If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you leave the EU?

wretcheddomain

Over the past few weeks there have been several debates in the UK between the UKIP leader Nigel Farage and the Lib Dem's Nick Clegg over membership of the EU. I think Farage makes some excellent points and the debates are certainly worth a watch if you haven't seen them already.

Based on this, I think the European project has gone too far in every political respect; whether it comes to refusing to accept referenda results, installation of unelected politicians as leaders of Europe, gradual siphoning off democracy, and many other obvious but equally important shortcomings.

All other things being equal (assuming a normal economy etc.), would you relinquish membership of the EU if you had a referendum due to its encroaching political effects?

My name is URL

No.. that would be an utter disaster for Ireland

wazky

My name is URL wrote: »

No.. that would be an utter disaster for Ireland

Because everything at the moment is peachy.

wretcheddomain

Well, to be fair, the example I raised is meant to focus on the political implications of leaving or staying in the EU.

Yes - tomorrow wouldn't be ideal from an economic standpoint, but the reference to "tomorrow" was meant in an exaggerated way to focus on the political aspects which will be here a lot longer than any economic effect.

STEINBERG

My name is URL wrote: »

No.. that would be an utter disaster for Ireland

would you care to explain why? because if you ask me it would be the best decision ever made

Rothmans

Things are finally starting to look up, so lets leave the EU and potentially cut off a significant bulk of international trade and foreign direct investment.

Makes sense

My name is URL

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Well, to be fair, the example I raised is meant to focus on the political implications of leaving or staying in the EU.

Yes - tomorrow wouldn't be ideal from an economic standpoint, but the reference to "tomorrow" was meant in an exaggerated way to focus on the political aspects which will be here a lot longer than any economic effect.

Leaving the EU would also mean that we'd lose the protections afforded to us under EU laws and its courts. The economical ramifications of leaving is just tip of the iceberg stuff.

wazky wrote: »

Because everything at the moment is peachy.

What's your point? I never suggested things were perfect or even close to it. Do you think we'd be better off we were not part of the EU?

longhalloween

No because I like being able to work and travel unrestricted in the EU.

STEINBERG

Rothmans wrote: »

Things are finally starting to look up, so lets leave the EU and potentially cut off a significant bulk of international trade and foreign direct investment.

Makes sense

why do you think that all that trade would be cut off? of course it would''nt people seem to think that because we are part of the EU that it is like some special club where we cant do anything outside of it.... complete bull... if anything international trade and investment would increase

riffmongous

No, personally living in Austria it would make no sense for me to vote for either Ireland or Austria to leave the EU (not that I could vote anyway)

Rothmans

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Well, to be fair, the example I raised is meant to focus on the political implications of leaving or staying in the EU.

Yes - tomorrow wouldn't be ideal from an economic standpoint, but the reference to "tomorrow" was meant in an exaggerated way to focus on the political aspects which will be here a lot longer than any economic effect.

It's a bit ridiculous asking would we leave the EU, but to completely disregard the primary reason why the EU was formed in the first place though.

longhalloween

STEINBERG wrote: »

if anything international trade and investment would increase

Why?

Banjoxed

Yay to Ireland leaving the EU - that is of course if you want Ireland to have a toilet currency and selling everything off to the Russians and Chinese in a firesale.

A carpetbagger's wet dream.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I actually think the European project hasn't gone far enough yet. We need a full federal states of Europe in to the future. Those of us who lived pre Common Market days would hate to see Europe not achieve it true potential.

wretcheddomain

Rothmans wrote: »

It's a bit ridiculous asking would we leave the EU, but to completely disregard the primary reason why the EU was formed in the first place though.

You've missed the point. The point of this debate is meant to focus on the formation of a political élite who, year on year, are absorbing yet more powers that curb away at our sovereignty.

The point of the example is to assume economic stability for one moment - and focus on this encroachment and whether or not people are satisfied with it.

Rothmans

STEINBERG wrote: »

why do you think that all that trade would be cut off? of course it would''nt people seem to think that because we are part of the EU that it is like some special club where we cant do anything outside of it.... complete bull... if anything international trade and investment would increase

Of course it would.

The EU has essentially brought down all barriers to trade among member states. If we were to succeed, then those barriers would be brought back up again, making trade with Ireland nonviable among many EU member states.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

STEINBERG wrote: »

why do you think that all that trade would be cut off? of course it would''nt people seem to think that because we are part of the EU that it is like some special club where we cant do anything outside of it.... complete bull... if anything international trade and investment would increase

That's the most twisted and misinformed logic I have heard in a long time.

STEINBERG

longhalloween wrote: »

Why?

why? because we wouldnt be tied to the rules that the EU seem to like to empower on countries....... I would love to see how Ireland would have feared if we had not joined the EU... people seem to think that ohh it was great because of this that and the other,, but it seems this that and the other has this country and half its EU counterparts in finacial ruin.. but sure its all a good thing nontheless.. stop trying to pull a fast one.

we are better off out of the EU period

Rothmans

wretcheddomain wrote: »

You've missed the point. The point of this debate is meant to focus on the formation of a political élite who, year on year, are absorbing yet more powers that curb away at our sovereignty.

The point of the example is to assume economic stability for one moment - and focus on this encroachment and whether or not people are satisfied with it.

That makes no sense, you are completely disregarding the purpose of the 'European Economic Area'

Lou.m

No we would lose the right to do free trade in the Eurozone the markets would react badly to the uncertainty we would still have to pay back the guarantee etc. We would lose our currency and a new one would not have market confidence. We would lose the right to travel and work in EU countries. Our tourist industry would suffer. Many companies would leave as we would not be an EU country. We would lose the right to appeal to the EU court of justice and it is less corrupt than ours. We would have to resort to even more inter-governmentalism than we do now rather than supranationalism. Inter-governmentalism suits a small country less than supranationalism. We are not Norway we have no oil and anyway Norway had to implement most EU laws anyway to do business with them.

wretcheddomain

I feared this would happen - the focussing on economic arguments when the point of the debate is to discuss the viability or otherwise of the political union that's currently being played out.

As we've seen with the situation in Ukraine, the political union is becoming so strong that these élite are now determining a EU 'foreign policy'. I personally don't appreciate the concept nor do I think this trajectory is an appropriate one to take.

STEINBERG

Rothmans wrote: »

Of course it would.

The EU has essentially brought down all barriers to trade among member states. If we were to succeed, then those barriers would be brought back up again, making trade with Ireland nonviable among many EU member states.

Why? what purpose would that have? just because we would not be in the EU means nobody would trade with us? please man stop with the buffonery

longhalloween

STEINBERG wrote: »

why? because we wouldnt be tied to the rules that the EU seem to like to empower on countries....... I would love to see how Ireland would have feared if we had not joined the EU... people seem to think that ohh it was great because of this that and the other,, but it seems this that and the other has this country and half its EU counterparts in finacial ruin.. but sure its all a good thing nontheless.. stop trying to pull a fast one.

we are better off out of the EU period

Yeah, Bring back the Sugar Beet!

STEINBERG

longhalloween wrote: »

Yeah, Bring back the Sugar Beet!

such great insight into the discussion!! i almost feel sorry for you

riffmongous

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I feared this would happen - the focussing on economic arguments when the point of the debate is to discuss the viability or otherwise of the political union that's currently being played out.

As we've seen with the situation in Ukraine, the political union is becoming so strong that these élite are now determining a EU 'foreign policy'. I personally don't appreciate the concept nor do I think this trajectory is an appropriate one to take.

Out of interest who are the elite? Like can you post some names?

wretcheddomain

Rothmans wrote: »

That makes no sense, you are completely disregarding the purpose of the 'European Economic Area'

It's not disregarding it - it's trying to park it while discussing the political union aspects of the EU and its future trajectory.

If we get bogged down in the economics, which are no doubt important and worthwhile discussing, then we're diluting the discussion on the political aspect which seldom gets discussed in my view.

Out of interest who are the elite? Like can you post some names?

I refer to those such as the former Maoist Jose Manuel Barroso and figures such as Herman van Rompuy among others.

Rothmans

STEINBERG wrote: »

Why? what purpose would that have? just because we would not be in the EU means nobody would trade with us? please man stop with the buffonery

Its clear enough that you don't know what you're talking about.

Artful_Badger

We're too far in to back out now.

STEINBERG

Rothmans wrote: »

Its clear enough that you don't know what you're talking about.

so would you clear to point out why?

Nodin

Rothmans wrote: »

Things are finally starting to look up, so lets leave the EU and potentially cut off a significant bulk of international trade and foreign direct investment.

Makes sense

1 Hold Referendum
2 Leave EU
3 ????????????
4 Profit!!!!!!!!!!!

Rothmans

wretcheddomain wrote: »

It's not disregarding it - it's trying to park it while discussing the political union aspects of the EU and its future trajectory.

If we get bogged down in the economics, which are no doubt important and worthwhile discussing, then we're diluting the discussion on the political aspect which seldom gets discussed in my view.

Fair enough, but I don't want to be involved in this debate then.

Its like asking 'Should we join NATO, but completely disregard the effect it would have on our military'.

longhalloween

STEINBERG wrote: »

such great insight into the discussion!! i almost feel sorry for you

We're still waiting for some insight from you. You've about 10 comments in this thread and not one of them has any form of argument or fact.

wretcheddomain

Rothmans wrote: »

Fair enough, but I don't want to be involved in this debate then.

Its like asking 'Should we join NATO, but completely disregard the effect it would have on our military'.

It's not the same as that because joining NATO is a political manoeuvre in itself.

This debate is about whether the EU should become even worse (than NATO) in terms of its politicisation.

In other words, I could agree with every single economic argument you've put forth, but it doesn't change a single thing about the central debate I've tried to raise. They're two entirely separate questions i.e. you can have a successful economic zone without the unnecessary OTT political effects.

Rothmans

STEINBERG wrote: »

so would you clear to point out why?

Its nothing to do with countries wanting to trade with us, or picking on us because we leave the EU, as you seem to think. Its about significant customs and other duties being put on our produce thus making it impractical and nonviable to trade with Irish businesses, not to mention the disastrous knock-on effect that this would have on the many MNCs that have their European HQs in Ireland.

superglue

STEINBERG wrote: »

why? because we wouldnt be tied to the rules that the EU seem to like to empower on countries....... I would love to see how Ireland would have feared if we had not joined the EU... people seem to think that ohh it was great because of this that and the other,, but it seems this that and the other has this country and half its EU counterparts in finacial ruin.. but sure its all a good thing nontheless.. stop trying to pull a fast one.

we are better off out of the EU period

Placing the word "period" at the end of your claim doesn't substantiate anything...




FACT.

longhalloween

superglue wrote: »

Placing the word "period" at the end of your claim doesn't substantiate anything...


FACT.

Full stop?

Iwasfrozen

No i wouldn't vote to leave the EU tomorrow and actually I support the formation of a European confederation.

wretcheddomain

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

and actually I support the formation of a European confederation.

Well done on being the first person to address the question at hand - even though I disagree with it at least you answered it. :pac:

oldyouth

Nope, we've proven we can't govern ourselves without being regulated

dj jarvis

will all the idiots who think leaving the EU would be a plus for Ireland, please all gather at Dublin airport and feck off to a non EU country.

you have no idea what you are ****ing on about

CONVENIENTLY forgetting what state the country was in before the structural funds started to flow into the state , we had no roads , schools or industry to talk of no less than 30 years ago

I remember what it was like - it was a backward hole - you should check out the newsweek front cover that had a picture of a beggar on o connol bridge, we were the POOREST ECC nation. think Albania of the EEC

only reason we have investment into this country is a legacy of the cash that was pumped into it ( mainly by the Germans as a thank you for ruining Thatchers plans to stop German reunification )

but its normally the under 30's who dont remember what a kip this place was prior to EC membership who want to leave , after they have had their EU funded health care , free 3rd level ( subsidized by the EU ) and working in jobs that are only in the country becasue of our EU membership and the fact we speak English

Well , you can all fu2ck off , good luck to ya , leave your EU passport at the check in desk

clowns :mad:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Well done on being the first person to address the question at hand - even though I disagree with it at least you answered it. :pac:

Well I already stated a wish for a federal states of Europe! The only way forward. I have seen many polital experiments and conventions in my 70 years and the further development of a political union of Europe is the most exciting and encouraging I have yet encountered.

It seems over 80% are voting No anyway.

Cantremember

No. Thinking back to the poverty stricken priest ridden society we were there is no doubt that we are better off in the EU.

Stavros Murphy

Rothmans wrote: »

Its clear enough that you don't know what you're talking about.

I happen to fully agree with him. I'm guessing I've no idea either. The EU has been a disaster for Europe's economies, single currency is a failed experiment and ceding power to an unelected central bureaucracy is a recipe for long-term one-size-doesn't-fit-all decisions that are not in our best interests. How great has the EU and indeed the Euro been for Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland? Not as great as it has been for Germany, that's for sure.

MadYaker

Nodin wrote: »

1 Hold Referendum
2 Leave EU
3 ????????????
4 Profit!!!!!!!!!!!

There have been loads of these threads on boards and pretty much every argument saying we should leave boils down to this.

I haven't seen any coherent or logical fact based arguments that say we should leave and I don't think this thread is going to give us one.

dj jarvis

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I happen to fully agree with him. I'm guessing I've no idea either. The EU has been a disaster for Europe's economies, single currency is a failed experiment and ceding power to an unelected central bureaucracy is a recipe for long-term one-size-doesn't-fit-all decisions that are not in our best interests. How great has the EU and indeed the Euro been for Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland? Not as great as it has been for Germany, that's for sure.

its been a dream come true , you have never been to the above country's pre EU membership and the CASH that came with it

3 of the country's you mentioned JUST came out of military dictatorships
and we were in the throws of a near civil war

amazing how people forget what things used to be like

Manach

Given how utterly the political classes have sold the EU Dream and that they have funded their vision of society with EU funding, the logistical nightmare alone would preclude a move to another polity.

Sulla Felix

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Based on this, I think the European project has gone too far in every political respect; whether it comes to refusing to accept referenda results, installation of unelected politicians as leaders of Europe, gradual siphoning off democracy, and many other obvious but equally important shortcomings.

All other things being equal (assuming a normal economy etc.), would you relinquish membership of the EU if you had a referendum due to its encroaching political effects?

I'm a federalist. USE here we come!

minidazzler

I'm very Pro-Europe. To the point where I would think going on the US model for Europe might be better over all. States rights but Federal control.

dj jarvis

minidazzler wrote: »

I'm very Pro-Europe. To the point where I would think going on the US model for Europe might be better over all. States rights but Federal control.

sure its as good as that now anyway

MRnotlob606

it would be quite different for us to go it alone, we don't really have any natural resources of our own like the norwegians have with their oil. Most multinationals come here because we use the euro and see us a gateway to europe
Ireland without the EU would be quite backward and we would have ****e infrastructure

MadYaker

Gotta laugh at people blaming our economic woes on the E.U, the people who bailed us out when we completely failed at managing our own banking system.

The only people who think it would be a good idea to leave are the ones that have no idea what their talking about.