a chance to develop something other than their divide and conquer diplomatic approach. But since Thatcher, the UK seems to have got itself into a funk particularly about the Germans.

It seems the Germans have been economically vindicated by maintaining a strong manufacturing base. Britain on the other hand has been utterly skewed by its over-reliance on services, especially of the financial sort. Germany has been economically pulling ahead of Britain for decades now, and many insular Brits just don't like it. So now they want to retreat into Fortress Britain.

It's a pretty defensive attitude, and I doubt it will serve Britain well in the future. Still, it's your call.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Codswallop. The British are, rightly, angered by, amongst other things, EU bureaucrats telling us that the EU budget needs to be increased so that hard-pressed British taxpayers, who are having to tighten their belts, have to pay even more to inefficient French farmers (we pay four times more to wealthy French farmers than to poor African ones) and to give EU bureaucrats a pay rise.

'Rightly'? More like self-righteously.

The UK has above-average EU income. In a club like the EU with social funds, it is always going to be a net contributor. That's the kind of solidarity that underpins the EU, albeit on a very modest level. And it's not just British tax-payers who are hard pressed.

At any rate, the EU budget is peanuts. It's bureaucracy is tiny. The increase being sought is rather trivial. Which is not to say there shouldn't be oversight. But I think most people get the idea that by helping less developed EU regions a greater benefit will accrue to all in the future.

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

The Euro will never stabilise. It's a doomed currency which will not last beyond 2015 and Britain was RIGHT to keep the pound despite Europhiles like yourselves telling us that Britain would suffer as a result.

It's stabilising as we speak. There are very strong economies behind the Eurozone, and there is strong political will to make it work. I'm confident the Euro is here for the long haul.

See you at the end of 2015 and we'll see who's right.

At that point you'll probably find that Sterling is a marginal currency, and the markets might even have a go at it to make a profit on the UK's economic imbalances. I'd say the prospect of a market run on Sterling will be greatly increased by a referendum on EU membership. A vote to exit will be manna to hedge funds and other speculators. Enjoy! :pac:

McDave

TheLastLazyGun wrote: »

Yet England will be a free, sovereign state running its own affairs, unlike Ireland, which will forever be cowtowing to its German masters.

Well, Ireland took its independence so it wouldn't have to kowtow to Westminster. I'd guess most Irish people would take the view that our economic interests are best served by voluntary involvement in a diversified legal order like the EU.

As to your comment about 'German masters', quite a few of you chaps are rather obsessed by them. It's quite some inferiority complex many British have about them. Sure, the Germans are pretty successful economically and politically. And they're playing an absolute blinder on the EZ crisis.

With all the negativity on display in London, it seems you boys are going to be among the really big losers when the Euro finally finds its internal balance. And the Germans, and those others who have democratically joined the currency, will reap a political and economic dividend.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

While we welcome robust debate, please avoid personalizing your comments. You can address the contents of someone's post without criticizing the individual.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Like Libertas, UKIP's agenda is largely populist and negative. So their appeal will have a limited lifespan as British politics corrects its imbalances.

I can't see what's negative about wanting independence from the EU, wanting to cut immigration, wanting to bring back grammar schools and wanting to increase defence spending.

UKIP's agenda is largely populist

No, it isn't. It's largely popular.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

... most of whom are in pretty bad shape

And the EU, especially the Eurozone - the Sick Man of the World - isn't?

The EU has no role in meddling in Asia (look, e.g. to China) or Latin America (look to the US).

It meddles in Britain's affairs.

As it happens, most of the EU member states are at the top of the international economic tree.

The EU and most of its member states are in terminal decline.

Britain needs to leave the Titanic that is the EU and forge closer economic links and ties with our TRUE friends and allies in the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth has just overtaken the Eurozone in terms of share of the world's economy. It is the Commonwealth where Britain's future should lie, not the sclerotic and dying EU.

the EU and the EZ will develop regardless.

The EU and, especially, the Eurozone are in terminal decline. The Euro will not live much beyond 2015 and, despite the scaremongering perpetrated by the swivel-eyed Europhile loons ten years ago, Britain's decision to stay out of the Euro and keep the Pound was one of the best decisions this country has ever made.

The EU, meanwhile, is slowly collapsing and falling apart and it doesn't have much of a future. Britain needs to leave the EU Titanic before the iceberg finally takes it, and its member states (including Ireland should the Irish be stupid enough to stay onboard), down forever.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

In a couple of decades, the US won't give a toss about an insular and isolated UK.

There is nothing insular and isolated about a country which is a member of the Commonwealth, an organisation which consists of 53 member states compared to the EU's 27 and which includes almost a third of the entire world's population.

Britain's future lies with this economically vibrant assoiation, not with the rest of Europe. Europe has had its day.

It seems the Germans have been economically vindicated by maintaining a strong
manufacturing base. Britain on the other hand has been utterly skewed by its over-reliance on services, especially of the financial sort. Germany has been economically pulling ahead of Britain for decades now, and many insular Brits just don't like it. So now they want to retreat into Fortress Britain.

Is that the same Germany which is just going back into recession whilst at the same time Britain has just come out of it? Whilst Britain grows next year Germany, France and the Eurozone as a whole will be shrinking again.

And many economists agree that it's only a matter of time before Britain overtakes Germany to become the largest economy in Western Europe. Germany isn't helped by the fact that its population is shrinking, whereas Britain's is going and will one day become bigger than Germany.

Britain's economy is also expected to France's by 2016.

and I doubt it will serve Britain well in the future.

That's what you Europhiles said ten years ago when we decided to keep the Pound.

However it turned out that you were wrong about that and we were right.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

It's stabilising as we speak. There are very strong economies behind the Eurozone, and there is strong political will to make it work. I'm confident the Euro is here for the long haul.

See you at the end of 2015 and we'll see who's right.

At that point you'll probably find that Sterling is a marginal currency, and the markets might even have a go at it to make a profit on the UK's economic imbalances. I'd say the prospect of a market run on Sterling will be greatly increased by a referendum on EU membership. A vote to exit will be manna to hedge funds and other speculators. Enjoy! :pac:

I can't believe I'm being lectured on economics by a citizen of the Eurozone.

Britain was RIGHT to stay out of the Euro, despite the scaremongering perpetrated by the Europhile weirdos.

An it will also be good for Britain to leave the EU, despite the scaremongering by Europhile weirdos.

TheLastLazyGun

McDave wrote: »

Well, Ireland took its independence

Only for fifty years though. All that bloodshed to gain independence only to give it up again just half a century later. It's quite pathetic really.

so it wouldn't have to kowtow to Westminster.

And then you swapped rule by Westminster for rule by Brussels.

I'd guess most Irish people would take the view that our economic interests are
best served by voluntary involvement in a diversified legal order like the EU.

Anyone who receives loads of money from the EU are going to like it, aren't they?

Your views would be different, though, were you a net CONTRIBUTOR to the EU rather than a net subsidy junkie.

As to your comment about 'German masters', quite a few of you chaps are rather
obsessed by them.

Yet we don't meekly take orders from them like you Irish do.

And our non-existant "obsession" with the Germans would only be just like the obsession the Irish have with the British.

It's quite some inferiority complex many British have about them.

The British don't have an inferiority complex about a country we beat twice in 30 years for our country's freedom and democracy, despite the best attempts of the Germans yet again to change all that.

Sure, the Germans are pretty successful economically and politically.

Yet Germany will be in recession in 2013 - unlike Britain.

With all the negativity on display in London, it seems you boys are going to be
among the really big losers when the Euro finally finds its internal balance.

Yet more Europhile scaremongering which will, as always, eventually be proved to be wrong.

There's a big wide world out there, pal. There are over 200 countries in this world and the planet doesn't revolve around 17 has-beens in the world's most economically stagnant club.

The Euro will not find its "internal balance". The Euro is finished. It's on its way out and deciding on not joining that disastrous and doomed currency is the best thing that Britain did.

will reap a political and economic dividend.

Well, I can't see where this "political and economic dividend" is going to come from. The Euro had been a complete and utter disaster so far and I cannot see how that is going to change.

The British were right to say "No, thanks" to it.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

TheLastLazyGun banned for a week.