If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you leave the EU?

Stavros Murphy · 06-04-2014 10:19PM

longhalloween wrote: »

I think your complaining about Globalisation there, which has little to do with the EU.

25.920 million men and women in the EU-28 are currently unemployed, pressure on wages is deflationary - manufacturing output is down and small manufacturing is being wholesale outsourced to China and the East where there are few if any of the restrictions imposed by the EU on member states with regard to the environment, H&S and Worker rights.

Upshot is, wages are falling, jobs are hard come by and EU countries are deeply indebted. And buried under EU red tape our competitors are free of. A raging success, by any standards. Go EU.

Stavros Murphy · 06-04-2014 10:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What are you even on about.

You got a point or are you just the resident acro-prop? What are you on about? Can you not read?

CJhaughey · 06-04-2014 10:26PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The "CASH" ? If my memory serves me right the bulk of the cash went to farmers and fishermen

Fishermen got nothing from joining the EU, in fact its been a total disaster for the fishing industry here. We are effectively capped at 1970's quota levels and due to the principle of relative stability we cannot increase capacity or grow the sector. In many ways Irelands dowry to the EU was its fishing waters. The richest in Europe.
When people here talk about Irelands lack of natural resources I think they must be dreaming. We have Oil and Gas and Fish, pretty much what Norway has but on smaller scale.
What we lack is a Government that governs for the greater good, instead our political system is based on cronyism and the ministers we elect are tied to the EU system.
The stealthy formation of job titles in Europe is worrying, who here voted for Herman Van Rompuy to be elected?
I don't remember being asked.
This will go on bit by bit and when the lack of voting is brought up the old chestnut is wheeled out that it doesn't make sense because there is too many voters in too many countries.
So we the elite will vote in our mates and you can just suck it up.
Remember the world has moved on, and leaving the EU doesn't mean that Ireland instantly moves back to how it was in the pre-EU days it just means that you won't be part of a greater political bloc.
There are plenty of countries that aren't part of the EU that manage just fine.

Iwasfrozen · 06-04-2014 10:32PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

You got a point or are you just the resident acro-prop? What are you on about? Can you not read?

Thankfully yes I can, they taught ne the basics before starting primary school and I've been refining it since. Though despite my 19 years of studying the written word I must admit a am at a loss as to the meaning of acro-prop. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

However I should add having used my aforementioned elementary "lexiconic virtuosity" (thank you) and having read your other posts it does seem to me you are laying the blame of the effects of globalization on the procedures and safe guards of the EU when in actuality it has nothing to do with them. As this is an understood phonomon that effects all industrialized nations in the modern era even the United States which last I checked is not a member of the EU and not subject to their policies.

Funny eh? One would think the EU had nothing to do with it. But then what excuse will we use when we want to vent about our benevolent rulers in Brussels?

Hedgemeister · 06-04-2014 10:35PM

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

it would be quite different for us to go it alone, we don't really have any natural resources of our own like the norwegians have with their oil. Most multinationals come here because we use the euro and see us a gateway to europe
Ireland without the EU would be quite backward and we would have ****e infrastructure

Shure, wouldn't the SF Money Tree see us through?

Yeah, let's leave the EU and take up platform dancing at the cross roads, re- start the Legion of Mary for the girls, the boys could embrace the Confratenity, just like the good ole days.

Cinemas / Dance Halls closed for Lent, no Marriages between Shrove Tuesday and Easter, Radio Eireann closed down at 11 pm and every Parish Priest ran his baliwick with a fist of iron. Two Newspapers, The Irish Press for the FFrs and the Independent for the FGrs...Labour didn't need a Newspaper, anyway, there wasn't enough Labour supporters to warrant one of their own.
Jeez tis a pity the young folks of today didn't see MY Ireland of the 1950s and 60s when we had real ****ing poverty (it's called Austerity now but nowhere near real poverty)
Thank God for the EEC / EU for it opened up this rotten incestious priest ridden backwater called Ireland and let in the light of progress, real education, and a bit of wealth.
We should be grateful for what Europe did for us, shovelling money at this dump of a country for nearly forty years, with so little in return.

Ireland leave the EU?

Place ourselves at the mercy of our Clergy and whatever clowns we elect to our County Councils and Dail Eireann , and without EU supervision?

We'd hardly be missed by Europe, but we would sure miss it.

How come we Irish always bite the hand that feed us?

Iwasfrozen · 06-04-2014 10:40PM

Hedgemeister wrote: »

How come we Irish always bite the hand that feed us?

It would seem Paddy has quite the avaricious streak. :P

AlanS181824 · 06-04-2014 10:41PM

I think we'd be better off as we are.

Dyr · 06-04-2014 10:49PM

Hedgemeister wrote: »

Shure, wouldn't the SF Money Tree see us through?

Yeah, let's leave the EU and take up platform dancing at the cross roads, re- start the Legion of Mary for the girls, the boys could embrace the Confratenity, just like the good ole days.

Cinemas / Dance Halls closed for Lent, no Marriages between Shrove Tuesday and Easter, Radio Eireann closed down at 11 pm and every Parish Priest ran his baliwick with a fist of iron. Two Newspapers, The Irish Press for the FFrs and the Independent for the FGrs...Labour didn't need a Newspaper, anyway, there wasn't enough Labour supporters to warrant one of their own.
Jeez tis a pity the young folks of today didn't see MY Ireland of the 1950s and 60s when we had real ****ing poverty (it's called Austerity now but nowhere near real poverty)
Thank God for the EEC / EU for it opened up this rotten incestious priest ridden backwater called Ireland and let in the light of progress, real education, and a bit of wealth.
We should be grateful for what Europe did for us, shovelling money at this dump of a country for nearly forty years, with so little in return.

Ireland leave the EU?

Place ourselves at the mercy of our Clergy and whatever clowns we elect to our County Councils and Dail Eireann , and without EU supervision?

We'd hardly be missed by Europe, but we would sure miss it.

How come we Irish always bite the hand that feed us?

ehh what the f**k did the EU have to with the catholic church in ireland?

sweet mother of f**king leo sayer, could you pack more lazy cliches into a paragraph

Still nice to see support for the EU being based on the ould reliable of post colonial self loathing, always a recipe for success that

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 11:03PM

First Up wrote: »

Thanks but I have no no intention of dignifying such a monumentally stupid proposal with an answer.
If people are so blind, ignorant or stupid not to understand how our membership of the EU took us from a peripheral backwater to a prosperous and successful place in the modern world, then what anyone posts in a forum like is not going to make any difference.

With the greatest respect, that wasn't the question nor purpose of this thread.

I've repeated ad nauseum that we need to accept the economic benefits that being a member of the EU has profited us over the course of membership. These economic points are beyond dispute and debate as far as I'm concerned.

For the umpteenth time, I'm trying to focus on the political trajectory that the EU is heading toward. The political aspects of this union have been increasingly pronounced over the past twenty years and will no doubt increase further over the next twenty. It's this question that I was hoping to be discussed but all that appears to be happening is people making cheap comments about the economy assuming I'm disagreeing with them, when in fact I agree.

tomwaterford · 06-04-2014 11:04PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what of your parents? How would you feel if their pension wad wiped out? Would you replace it? Very selfish thinking on your part imo.

my parents have no pension....any private pension fund ive known have shown to be a scam (wateford glass and now esb)

so I think il take my chances with just saving lump sum...not leaving someone gamble with my money:)

dj jarvis wrote: »

essentially funding the next generation , the retired spend more on "luxury" items than all the other groups combined , the lack of spending with peoples pensions also hurts the economy , the older generation are better at spending their money locally , taking away this spending power by reduced pensions hurts the LOCAL economy.

bailing out the banks was for sure a bitter pill to swallow, but to not i think would have wiped it all out for everyone , we would have gotten free time travel back to 1980 in a flash.

it was the lesser of 2 evils IMO

putting in economic stragies that require people to work for nothing/emigrate to find work has a worse effect on local economies than losing private pension schemes

sure how could it wipe out everyone...what of those who didn't benefit from the boom...and had nothing in savings??

im talking those who were sneered and laughed at for not partaking in the madness of living on borrowed money/making quick easy buck

as the man who I worked under when I left school told me...the only way for anyone to make a killing in this life is for someone else to lose aload first!!

Iwasfrozen · 06-04-2014 11:06PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

With the greatest respect, that wasn't the question nor purpose of this thread.

I've repeated ad nauseum that we need to accept the economic benefits that being a member of the EU has profited us over the course of membership. These economic points are beyond dispute and debate as far as I'm concerned.

For the umpteenth time, I'm trying to focus on the political trajectory that the EU is heading toward. The political aspects of this union have been increasingly pronounced over the past twenty years and will no doubt increase further over the next twenty. It's this question that I was hoping to be discussed but all that appears to be happening is people making cheap comments about the economy assuming I'm disagreeing with them, when in fact I agree.

The point being made I believe is that the economic benefits of membership outweight the downsides of taking power away from the Dublin government if you consider that a bad thing.

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 11:08PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The point being made I believe is that the economic benefits of membership outweight the downsides of taking power away from the Dublin government if you consider that a bad thing.

Yes - it's a reasonable link to draw but I think it would be more profitable if people were explicit about these political aspects rather than attacking my posts under the false premise that I somehow bizarrely believe the EU has had no effect on Ireland's past economic success.

Iwasfrozen · 06-04-2014 11:08PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

my parents have no pension....any private pension fund ive known have shown to be a scam (wateford glass and now esb)

so I think il take my chances with just saving lump sum...not leaving someone gamble with my money:)

No disrespect but that's just ignorance.

That is of course your choice, a foolish one but your choice to make none the less.

Mr. G · 06-04-2014 11:10PM

I don't mind it.

If I get sick of Ireland I can always live and work in any other EU member state and.

The Government need some guidance

fatbhoy · 06-04-2014 11:12PM

They tuk our fish!!

amkin25 · 06-04-2014 11:13PM

We might have more wealth now than in the past but that will be short lived . As we have sold off any assets and irish home and property owners have been stripped by banks and its a firesale of irish private property been going on this 5 years to who?

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 11:17PM

Can we please park discussion of the benefits and otherwise of the economic aspects of the EU both past and present. We can all agree on the benefits that the EU has provided.

Let's discuss the political implications (i.e. you know, the point of the thread) of a more centralised authority with more and more "appointed" officials who are, at present, developing more sophisticated forms of EU foreign policy, navy/army formation etc. Is this political entity and, by extension, diminishing of national sovereignty, a positive thing in the world today?

Every post hereafter concerning the merits of the economy is distinctly off topic.

tomwaterford · 06-04-2014 11:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No disrespect but that's just ignorance.

That is of course your choice, a foolish one but your choice to make none the less.

I know plenty of people who were paying 30+ years into the glass pension and now have nothing???
its far from ignorance:(

now back to the tread...I would prefer to do slightly less well economically..(Europe not exactly tearing up trees in terms of unemployment rate at the min anyway)
than to give more power to an unelectated and seeminly unaccountable offials in Europe....it makes me uneasy that people can make descisions that affect millions and effectively don't have to account for them!!

*this should be said that Ireland has done extraordinarly well out of Europe membership....the moment it starts to do negatively out of it...we should take a serious long term look at where its headed

Ireland should look out for its own interest first...England withdrawing shouldn't mean we follow them.

RahenyD5 · 06-04-2014 11:21PM

Ireland won't leave that's for sure, but what if the Brits vote to leave? Then the North may get cut off from us by a physical border again...

A Brexit could have an affect on Ireland because of the links between the two countries - trade, cultural and the North itself etc. If Ireland, in the future, elects a SF Taoiseach with the UK having an Ukip/Tory PM then this may drive a wedge in the currently stable & cordial Brit-Irish relations. Can you see Gerry Adams getting on well with Farage or Cameron?

I'm not sure a federal Europe is a good idea if the EU plans to gradually take away our identity, making us the same as Germans under "European" citizenship as we'll be under a country called "Europe" instead of Ireland.

The idea of a blue passport with the EU stars logo and simply "EUROPE" on the front turns my blood cold. We fought for our freedom and sovereignty from the Brits only to give it away nearly a century later?

No wonder the Brits are being combative towards the EU, fiercely protecting their identity and sovereignty that we don't seem to be doing much for our own country!

longhalloween · 06-04-2014 11:27PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

25.920 million men and women in the EU-28 are currently unemployed, pressure on wages is deflationary manufacturing output is down and small manufacturing is being wholesale outsourced to China and the East where there are few if any of the restrictions imposed by the EU on member states with regard to the environment, H&S and Worker rights.
Upshot is, wages are falling, jobs are hard come by and EU countries are deeply indebted. And buried under EU red tape our competitors are free of. A raging success, by any standards. Go EU.

Leaving the EU would only worsen everything you mentioned there.

What makes you think that Ireland leaving the EU will bring a surge in jobs, a growth of Irish manufacturing? You think all the multinationals will be interested in staying here? That somehow our wage levels/no natural resources and no experience with manufacture will result in Ireland becoming Europe's workshop?

This is all laughable.

CJhaughey · 06-04-2014 11:46PM

longhalloween wrote: »

Leaving the EU would only worsen everything you mentioned there.

What makes you think that Ireland leaving the EU will bring a surge in jobs, a growth of Irish manufacturing? You think all the multinationals will be interested in staying here? That somehow our wage levels/no natural resources and no experience with manufacture will result in Ireland becoming Europe's workshop?

This is all laughable.

Whats laughable is the fact that most people are blind to the fact that we have natural resources, plenty of them in fact.
But at the moment we cannot make use of them because we are just a vassal state.
MNC's are only here because the tax can be hidden here easily.
Fine for Dublin but the rest of Ireland is rapidly shutting up shop and moving away.
Closer integration into Europe is a bad thing, look at how fearful Europe is of Scotland seceding from the UK, Barroso mentioned that Scotland may not be able to be in the EU. Conveniently forgetting that the Germans had reunification not so long ago and that E. Germany was brought back into the EU no questions asked.
But the big EU states hold the power and what they want happens.

Davarus Walrus · 06-04-2014 11:50PM

CJhaughey wrote: »

Conveniently forgetting that the Germans had reunification not so long ago and that E. Germany was brought back into the EU no questions asked.

Eh, that was always seen as one of the central tenets of any chats between the Germans and the French, even before the EEC.

longhalloween · 06-04-2014 11:57PM

CJhaughey wrote: »

Whats laughable is the fact that most people are blind to the fact that we have natural resources, plenty of them in fact.
But at the moment we cannot make use of them because we are just a vassal state.

We can't use them either because of Irish Govt red tape, the cost of extraction is too great, or that every time some sort of mining or drilling is proposed the locals are up in arms against it.

CJhaughey wrote: »

MNC's are only here because the tax can be hidden here easily.

That's true, but whats the point of having your European office in an non-EU country. Ireland's position as an EU, English speaking, euro using state that's closest to the US, with US preclearance at Dublin Airport is as good a reason as any to locate here.

CJhaughey wrote: »

Fine for Dublin but the rest of Ireland is rapidly shutting up shop and moving away.

That's not Europe's fault. It's partly the Irish government and partly a general population shift from rural areas to cities. Nearly all major towns and cities are growing.

tomwaterford · 07-04-2014 12:01AM

longhalloween wrote: »

That's not Europe's fault. It's partly the Irish government and partly a general population shift from rural areas to cities. Nearly all major towns and cities are growing.

what major towns outside of Dublin and its commuter towns are growing in Ireland....cork and galway barly holding there own/showing little or no growth...

it will be a impossible thrend to reverse though...it seems to be hard to see how it can be reversed!!

Stavros Murphy · 07-04-2014 12:05AM

longhalloween wrote: »

Leaving the EU would only worsen everything you mentioned there.

What makes you think that Ireland leaving the EU will bring a surge in jobs, a growth of Irish manufacturing? You think all the multinationals will be interested in staying here? That somehow our wage levels/no natural resources and no experience with manufacture will result in Ireland becoming Europe's workshop?

This is all laughable.

We could devalue our own currency and set our own interest rates. It'll happen anyway, regardless. The Euro is staggering along, eventually it will be let fall. The EU will go the same way. Unemployment and economic weakness will be the driver. Politics is all about the economy, eventually, pressure from the unemployed will prevail over political master-plans of EU centralists.

07-04-2014 12:06AM

I used to work in the UK and a colleague used to bang on about the EU and how it caused pointless red tape etc.
I pushed him once on what would change if the UK left and all he could think of was the maximum average 48 hour week.
He wanted our employer to be able to force us to work more than 48 hours per average week.

What do those who want us to leave propose we would be able to change?
Scrapping the Nitrates directive? (Protecting our ground water from agricultural pollution), the Habitats directive? ( designating and protecting specific areas like bogs or sand dunes.)

The benefits of being in the EU are so well embedded that we take it for granted.

longhalloween · 07-04-2014 12:10AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

it will be a impossible thrend to reverse though...it seems to be hard to see how it can be reversed!!

Leaving the EU is not going to reverse it one bit.

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

We could devalue our own currency and set our own interest rates. It'll happen anyway, regardless. The Euro is staggering along, eventually it will be let fall. The EU will go the same way. Unemployment and economic weakness will be the driver. Politics is all about the economy, eventually, pressure from the unemployed will prevail over political master-plans of EU centralists.

Yes, devaluing the currency of a nation that imports 90% of it's energy and god knows how much else.

The unemployed will love it when the cost of living increases.

tomwaterford · 07-04-2014 12:11AM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

We could devalue our own currency and set our own interest rates. It'll happen anyway, regardless. The Euro is staggering along, eventually it will be let fall. The EU will go the same way. Unemployment and economic weakness will be the driver. Politics is all about the economy, eventually, pressure from the unemployed will prevail over political master-plans of EU centralists.

it will only fail if the numbers don't stack up.....I would like to see a debt to income chart and realistic projections...

these for whatever reason aren't easily available
the politians will only change it when it becomes remarkably unpopular to support it and there jobs are at risk

this is why there is a push to have unelected and unaccountable offials over all of it
how people blindly follow this as a positive is a dangerous undemocratic trend IMO

Uriel. · 07-04-2014 12:19AM

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Im not a fan of the EU after all the silly laws they force upon us

what laws are these?

Holsten · 07-04-2014 12:19AM

Hell no.

If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you leave the EU?

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