Everything HPAT and Medicine 2014

EoghanIRL · 10-03-2014 10:17pm

spurious wrote: »

Interesting article.
Some 'educational' businesses really have a very dodgy idea of ethics.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/medical-entry-test-under-investigation-1.1718452

Yeah I read this this morning . When we were leaving exam hall several people were talking about particular questions being almost identical .
Huge problem , integrity of exam potentially ruined !
I feel like I could be at a disadvantage for not doing the course. Really interested to see how the investigation turns out .

h157 · 10-03-2014 10:26pm

http://www.imn.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5543:decision-on-hpat-due-by-end-of-2014&catid=61:news&Itemid=28

It's just a horrible situation - it's not fair. On the bright side this could be the nail in the coffin for it!

EoghanIRL · 10-03-2014 10:26pm

Caolan wrote: »

The questions they are talking about were used in the UMAT last September- my understanding is that they were not exactly the same, but had slight differences.

Quite unbelievable that HPAT used the same questions twice, in different exams in the same academic year, regardless of whether that let students remove exam questions from the hall. They are either naive or stupid to think questions wont be leaked.

I presume HPAT will remove these questions from their scoring for all candidates and simply mark the exam out of the other questions (though we will probably never be told).

On the other hand (playing devils advocate), why should some students be disadvantaged for preparing shrewdly (getting lucky)?

If I went to grinds and my grind teacher made an educated guess at topics likely to be covered in the exam (and was lucky/correct) is that any different to what has happened here?

Yes it is different !
700 people tutored by a company . The questions that come up are very similar.

Think about the integrity of the exam !
The colleges will be probably carry out and investigation as it could have such a huge impact .

If you were a candidate who didn't score high Enough would you be happy that other students had an advantage . 10 questions out of 110 is potentially 8/9 percent of questions . You not need to get 60 percent of questions .
People who didn't do med entry are potentially disadvantaged .

I personally spoke to several people who said two questions each with several parts were only slightly varied from questions med entry tutored them on.
Food for thought . Some action will have to be taken if the investigation results deem the hpat 2014 to be an unfair test .

JDOC1996 · 10-03-2014 10:34pm

I have to say, I'm absolutely outraged. They better adjust the marking accordingly.
In fairer news, the number of people applying to medicine has dropped, according to the CAOs march statistics. Could we be looking at the first points decrease in years?

EternalGeek · 10-03-2014 10:56pm

JDOC1996 wrote: »

I have to say, I'm absolutely outraged. They better adjust the marking accordingly.
In fairer news, the number of people applying to medicine has dropped, according to the CAOs march statistics. Could we be looking at the first points decrease in years?

I agree, as someone slogging their guts out to make my application as a mature student the best that it can be, it is very galling to hear someone could stand a better chance of me because they can afford the extortionist fees these prep courses charge.

StewDent · 10-03-2014 11:41pm

I, too, heard a couple of other students say how certain questions were "just like" the ******** test. It's disheartening to say the least, especially when you yourself felt the exam difficult. I'm interested to know who complained or how this investigation came about? The only way ACER can ensure that the exam maintains any integrity at all is if they determine which of the questions used in the test were similar to ones that ******** coaches on and giving them either no marks or a negligible mark.

On a lighter note I also saw that there is a reduction in the numbers applying to medicine this year. It may only be ~6% but every little helps, right?

EoghanIRL · 10-03-2014 11:51pm

Wow , seeing the reactions I don't think this is something acer can just make disappear .

Caolan · 11-03-2014 12:01am

EternalGeek wrote: »

I agree, as someone slogging their guts out to make my application as a mature student the best that it can be, it is very galling to hear someone could stand a better chance of me because they can afford the extortionist fees these prep courses charge.

Purely playing devils advocate-

does this mean anyone attending private institutions or the institute of education (arguably with the best teachers) should be docked leaving cert points.

Fact is some people took grinds from a company, the company used their experience to predict the types of questions used and hit the nail on the head. (As I said previously, the questions in doubt were used in the UMAT in sept)

Why should these students be docked marks because of their prudent preparation anymore than at any of the grind schools in the country?

It's not a perfect system and a shame it's integrity is being questioned (I'm one of the few who like the idea of the HPAT)- that's not saying people are wrong to question it (if you know what I mean)

Izymunz · 11-03-2014 12:08am

I think it isn't really the fact that they prepared for it. It is more that the questions that came up were explained to some extent. In the case of studying in the institute they are doing the same things other schools are. They are giving students the tools to answer the questions the state examinations commission makes public every year after the exams. Predictions are made about the leaving cert due to the extensive material already available for public access.

BBHenry · 11-03-2014 9:14am

I really don't blame the students who did m******* because they were just looking to prepare really well, however I sat the hpat without doing a prep course (as I'm sure many others have) and the fact that others have an advantage over us simply for forking out quite an amount of money is so disheartening. I attended a hpat talk in nuig I'm September and was told by the two Acer representatives not to do a prep course " as it could possibly hinder your own personal performance". (Obviously not true). We shouldn't be punished for sitting the exam as it should be, as Acer themselves told us to sit it? (Not having. Go at prep course people BTW)

spurious · 11-03-2014 9:29am

Acer need to look closely at their security and the professionalism of their setters/drafters. Ironic when you think of the field they are testing for.

karlllllll · 11-03-2014 5:27pm

The secrecy surrounding the exam is borderline absurd. Without a doubt you should be entitled to look at your answer booklet and see which questions you got right and wrong and the weighting for each question. Lets not forgot we all paid over 100 euro for the test. Coming out of the exam hearing people talk about how some questions were basically replicas of questions they did with ******** was just so disheartening, after putting in so much time and effort and believing everyone was on the same playing field going into the exam! How do I know especially after this test that there's no collusion between Acer and ********? Lets not forget though that if I even whisper about the exam I'll have my score set to zero. What an absolute joke! I certainly don't in anyway associate the the word integrity with Acer anymore

SaraT · 11-03-2014 5:43pm

I sat hpat myself and was disheartened afterwards. It was so much more difficult than the practice material purchased on acer website.
Now knowing about people having an unfair advantage makes me feel worse. They say 700 people attended prep course, what about the people who went halfs with them on fees and then studied together? The number could easily be 1000.

Daniel2590 · 11-03-2014 5:44pm

Why is med.entry censored here? Been meaning to ask for a while :pac:

spurious · 11-03-2014 8:09pm

Daniel2590 wrote: »

Why is med.entry censored here? Been meaning to ask for a while :pac:

They were enthusiastic spammers at one stage I think.

Kirby2k07 · 11-03-2014 11:16pm

Sure in the 'Tute and the Dublin school of Grinds half the feckin teachers there have a say in WRITING the lc questions for their given subject. The same ****e will go on.

EoghanIRL · 11-03-2014 11:35pm

Kirby2k07 wrote: »

Sure in the 'Tute and the Dublin school of Grinds half the feckin teachers there have a say in WRITING the lc questions for their given subject. The same ****e will go on.

You should read the previous points .
It's not the same thing . Hpat vs leaving cert.

Gallagher1 · 11-03-2014 11:42pm

Caolan wrote: »

Purely playing devils advocate-

does this mean anyone attending private institutions or the institute of education (arguably with the best teachers) should be docked leaving cert points.

Fact is some people took grinds from a company, the company used their experience to predict the types of questions used and hit the nail on the head. (As I said previously, the questions in doubt were used in the UMAT in sept)

Why should these students be docked marks because of their prudent preparation anymore than at any of the grind schools in the country?

It's not a perfect system and a shame it's integrity is being questioned (I'm one of the few who like the idea of the HPAT)- that's not saying people are wrong to question it (if you know what I mean)

Agree 100%! By those using the logic that people who were shrewd enough to prepare well for the HPAT should be docked marks is like saying every student in the Institute or Yeats College should be docked LC points. If anything it's ACER's fault for stupidly putting an almost identical question on the HPAT that was on last years UMAT. Nobody is to blame, not M*******, not their cohort of students but ACER.

spurious · 11-03-2014 11:53pm

Kirby2k07 wrote: »

Sure in the 'Tute and the Dublin school of Grinds half the feckin teachers there have a say in WRITING the lc questions for their given subject. The same ****e will go on.

I think it's these businesses themselves that put these rumours out there. There isn't any basis in fact to them, but hey, if it gets more paying bums on seats, go for it.

chatterboxxx95 · 12-03-2014 1:01am

Kirby2k07 wrote: »

Sure in the 'Tute and the Dublin school of Grinds half the feckin teachers there have a say in WRITING the lc questions for their given subject. The same ****e will go on.

Do they really though? I would also be inclined to think these are rumours started by the companies themselves. I remember hearing of the person who usually sets a paper for a particular leaving cert subject not being allowed to set it one year as their nephew was sitting his junior cert, so that's how strict they are with security. If these teachers are helping to set papers, I'd imagine they're professional enough to not let it influence what topics/questions they cover with their classes.

As regards Hpat debate, I agree that state exams and hpat are different. Sec don't stand up and tell you not to learn from exam papers and marking schemes or refuse to make public the papers. Acer tell you you cannot study for the hpat and basically not to waste your time trying. It's a bit disheartening to know a large percentage went in having previously seen questions or something similar when I, someone who didn't fork out a few hundred euros for a prep course, therefore went in at a disadvantage. I thought the whole idea of the hpat was to level the playing field for med, take people in from different backgrounds with the aptitude but not necessarily the 600/625 points. Clearly not, if money and private preparation courses can buy you a hpat score. I think what irritates me more than anything is not "shrewdly preparing" as it has been put, but the fact acer testing materials are unavailable to the majority but you can get your hands on them if you can afford it, thus you must pay in order to shrewdly prepare.

StewDent · 12-03-2014 2:10am

Gallagher1 wrote: »

Agree 100%! By those using the logic that people who were shrewd enough to prepare well for the HPAT should be docked marks is like saying every student in the Institute or Yeats College should be docked LC points. If anything it's ACER's fault for stupidly putting an almost identical question on the HPAT that was on last years UMAT. Nobody is to blame, not M*******, not their cohort of students but ACER.

It's not really at all though. There's never going to be a situation where just students who did a prep course will have their mark reduced. Certain questions may end up being waited differently but this will have the exact same effect on every student, whether they did a course or not. And hey, if those people have prepared diligently then they should still get enough of the other questions right to earn their place in medicine, shoudn't they?

For the record I actually have nothing against prep courses or grinds but I would take issue with someone getting a question right in an exam, especially the hpat, just because they've seen that exact question before, wouldn't you?

AtomicKoala · 12-03-2014 8:39am

karlllllll wrote: »

The secrecy surrounding the exam is borderline absurd. Without a doubt you should be entitled to look at your answer booklet and see which questions you got right and wrong and the weighting for each question.

The thing is, that simply makes it all the easier to improve prep courses - it'll make the gulf even wider.

karlllllll wrote: »

How do I know especially after this test that there's no collusion between Acer and ********?

Look, I think that's highly unlikely. This seems to be an issue of Acer repeating questions from last year's UMAT.

spurious · 12-03-2014 8:41am

AtomicKoala wrote: »

Look, I think that's highly unlikely. This seems to be an issue of Acer repeating questions from last year's UMAT.

It may well be, in which case, it's lazy work at best.

AtomicKoala · 13-03-2014 8:39am

spurious wrote: »

It may well be, in which case, it's lazy work at best.

Certainly, downright incompetent at worst.

borrch · 16-04-2014 9:40am

Hi everyone,
Just to let ye all know the mature hpat results are out (two weeks earlier than last year)

Scores are way down, so expect the LC points to drop (175 =85th%)

JDOC1996 · 16-04-2014 10:28am

Yeeeesssssssssssssssss!

mhf55 · 16-04-2014 10:30am

How much do you think entry requirements will go down by then? That's a big jump from last year!

JDOC1996 · 16-04-2014 10:33am

mhf55 wrote: »

How much do you think entry requirements will go down by then? That's a big jump from last year!

If this is true ( nearly sounds too good to be true tbh...), there could easily be a drop of 2 or 3 points, if not more.
Leaving cert points will probably remain static.

mhf55 · 16-04-2014 10:45am

JDOC1996 wrote: »

If this is true ( nearly sounds too good to be true tbh...), there could easily be a drop of 2 or 3 points, if not more.
Leaving cert points will probably remain static.

Its just made my day!

Slow Show · 16-04-2014 10:53am

borrch wrote: »

Hi everyone,
Just to let ye all know the mature hpat results are out (two weeks earlier than last year)

Scores are way down, so expect the LC points to drop (175 =85th%)

Congrats

188 was the 85th percentile last year so that's a huge difference, I would say scores would go down by ~10 if not more. I guess it was to be expected now that the results are valid for only one year. The big problem with previous years was that if the scores actually did drop and the pattern of inflation resisted, people simply reapplying to the CAO from the year before with the higher HPAT scores, though not necessarily higher percentiles, would get in easily, but now that's no longer a problem, and the scores are quite likely to vary significantly, either up or down, from year to year now. It's all the same really, you're still being judged in comparison to every other student based on the relative difficulty of the test, but it certainly seems a lot less intimidating to be aiming for a score in the 170's, even 160's would appear to give a decent shot, than 180's.

*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2014*

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Everything HPAT and Medicine 2014