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Nigel Farage MEP

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    #902
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,037 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    jank wrote: »
    Interesting comment. Perhaps then they should ask for lower wages in an effort to make themselves competitive?
    well, they are free to do so if that is what they want. understandibly, they don't want to. remember it isn't just about wage, there are a lot of things at play.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #903
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    end of the road wrote: »
    well, they are free to do so if that is what they want. understandibly, they don't want to. remember it isn't just about wage, there are a lot of things at play.

    Actually, no they cannot as most of the jobs that the unskilled would be competing for would be min wage jobs or at that level. Unless of course you are proposing that people work in the black market?

    What 'other' things are at play regarding the british unemployed?


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    #904
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    jank wrote: »
    Actually, no they cannot as most of the jobs that the unskilled would be competing for would be min wage jobs or at that level.
    Are immigrants generally looking for "unskilled", minimum wage jobs? I doubt it.
    jank wrote: »
    What 'other' things are at play regarding the british unemployed?
    Their number is falling, so Farage's arguments about foreign workers displacing the natives don't really stack up.


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    #905
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Some times it's hard to keep track of the latest members suspended from UKIP for racist views, sexism, suspected MEP expense fraud and the like. Luckily someone's keeping track of it on Tumblr.


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    #906
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Are immigrants generally looking for "unskilled", minimum wage jobs? I doubt it.

    Well historically immigrants generally they take lower skilled jobs than those that have been living in a country over an extended period of time. It is the same now as it was 200 years ago when hoards of europeans were crossing the atlantic. That is not to say there are no Polish doctors or Romanian nurses. However, a british born doctor won't exactly be unemployed nor a nurse. If you have a skill and education these effects are diluted. However at the lower end of the spectrum, its a different matter. On one hand people give out about stagnate wages and little work for the working class yet ignore increased competition for said jobs from a wider EU labour market.

    It is not the whole story of course, things like female participation of the work force and globalisation are also factors but its definitely a factor and trying to get people to acknowledge this basic fact is a challenge.


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    #907
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    jank wrote: »
    Well historically immigrants generally they take lower skilled jobs than those that have been living in a country over an extended period of time.
    I’m sure some do, but most people are not going to move countries for a minimum wage job. Even if they do, they’re not going to be content working on the minimum wage for long, so I’m really not convinced that this problem of the natives being displaced from the workforce is as serious an issue as some make out.
    jank wrote: »
    If you have a skill and education these effects are diluted.
    Ah, I see. So if you’ve gone to the bother of acquiring an education, then you’re fair game for immigrants to compete with. But, if you’re a lazy bugger who didn’t bother finishing school, then you’re entitled to protection from labour market competition.

    Yeah, that seems fair.
    jank wrote: »
    On one hand people give out about stagnate wages and little work for the working class yet ignore increased competition for said jobs from a wider EU labour market.
    Actually it tends to be the same people who complain about immigration that complain about lack of opportunities for the “working class”. These people generally overlook the fact that high unemployment and high net immigration rarely go hand-in-hand.


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    #908
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Are immigrants generally looking for "unskilled", minimum wage jobs? I doubt it.
    No, but in my experience even in skilled, educated roles they'll often get a lower salary.

    I'm not seeking to defend the UKIP in saying this, but whether you call someone an immigrant or an expat, whether they are unskilled blue-collar or skilled white-collar, they will tend to cost an enterprise less, at least for the first few years in the new country. That does act as a downward pressure on salaries at the very least, as well as create increased competition for the same pool of jobs.


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    #909
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Ah, I see. So if you’ve gone to the bother of acquiring an education, then you’re fair game for immigrants to compete with. But, if you’re a lazy bugger who didn’t bother finishing school, then you’re entitled to protection from labour market competition.

    Yeah, that seems fair.

    That is not really what I said. In some ways you are preaching to the choir here. Education is key to secure long term employment. However, for those with little education and few skills then they will be the losers with increased competition and jobs going abroad. No sector or 'class' is immune to this but the effects are more pronounced in poorer socio-economic communities.


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    #910
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I'm not seeking to defend the UKIP in saying this, but whether you call someone an immigrant or an expat, whether they are unskilled blue-collar or skilled white-collar, they will tend to cost an enterprise less, at least for the first few years in the new country. That does act as a downward pressure on salaries at the very least, as well as create increased competition for the same pool of jobs.
    Sure - I’m not disagreeing with any of that. Immigrants will often earn less purely due to having a lower standard of English (initially, at least).

    What I am disagreeing with is the general idea that immigrants tend to disproportionately compete at the lower end of the pay scale, or for what would be viewed traditionally as “working class jobs”. Even ignoring that so-called working class, blue collar jobs are often pretty well paid these days, the fact is that no matter what your profession or where you are on the pay scale, you’re competing with immigrants. Now, I’m by no means complaining about this. After all, I myself am an immigrant and I consider it one of the great successes of the EU that I and others can work pretty much anywhere we choose on this continent. However, I do resent the idea that the “working class” are somehow more deserving of protection from foreign competition.


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    #911
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    jank wrote: »
    That is not really what I said. In some ways you are preaching to the choir here. Education is key to secure long term employment. However, for those with little education and few skills then they will be the losers with increased competition and jobs going abroad. No sector or 'class' is immune to this but the effects are more pronounced in poorer socio-economic communities.
    Surely the solution is further training and education, rather than shelter from competition?


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    #912
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    I know not everyone might agree with the political views of Nigel Farage, but the behaviour of left wing protesters targeting him this weekend was beyond appalling .

    Anti-UKIP protesters have invaded a pub in
    south London where party leader Nigel Farage was having lunch.

    Mr Farage was in the Queen's Head in Downe with his wife and two younger
    children at the time.Demonstrators first went to the George & Dragon, believing it to be Mr Farage's local, before they found him.

    They said they chased the family out of the pub and jumped on the
    politician's car bonnet as he drove away.

    To invade a pub when someone is having their lunch and to target a mans family in this manner is way beyond peaceful protest and is to be condemned , Nigels family aren,t involved in any politics for them to chased out of the pub also goes to show the level, these left wing groups will personalise things with those who hold opposing views to them, lastly I can never recall left protesters ever targeting or protesting against the British Islamic extremist Anjem Choundary.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-32009961


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    #913
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Not merely appalling, but also stupid and counter-productive. The last thing his political opponents need to do is make a victim of him.


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    #914
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Not merely appalling, but also stupid and counter-productive. The last thing his political opponents need to do is make a victim of him.

    its odd to see the metro giving more variety to the story then the BBC, I read this morning that two very conflicting descriptions of events were given.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/antiukip-protesters-chase-nigel-farage-from-london-pub-and-jump-on-car-bonnet-as-he-leaves-10126160.html
    Responding to reports that Mr Farage's children had fled from the protest, Mr Glass added: "He was sitting on his own and left on his own. We didn't see any kids".

    Staff at the Queen's Head refused to comment on the episode.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32020557

    course as Oscar says it is counter productive, giving anything that ukip can use to get on tv and play the victim card is something we need to avoid.


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    #915
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭donaghs


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Are immigrants generally looking for "unskilled", minimum wage jobs? I doubt it.
    Plenty of facts suggest otherwise. And I think you already know this. Even if you don't watch the news, if you have access to the internet and use boards.ie you'd be aware of this.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gangmaster-guilty-of-manslaughter-after-21-chinese-cocklers-were-engulfed-by-tide-471318.html
    http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/east_anglia_unsustainable_immigration_rises_to_nearly_300_000_over_last_two_decades_1_3054727
    http://www.corporatewatch.org/news/2014/jul/04/%C2%A31-minimum-wage-migrant-workers
    etc

    Whether working in takeaways in cities, or farm labour in the countryside. Its the norm now. Below minimum wage too. The Chinese in Morcombe bay were only paid a few quid for a days backbreaking work.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I’m sure some do, but most people are not going to move countries for a minimum wage job.
    ?
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Even if they do, they’re not going to be content working on the minimum wage for long, so I’m really not convinced that this problem of the natives being displaced from the workforce is as serious an issue as some make out.
    As mentioned above, immigrants filling low wage jobs, often earning below minimum wage and without workplace regulations is now a reality in the UK.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Ah, I see. So if you’ve gone to the bother of acquiring an education, then you’re fair game for immigrants to compete with. But, if you’re a lazy bugger who didn’t bother finishing school, then you’re entitled to protection from labour market competition.
    Yes, we do provide social protection and safety nets to people who struggle in our society. The reform or removal of them is another debate. Tends to be more popular with "right wing" commentators.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    What I am disagreeing with is the general idea that immigrants tend to disproportionately compete at the lower end of the pay scale, or for what would be viewed traditionally as “working class jobs”. Even ignoring that so-called working class, blue collar jobs are often pretty well paid these days, the fact is that no matter what your profession or where you are on the pay scale, you’re competing with immigrants.
    You obviously don't know anyone workin fast food, or even Tesco!

    I have the privilege of a 3rd level education, modern relevant job skills and training - but even I can have sympathy for those at the lower end of the pay scale who in the past didn't have to compete with modern immigration levels, and a large part of it sub-minimum wage.


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    #916
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donaghs wrote: »
    Plenty of facts suggest otherwise. And I think you already know this. Even if you don't watch the news, if you have access to the internet and use boards.ie you'd be aware of this.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gangmaster-guilty-of-manslaughter-after-21-chinese-cocklers-were-engulfed-by-tide-471318.html
    http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/east_anglia_unsustainable_immigration_rises_to_nearly_300_000_over_last_two_decades_1_3054727
    http://www.corporatewatch.org/news/2014/jul/04/%C2%A31-minimum-wage-migrant-workers
    None of that contradicts my point? All you’ve done is show that some migrants are illegally exploited – I never suggested this doesn’t happen.
    donaghs wrote: »
    As mentioned above, immigrants filling low wage jobs, often earning below minimum wage and without workplace regulations is now a reality in the UK.
    Always has been – I never suggested otherwise.
    donaghs wrote: »
    Yes, we do provide social protection and safety nets to people who struggle in our society. The reform or removal of them is another debate. Tends to be more popular with "right wing" commentators.
    You’re arguing against a point I didn’t make.
    donaghs wrote: »
    You obviously don't know anyone workin fast food, or even Tesco!
    I’ve done plenty of that variety of work in my time.


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    #917
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Cisco100 wrote: »
    Yes....that's exactly what I meant.

    So you're saying that a former City-boy bonds trader who is being financed by big business, with a public education and strong continuing ties to the establishment is farther from the establishment than a comic who made his name by most decidedly not being establisment (not that I like Al Murray as a comedian, but I can see his angle)?


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    #918
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    end of the road wrote: »
    he's a loony. he fails to realise the employers are all ready free to make decisians, and they are employing those they feel are the best candidates for the jobs, many of which happen to be foreigners. if some british people find it hard to get jobs over foreigners, then they need to look at themselves

    It's a wonder he hasn't tried to ban English clubs from playing in the corrupt & evil European Champions League & Europa League competitions that let teams from Poland, Bulgaria & Romania play in it, He must have had a nervous breakdown during Euro 96. :pac: Maybe he'll run on that platform at the next general elections.


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