If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you leave the EU?

longhalloween · 06-04-2014 07:21PM

STEINBERG wrote: »

such great insight into the discussion!! i almost feel sorry for you

We're still waiting for some insight from you. You've about 10 comments in this thread and not one of them has any form of argument or fact.

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 07:22PM

Rothmans wrote: »

Fair enough, but I don't want to be involved in this debate then.

Its like asking 'Should we join NATO, but completely disregard the effect it would have on our military'.

It's not the same as that because joining NATO is a political manoeuvre in itself.

This debate is about whether the EU should become even worse (than NATO) in terms of its politicisation.

In other words, I could agree with every single economic argument you've put forth, but it doesn't change a single thing about the central debate I've tried to raise. They're two entirely separate questions i.e. you can have a successful economic zone without the unnecessary OTT political effects.

Rothmans · 06-04-2014 07:22PM

STEINBERG wrote: »

so would you clear to point out why?

Its nothing to do with countries wanting to trade with us, or picking on us because we leave the EU, as you seem to think. Its about significant customs and other duties being put on our produce thus making it impractical and nonviable to trade with Irish businesses, not to mention the disastrous knock-on effect that this would have on the many MNCs that have their European HQs in Ireland.

superglue · 06-04-2014 07:29PM

STEINBERG wrote: »

why? because we wouldnt be tied to the rules that the EU seem to like to empower on countries....... I would love to see how Ireland would have feared if we had not joined the EU... people seem to think that ohh it was great because of this that and the other,, but it seems this that and the other has this country and half its EU counterparts in finacial ruin.. but sure its all a good thing nontheless.. stop trying to pull a fast one.

we are better off out of the EU period

Placing the word "period" at the end of your claim doesn't substantiate anything...

FACT.

longhalloween · 06-04-2014 07:32PM

superglue wrote: »

Placing the word "period" at the end of your claim doesn't substantiate anything...

FACT.

Full stop?

Iwasfrozen · 06-04-2014 07:45PM

No i wouldn't vote to leave the EU tomorrow and actually I support the formation of a European confederation.

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 07:49PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

and actually I support the formation of a European confederation.

Well done on being the first person to address the question at hand - even though I disagree with it at least you answered it. :pac:

oldyouth · 06-04-2014 07:50PM

Nope, we've proven we can't govern ourselves without being regulated

dj jarvis · 06-04-2014 07:52PM

will all the idiots who think leaving the EU would be a plus for Ireland, please all gather at Dublin airport and feck off to a non EU country.

you have no idea what you are ****ing on about

CONVENIENTLY forgetting what state the country was in before the structural funds started to flow into the state , we had no roads , schools or industry to talk of no less than 30 years ago

I remember what it was like - it was a backward hole - you should check out the newsweek front cover that had a picture of a beggar on o connol bridge, we were the POOREST ECC nation. think Albania of the EEC

only reason we have investment into this country is a legacy of the cash that was pumped into it ( mainly by the Germans as a thank you for ruining Thatchers plans to stop German reunification )

but its normally the under 30's who dont remember what a kip this place was prior to EC membership who want to leave , after they have had their EU funded health care , free 3rd level ( subsidized by the EU ) and working in jobs that are only in the country becasue of our EU membership and the fact we speak English

Well , you can all fu2ck off , good luck to ya , leave your EU passport at the check in desk

clowns :mad:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 06-04-2014 07:57PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Well done on being the first person to address the question at hand - even though I disagree with it at least you answered it. :pac:

Well I already stated a wish for a federal states of Europe! The only way forward. I have seen many polital experiments and conventions in my 70 years and the further development of a political union of Europe is the most exciting and encouraging I have yet encountered.

It seems over 80% are voting No anyway.

Cantremember · 06-04-2014 07:59PM

No. Thinking back to the poverty stricken priest ridden society we were there is no doubt that we are better off in the EU.

Stavros Murphy · 06-04-2014 08:02PM

Rothmans wrote: »

Its clear enough that you don't know what you're talking about.

I happen to fully agree with him. I'm guessing I've no idea either. The EU has been a disaster for Europe's economies, single currency is a failed experiment and ceding power to an unelected central bureaucracy is a recipe for long-term one-size-doesn't-fit-all decisions that are not in our best interests. How great has the EU and indeed the Euro been for Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland? Not as great as it has been for Germany, that's for sure.

MadYaker · 06-04-2014 08:05PM

Nodin wrote: »

1 Hold Referendum
2 Leave EU
3 ????????????
4 Profit!!!!!!!!!!!

There have been loads of these threads on boards and pretty much every argument saying we should leave boils down to this.

I haven't seen any coherent or logical fact based arguments that say we should leave and I don't think this thread is going to give us one.

dj jarvis · 06-04-2014 08:05PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I happen to fully agree with him. I'm guessing I've no idea either. The EU has been a disaster for Europe's economies, single currency is a failed experiment and ceding power to an unelected central bureaucracy is a recipe for long-term one-size-doesn't-fit-all decisions that are not in our best interests. How great has the EU and indeed the Euro been for Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland? Not as great as it has been for Germany, that's for sure.

its been a dream come true , you have never been to the above country's pre EU membership and the CASH that came with it

3 of the country's you mentioned JUST came out of military dictatorships
and we were in the throws of a near civil war

amazing how people forget what things used to be like

Manach · 06-04-2014 08:09PM

Given how utterly the political classes have sold the EU Dream and that they have funded their vision of society with EU funding, the logistical nightmare alone would preclude a move to another polity.

Sulla Felix · 06-04-2014 08:12PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Based on this, I think the European project has gone too far in every political respect; whether it comes to refusing to accept referenda results, installation of unelected politicians as leaders of Europe, gradual siphoning off democracy, and many other obvious but equally important shortcomings.

All other things being equal (assuming a normal economy etc.), would you relinquish membership of the EU if you had a referendum due to its encroaching political effects?

I'm a federalist. USE here we come!

minidazzler · 06-04-2014 08:12PM

I'm very Pro-Europe. To the point where I would think going on the US model for Europe might be better over all. States rights but Federal control.

dj jarvis · 06-04-2014 08:15PM

minidazzler wrote: »

I'm very Pro-Europe. To the point where I would think going on the US model for Europe might be better over all. States rights but Federal control.

sure its as good as that now anyway

MRnotlob606 · 06-04-2014 08:18PM

it would be quite different for us to go it alone, we don't really have any natural resources of our own like the norwegians have with their oil. Most multinationals come here because we use the euro and see us a gateway to europe
Ireland without the EU would be quite backward and we would have ****e infrastructure

MadYaker · 06-04-2014 08:21PM

Gotta laugh at people blaming our economic woes on the E.U, the people who bailed us out when we completely failed at managing our own banking system.

The only people who think it would be a good idea to leave are the ones that have no idea what their talking about.

Stavros Murphy · 06-04-2014 08:27PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Gotta laugh at people blaming our economic woes on the E.U, the people who bailed us out when we completely failed at managing our own banking system.

The only people who think it would be a good idea to leave are the ones that have no idea what their talking about.

In your own, limited, view. A view that is no more or less biased and limited than mine. This is a thread on opinions. You have yours, I have mine. I didn't say you had no idea what you are talking about, why say that about my view? It's my view, trust me. If I had another view, I'd tell you.

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 08:29PM

Journey Strong Jacket wrote: »

Well I already stated a wish for a federal states of Europe! The only way forward. I have seen many polital experiments and conventions in my 70 years and the further development of a political union of Europe is the most exciting and encouraging I have yet encountered.

It seems over 80% are voting No anyway.

I must have missed that part so.

With respect, the 80% who voted no are doing so on a false premise - they probably think, thanks to people floating the economic argument, that this debate concerns that and not the political union of countries, abolition of democracy etc.

I agree with almost everyone when it comes to economic benefits of Europe, I just don't support the idea of a system that abolishes national sovereignty and a system that is intent on expanding a EU military and foreign policy.

For instance, the Lisbon Treaty was as much political as it was economical with the formation of a position called the "High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy".

That position is essentially that of "Foreign Secretary". This has absolutely nothing to do with the economic advantages that the EU has brought and so I don't see any need to introduce it or other expansionist-esque positions.

Gloomtastic! · 06-04-2014 08:31PM

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

it would be quite different for us to go it alone, we don't really have any natural resources of our own like the norwegians have with their oil. Most multinationals come here because we use the euro and see us a gateway to europe
Ireland without the EU would be quite backward and we would have ****e infrastructure

If you look at the majority of the large MNC's the Ireland office is their EMEA office - Europe, Miiddle East and Africa.....

Elmer Blooker · 06-04-2014 08:32PM

dj jarvis wrote: »

its been a dream come true , you have never been to the above country's pre EU membership and the CASH that came with it

3 of the country's you mentioned JUST came out of military dictatorships
and we were in the throws of a near civil war

amazing how people forget what things used to be like

The "CASH" ? If my memory serves me right the bulk of the cash went to farmers and fishermen who got paid to sit on their arses and do nothing which did nothing more than create a "handout" culture. I don't think we got as much out the EU as we think we did but having said that leaving the EU is not an option.
I can't remember being in the "throws of a near civil war" There was a conflict north of the border in British jurisdiction.

First Up · 06-04-2014 08:33PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Over the past few weeks there have been several debates in the UK between the UKIP leader Nigel Farage and the Lib Dem's Nick Clegg over membership of the EU. I think Farage makes some excellent points and the debates are certainly worth a watch if you haven't seen them already.

Based on this, I think the European project has gone too far in every political respect; whether it comes to refusing to accept referenda results, installation of unelected politicians as leaders of Europe, gradual siphoning off democracy, and many other obvious but equally important shortcomings.

All other things being equal (assuming a normal economy etc.), would you relinquish membership of the EU if you had a referendum due to its encroaching political effects?

Don't be ridiculous.

wretcheddomain · 06-04-2014 08:36PM

First Up wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous.

Leave your thank-whoring post at the door please and enter with constructive dialogue as opposed to cheap sound bites aimed at getting your thanks up a few notches.

Sulla Felix · 06-04-2014 08:38PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

With respect, the 80% who voted no are doing so on a false premise - they probably think, thanks to people floating the economic argument, that this debate concerns that and not the political union of countries, abolition of democracy etc.

Then you should have crafted a more subtle poll. I'd love to know the breakdown of the 80%. I've a feeling there are more federalists out there than you think.

TheBegotten · 06-04-2014 08:40PM

With respect, the 80% who voted no are doing so on a false premise - they probably think, thanks to people floating the economic argument, that this debate concerns that and not the political union of countries, abolition of democracy etc.

No, I'd vote to stay within the EU and would probably vote for a quasi-autocratic federalisation of Europe. I really don't think we are a big enough country to survive on our own, and have proved on several occasions that we are barely capable of governing ourselves. A federalised Europe would have more significant political clout on an international space and would bring us to compete with the likes of China and the US as a single entity.

Furthermore, as far as our own internal politics are concerned, it would decrease the effect parish pump politics have on our overall political system. Eejits like the Healy-Raes would be confined to local politics and have a lesser say on a national level if, say, we can't change the rate of our taxes or increase subsidies for certain areas/industries past a certain amount. And if we got German or Swedish level public services I wouldn't complain.

Also, I'm not in favour of traditional nationalist policies on any scale. I think (call me naive) that at some stage or another people will have to abolish borders and nations to unite as a species. It's starting to happen now as people from institutions across the world are coming together to share research notes and facilities to help cure cancer or conduct research at CERN.

First Up · 06-04-2014 08:54PM

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Leave your thank-whoring post at the door please and enter with constructive dialogue as opposed to cheap sound bites aimed at getting your thanks up a few notches.

Thanks but I have no no intention of dignifying such a monumentally stupid proposal with an answer.
If people are so blind, ignorant or stupid not to understand how our membership of the EU took us from a peripheral backwater to a prosperous and successful place in the modern world, then what anyone posts in a forum like is not going to make any difference.

Sh1tbag OToole · 06-04-2014 08:55PM

Im not a fan of the EU after all the silly laws they force upon us and how they pretty much forced us to pay this 200bn of debt. Also the goal of the European project appears to be turning every state into a bland characterless sh1thole like Belgium. I'd say in 50 years there will be absolutely no point in any European going on holidays in a different EU member state because it will all be the same bland overregulated standardised rubbish

If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you leave the EU?

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