Teachers behave like children at their conferences

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-04-2014 03:10PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That attitude, taken further, could be used to justify some well-meaning parent who is decent at crosswords being installed as a teacher in their local school. It's an attitude that says, "Ah sure he's only teaching kiddies, he doesn't need to know the subject that well at all."

Strawman, as well you know -now care to answer the question?

AndonHandon · 22-04-2014 03:12PM

carraig2 wrote: »

He never taught a day in his life.

His job is not to teach though.

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 03:12PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Yes, JC stuff. Can a JC student teach it? You need to have a profound understanding of it to explain it.

Junior Cert students don't have three or four years of teacher training behind them.

brooke 2 · 22-04-2014 03:12PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Not necessarily so. Stephen Hawking might have a wonderful grasp of his subjects but wouldn't necessarily be able to relate and explain things in a way a child might understand. At primary level communication skills, the ability to adapt simple principles in creative ways to relate them to children of diverse abilities are much more important than an indept knowledge of involved and complex maths.

I don't believe Quinn understands these basic facts!

osarusan · 22-04-2014 03:13PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So you would be happy with a primary school teacher teaching english to pupils with just a primary school pupil's understanding of the subject?

Did you take honours level strawman argument construction?

Teachers should know enough maths to competently teach whatever is on the syllabus. That goes for any subject.

Teaching is far far more about imparting information in a way that students will respond to.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 03:13PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Ah, I had a feeling it came down to this.

Came down to what? Teacher's pay and conditions?

Can't both things be relevant/true? i.e. that teachers are paid relatively well and a immune to job-losses AND that it would be a good idea for new teachers to have a higher level of knowledge in mathematics?

c_man · 22-04-2014 03:13PM

I don't see why the argument for primary teachers having to have a certain standard of Irish, doesn't translate to Maths...

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 03:15PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Strawman, as well you know -now care to answer the question?

Yes, sure. Mastery of a subject, in many cases, makes one a better teacher of the basics of that subject.

bodice ripper · 22-04-2014 03:15PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Came down to what? Teacher's pay and conditions?

Can't both things be relevant/true? i.e. that teachers are paid relatively well and a immune to job-losses AND that it would be a good idea for new teachers to have a higher level of knowledge in mathematics?

Could be true, yet to be shown. Always good to know what is motivating the argument though.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 03:17PM

osarusan wrote: »

Teachers should know enough maths to competently teach whatever is on the syllabus. That goes for any subject.

Agreed - and it is the Minister for Education's view (and mine) that the "enough maths" is roughly equivalent to passing higher level leaving cert maths.

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 03:17PM

An File wrote: »

Junior Cert students don't have three or four years of teacher training behind them.

Will those extra years give the teachers any better understanding of the subject?

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 03:18PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Could be true, yet to be shown. Always good to know what is motivating the argument though.

The higher-level maths argument is motivated by having great teachers....I'd have thought the INTO would be delighted with the suggestion.

The "pay-and-conditions" argument is motivated, not so much on the pay aspect (we should pay for excellence), but on the fact that the WORST teachers in Ireland cannot be dismissed or even adequately disciplined.

osarusan · 22-04-2014 03:18PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes, sure. Mastery of a subject, in many cases, makes one a better teacher of the basics of that subject.

This is based on the notion that what separates a good teacher from a bad teacher is knowledge of the subject they are teaching. It may sometimes be true, but this is incredibly unlikely to be an issue in primary school maths class.

It is far more likely to be an issue with a teacher's ability to deliver information to students.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-04-2014 03:18PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes, sure. Mastery of a subject, in many cases, makes one a better teacher of the basics of that subject.

Neither true nor does it answer the question. I had some immensely knowledgeable teachers who very poor at engaging students.

FrStone · 22-04-2014 03:19PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It is significantly above it yes. But a person could coast through ordinary level leaving cert maths, get a bare pass and have no REAL fluency or understanding of maths.

It shouldn't be a hate-crime to suggest that primary school teachers be the absolute best that they can be (and that we would want for our children).

If you want teachers to be the absolutely best they can be they will want to be remunerated accordingly.

Also it is mad, to suggest that you need Higher Level Maths to be competent to teach Maths at 6th class level.

Woodville56 · 22-04-2014 03:19PM

So Mr Quinn wakes up in his leafy Dublin 4 suburb over the Easter and wonders how can we resolve some of the issues facing educators and parents in many schools across the country ... lets see .... maybe increase the number of primary school teachers in disadvantaged or high population growth areas so as to improve the chances of children getting a fundamental grounding in the basic subjects .... ...or maybe , improve the schools infrastructure and facilities to enable teachers do their jobs more effectively ?? No no thinks the Minister, these would be way too difficult subjects for me to tackle ... Let's try again ... Oh yeah, let's raise the bar for entry to Primary Teaching - say Honours Maths? Sure that will raise the profile of the teaching profession and 5-12 year olds will surely appreciate the theorems and algebraic equations ! On a roll now , the Minister has another idea ... Why not have another go at the Catholic's about their religion's input to schools - sure to go down well with labour intelligentsia ( is it still at 9% Minister) and do wonders for my agnostic street cred around my leafy constituency !! Besides, it will divert the attention of those pesky journo's and militant wing teachers from the the real issues in education, so I'll be able to enjoy my smoked salmon socialist beano on the teacher union conferences ! Agh , architecture was never this easy......eh Rory !!

carraig2 · 22-04-2014 03:22PM

AndonHandon wrote: »

His job is not to teach though.

And what is his job?
Because he trained as an architect so that qualifies him to........

Insect Overlord · 22-04-2014 03:22PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Will those extra years give the teachers any better understanding of the subject?

It gives them a better understanding of how to teach the subject at Primary School level. Not great for probability, complex logarithms or differentiation and integration, like, but they're not usually required in a 5th Class classroom...

brooke 2 · 22-04-2014 03:23PM

carraig2 wrote: »

And there must be more to having an ability to communicate than having an honour in maths.
Basic educational requirements????
Have you seen how high the points are for primary teaching.

Many people don't seem to realise that the points for entering
Primary teaching have traditionally been high. It is not uncommon
for people who did not originally make it to go to Uni instead to get a degree and THEN get into Primary teaching by following up their Uni degree with a year in St. Pat's College of Education!

AndonHandon · 22-04-2014 03:23PM

Woodville56 wrote: »

So Mr Quinn wakes up in his leafy Dublin 4 suburb over the Easter and wonders how can we resolve some of the issues facing educators and parents in many schools across the country ... lets see .... maybe increase the number of primary school teachers in disadvantaged or high population growth areas so as to improve the chances of children getting a fundamental grounding in the basic subjects .... ...or maybe , improve the schools infrastructure and facilities to enable teachers do their jobs more effectively ?? No no thinks the Minister, these would be way to hard subjects for me to tackle ... Let's try again ... Oh yeah, let's raise the bar for entry to Primary Teaching - say Honours Maths? Sure that will raise the profile of the teaching profession and 5-12 year olds will surely appreciate the theorems and algebraic equations ! On a roll now , the Minister has another idea ... Why not have another go at the Catholic's about their religion's input to schools - sure to go down well with labour intelligentsia and do wonders for my agnostic street cred around my leafy constituency !! Besides, it will divert the attention of those pesky journo's and militant wing teachers from the the real issues in education, so I'll be able to enjoy my smoked salmon socialist beano on the teacher union conferences ! Agh , architecture was never this easy......eh Rory !!

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Dravokivich · 22-04-2014 03:23PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Yes, JC stuff. Can a JC student teach it? You need to have a profound understanding of it to explain it.

When I was in 6th year I was explaining to the other guys in my class how to do the stuff. I hadn't even finished my leaving

bodice ripper · 22-04-2014 03:24PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The higher-level maths argument is motivated by having great teachers....I'd have thought the INTO would be delighted with the suggestion.

The "pay-and-conditions" argument is motivated, not so much on the pay aspect (we should pay for excellence), but on the fact that the WORST teachers in Ireland cannot be dismissed or even adequately disciplined.

Maybe they think it is a joke that they are being told by people further up that the problem is lack of higher maths.

I think the civil service is a joke, and I despise the unions generally, but the problem there is not the individual teachers. Why anyone would focus on the teachers ( and the nurses...) is beyond me.

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 03:25PM

An File wrote: »

It gives them a better understanding of how to teach the subject at Primary School level. Not great for probability, complex logarithms or differentiation and integration, like, but they're not usually required in a 5th Class classroom...

So should primary teachers stop their education at the end of 6th class and just learn to be teachers?

carraig2 · 22-04-2014 03:27PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Maybe they think it is a joke that they are being told by people further up that the problem is lack of higher maths.

I think the civil service is a joke, and I despise the unions generally, but the problem there is not the individual teachers. Why anyone would focus on the teachers ( and the nurses...) is beyond me.

I agree. I am not a teacher but I can sure see that the problems in education in this country are not caused by teachers not having honours maths.

I Heart Internet · 22-04-2014 03:27PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Maybe they think it is a joke that they are being told by people further up that the problem is lack of higher maths.

What problem? Quinn's suggestion is that new teachers would need higher-level maths...not an earth-shattering suggestion.

bodice ripper wrote: »

I think the civil service is a joke, and I despise the unions generally, but the problem there is not the individual teachers. Why anyone would focus on the teachers ( and the nurses...) is beyond me.

People are focussing on the teacher unions - not individual teachers - who do some marvelous work. Public sector unions had their noses to the through (like many others) during the celtic tiger - cheerleading Bertie's pay and pension's fest.

osarusan · 22-04-2014 03:27PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

So should primary teachers stop their education at the end of 6th class and just learn to be teachers?

Don't you feel any shame at such a pathetic strawman argument?

Peregrine · 22-04-2014 03:28PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Neither true nor does it answer the question. I had some immensely knowledgeable teachers who very poor at engaging students.

And I've had some teachers who were great at engaging with students but seriously lacked knowledge in what they were teaching.

We want teachers who are both knowledgable and good at teaching. The second can't be achieved through grade filters but surely the first can be achieved by making sure only students who are competent enough to pass HL in the three core subjects and a science are allowed to start primary teaching training?

Now, as for teachers who are good at engaging with students. I'm open to your suggestions on how that can be achieved with the competency in 4 subjects I've mentioned.

We have an abundance of students graduating from the Leaving Cert looking for college positions and very little job positions. Why can't we be picky?

Pherekydes · 22-04-2014 03:29PM

osarusan wrote: »

Don't you feel any shame at such a pathetic strawman argument?

You didn't direct that at An File, who suggested that expertise in probability and logs wouldn't help a primary teacher. There's the real strawman.

osarusan · 22-04-2014 03:31PM

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

And I've had some teachers who were great at engaging with students but seriously lacked knowledge in what they were teaching.

We want teachers who are both knowledgable and good at teaching. The second can't be achieved through grade filters but surely the first can be achieved by making sure only students who are competent enough to pass HL in the tree core subjects and a science are allowed to start primary teaching training?

This debate is about maths in primary school, remember.

So, is there any evidence to sugges that primary school teachers are seriously lacking knowledge in the maths they are teaching?

Woodville56 · 22-04-2014 03:32PM

AndonHandon wrote: »

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

He is the Minister for education .... His policies ... His intentions .... Nothing personal against the man but when he starts to impose his own personal ideologies on an area of public life that impacts on all of us then he's fair game for criticism as are any of his fellow ministers. Now if he was speaking about entry to Architecture in third level institutions ...fair enough ! Bet the grind schools are loving him today ... Expect the higher maths syllabus grinds to be very busy once Rory gets to exercise his latest whim !

Teachers behave like children at their conferences

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