60,000 Building Jobs, 400,000 empty houses.

donegal__road · 24-02-2014 12:13PM

drumswan wrote: »

Those people already have housing.

There are a lot of young people in Donegal that would stay if they could. There are a lot of vacant properties in Donegal. If there was more employment opportunities, some of these properties could be let out, perhaps with the option to buy if there price were right down the line.

If there is a shortage of housing in Dublin, and a glut of vacant houses in the likes of Leitrim and Donegal (coupled with high unemployment)... wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone by attracting industry to rural Ireland.

*I dont buy this 'people dont want to live there'. I know many people from abroad working in Donegal who are planning to stay here.

drumswan · 24-02-2014 12:15PM

donegal__road wrote: »

There are a lot of young people in Donegal that would stay if they could. There are a lot of vacant properties in Donegal. If there was more employment opportunities, some of these properties could be let out, perhaps with the option to buy if there price were right down the line.

If there is a shortage of housing in Dublin, and a glut of vacant houses in the likes of Leitrim and Donegal (coupled with high unemployment)... wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone by attracting industry to rural Ireland.

*I dont buy this 'people dont want to live there'. I know many people from abroad working in Donegal who are planning to stay here.

Our most vibrant sectors are tech, pharma and finance. You are not going to attract highly qualified 20 and 30-somethings to live in Leitrim, there is nothing there.

everdead.ie · 24-02-2014 12:17PM

drumswan wrote: »

Our most vibrant sectors are tech, pharma and finance. You are not going to attract highly qualified 20 and 30-somethings to live in Leitrim, there is nothing there.

I don't think that is the major problem if the jobs are there they will be filled the major issue is that companies come to Dublin a lot because it's fashionable. Every tech company wants to be a part of the "Silicon Docks" similarily in Finance they want to be part of the IFSC.

syklops · 24-02-2014 12:19PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

could we not improve transport links with some of commuter belt towns and finish off those houses?

Funnilly enough I just moved to the far end of the green line. Forget ghost estates, there are ghost luas stops which were finished before the development they were next to were finished. Said developments remain unfinished and so the luas stops are unused. Even where I am there is the complex I am in and a load of waste ground. Its a real waste, to have a luas stop that is basically in the country side servicing one apartment complex.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 24-02-2014 12:21PM

donegal__road wrote: »

If there is a shortage of housing in Dublin, and a glut of vacant houses in the likes of Leitrim and Donegal (coupled with high unemployment)... wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone by attracting industry to rural Ireland.

*I dont buy this 'people dont want to live there'. I know many people from abroad working in Donegal who are planning to stay here.

Firstly it would be nigh on impossible to get major industries to move to many parts of rural Ireland because of the poor infrastructure (lousy broadband, uncertainty of the security of electricity supplies, the cost of transportation etc)
And believe it or not generally, people don't want to live there.

chopper6 · 24-02-2014 12:23PM

Make no mistake...the Govt have learned exactly nothing from the past ten years.

They are trying to start another construction boom so they can rake in stamp duty and give us a bone that they will lower taxes.

All they need is for the banks to start lending recklessly once again and we'll be right back to the start.

Of course,Irish people being Irish they will welcome this new "boom" and rush out to get back on the "property ladder" and people like Eddie Hobbes will appear urging us to "leverage equity" to purchase apartments in Cape Verde.

WHEN it all goes wrong again in maybe ten years time,Ireland will be left without an arse in it's trousers and we wont be getting anymore bailouts.

drumswan · 24-02-2014 12:25PM

everdead.ie wrote: »

I don't think that is the major problem if the jobs are there they will be filled the major issue is that companies come to Dublin a lot because it's fashionable. Every tech company wants to be a part of the "Silicon Docks" similarily in Finance they want to be part of the IFSC.

Its nothing to do with being 'fashionable'. Highly qualified, mobile young people are not going to move to Leitrim - they expect access to the arts, theater, large sporting events, excellent restaurants, modern cinema options, gastropubs, high end broadband links, quality post graduate education options, public transport, excellent schools and healthcare for their families, the list goes on and on. Dormer towns in the middle of nowhere hold zero attraction for people.

The reality is that Dublin is in competition with the likes of London to attract the best people, locating in Leitrim would be business suicide.

donegal__road · 24-02-2014 12:26PM

drumswan wrote: »

Our most vibrant sectors are tech, pharma and finance. You are not going to attract highly qualified 20 and 30-somethings to live in Leitrim, there is nothing there.

plenty of qualified 20 and 30 year olds were attracted to Leitrim when MBNA was at its peak. Carrick on Shannon was a thriving town... and there was plenty to do. The pubs and restaurants were busy most nights of the week, and on weekends you were only 45 minutes from Donegal, or you could go down the Shannon on a houseboat for the weekend. Unfortunately, MBNA scaled down its workforce from 1000 in 2011, to 250 today.

Daith · 24-02-2014 12:26PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Many of the empty homes in this country are shoebox apartments , many others are in places people do not want to live.

Just on this. There's nothing wrong with building apartments (I know you didn't say this).

The problem is generally when developers throw more apartments into the complex and reduce the sq footage.

chopper6 · 24-02-2014 12:28PM

donegal__road wrote: »

plenty of qualified 20 and 30 year olds were attracted to Leitrim when MBNA was at its peak. Carrick on Shannon was a thriving town... and there was plenty to do. The pubs and restaurants were busy most nights of the week, and on weekends you were only 45 minutes from Donegal, or you could go down the Shannon on a houseboat for the weekend. Unfortunately, MBNA scaled down its workforce from 1000 in 2011, to 250 today.

So there was a "gold rush" and now it's a ghost town?

That's the problem with relying solely on foreign multinationals.

noodler · 24-02-2014 12:30PM

http://www.thejournal.ie/14-5-per-cent-of-dwellings-in-ireland-vacant-in-census-2011-400231-Mar2012/

289,000 vacant according to the last census in 2011.

EDIT: 59,000 are holiday homes.

donegal__road · 24-02-2014 12:43PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Firstly it would be nigh on impossible to get major industries to move to many parts of rural Ireland because of the poor infrastructure (lousy broadband, uncertainty of the security of electricity supplies, the cost of transportation etc)
And believe it or not generally, people don't want to live there.

First of all, e-fibre has been available since mid December, so broadband has been greatly improved. I can see how the infrastructure would be an issue for manufacturing industry, but for tech companies I cant see why it would be an issue. I don't know what you mean by security of electrical supplies.

Prumerica, Abbott, Medisize, Pacificare, and others have been established in Donegal for the last 10 - 15+ years, and despite the sizing down of Abbott, all are still going strong.

I agree that there are parts of rural Ireland that are not suitable for larger industries to attempt to set up.

donegal__road · 24-02-2014 12:46PM

chopper6 wrote: »

So there was a "gold rush" and now it's a ghost town?

That's the problem with relying solely on foreign multinationals.

yep, Carrick on Shannon did depend on a single multinational which is a mistake... but it didn't deter many young qualified people to move to Leitrim, which was my point.

Victor · 24-02-2014 12:50PM

donegal__road wrote: »

move the jobs to Leitrim and Ballybofey.

Many employers have no interest in such locations - the employee skills base is inadequate in width and depth and adequate transport links aren't there. If you are making pharmaceutical or electronic products, you need access to ports and airports, a large number of support services, reliable water and energy and so on. Tell me, are you going to get these in towns of population 485 and 4,852 or somewhere with population 1,273,069? Tell me how many international air routes serve Leitrim?

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Empty home does not equal empty houses.
Many of the empty homes in this country are shoebox apartments , many others are in places people do not want to live.

Whatever about the pejorative 'shoebox' comment, many people want to live in apartments. Many people don't have the want, need or ability to have a large property or to maintain an individual house.

everdead.ie wrote: »

I don't think that is the major problem if the jobs are there they will be filled the major issue is that companies come to Dublin a lot because it's fashionable.

Fashionable? People have been moving to towns and cities for the last 12,000-15,000 years. You know, its been happening as long as civilisation has existed. Indeed, it is the very definition of civilisation.

Every tech company wants to be a part of the "Silicon Docks" similarily in Finance they want to be part of the IFSC.

Not quite. They want access to the variety of service and employees.

chopper6 wrote: »

Make no mistake...the Govt have learned exactly nothing from the past ten years.

They are trying to start another construction boom so they can rake in stamp duty and give us a bone that they will lower taxes.

No, they want to return the construction industry to normality.

All they need is for the banks to start lending recklessly once again and we'll be right back to the start.

No, they want the banks to start lending again.

donegal__road wrote: »

plenty of qualified 20 and 30 year olds were attracted to Leitrim when MBNA was at its peak. Carrick on Shannon was a thriving town... and there was plenty to do. The pubs and restaurants were busy most nights of the week, and on weekends you were only 45 minutes from Donegal, or you could go down the Shannon on a houseboat for the weekend. Unfortunately, MBNA scaled down its workforce from 1000 in 2011, to 250 today.

And if industrial policy for the last 50 years promoted clusters of employers - 5 factories in one town instead of one factory in each of 5 towns - then such changes wouldn't be quite so painful.

donegal__road wrote: »

First of all, e-fibre has been available

In some places: http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

I can see how the infrastructure would be an issue for manufacturing industry, but for tech companies I cant see why it would be an issue.

I don't know what you mean by security of electrical supplies.

Energy security means that if one energy supply is disrupted, that you have another supply to cover the gap. towns that have only one supply have no appeal for medium and large businesses.

I don't know

Exactly.

But this is After Hours and all sorts (not pointing at you) will put their mouths in gear without turning on their brains first.

Mr.McLovin · 24-02-2014 12:56PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Yeah, 'cos we all know that construction workers and professionals only build houses.:rolleyes:

The construction industry grew into a huge beast that ultimately destroyed the economy, constituting about 30% of GDP at the height of the 'boom'. Residential property was a large element of this.

A 'healthy' economy has construction at about 15% of GDP - at present it's in low single figures. There is a bigger picture here in terms of construction activity reflecting general economic recovery and supporting its activities - we will still need pharma plants, warehouses, IT facilities, data centers.....

just under 6% last I heard

There is a dire need for houses in desirable parts of the country. No point harping on about the vacant houses down in Leitrim ect.

NAMA may or may not have a lot of house in desirable areas but what they do have I'm betting is plots of land in these areas which they are sitting on that could be redeveloped or rezone for residential use which there is a pent up demand for.

chopper6 · 24-02-2014 01:09PM

donegal__road wrote: »

yep, Carrick on Shannon did depend on a single multinational which is a mistake... but it didn't deter many young qualified people to move to Leitrim, which was my point.

Are they still there?

Woofstuff · 24-02-2014 01:14PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

on one hand we have the Govt planning major drive to create 60,000 construction jobs

Is it mostly a case of saving 60000 jobs rather than creating new ones?

donegal__road · 24-02-2014 02:03PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Are they still there?

probably not, when MBNA scaled down they shed 750 jobs...so

anncoates · 24-02-2014 02:09PM

I would assume a large proportion of the vacant properties are either unfit for habitation or won't ever sell because of other reasons like unfinished estates, isolated locations etc.

Simply wanting the construction industry to return to a normal level and banks to start (realistic, stress-tested) lending again, isn't being a bubble pimp.

WilyCoyote · 24-02-2014 02:17PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

It ain't that hard.

http://hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/hank_rabe/2006/sep30/69.jpg

The biggest basement in the world.

Oops, it IS the world!

Santa Cruz · 24-02-2014 02:18PM

Valetta wrote: »

How do you propose to move the empty houses from Leitrim and Ballybofey to Dublin and Cork?

Beam it Scotty Beam it

Och Captain you know the transporter only operates on humans not buildings

chopper6 · 24-02-2014 02:36PM

Victor wrote: »

No, they want to return the construction industry to normality.

.

Building what,exactly?

Shopping centres in Longford that nobody goes to or fresh blocks or wretchedly built apartments beside the existing blocks of wretchedly built apartments?

WilyCoyote · 24-02-2014 02:39PM

To add to Dravokivich's post ........ http://hankstruckpictures.com/pix/tr...6/sep30/69.jpg

a slightly older house with more modern moving techniques:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/4342921

Just watch the phone wires.

Menas · 24-02-2014 02:40PM

donegal__road wrote: »

probably not, when MBNA scaled down they shed 750 jobs...so

Most of those jobs were low end call center jobs ?

donegal__road · 24-02-2014 02:46PM

Victor wrote: »

Many employers have no interest in such locations - the employee skills base is inadequate in width and depth and adequate transport links aren't there. If you are making pharmaceutical or electronic products, you need access to ports and airports, a large number of support services, reliable water and energy and so on. Tell me, are you going to get these in towns of population 485 and 4,852 or somewhere with population 1,273,069? Tell me how many international air routes serve Leitrim?

Whatever about the pejorative 'shoebox' comment, many people want to live in apartments. Many people don't have the want, need or ability to have a large property or to maintain an individual house.

Fashionable? People have been moving to towns and cities for the last 12,000-15,000 years. You know, its been happening as long as civilisation has existed. Indeed, it is the very definition of civilisation.
Not quite. They want access to the variety of service and employees.

No, they want to return the construction industry to normality.

No, they want the banks to start lending again.

And if industrial policy for the last 50 years promoted clusters of employers - 5 factories in one town instead of one factory in each of 5 towns - then such changes wouldn't be quite so painful.

In some places: http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

Energy security means that if one energy supply is disrupted, that you have another supply to cover the gap. towns that have only one supply have no appeal for medium and large businesses.

Exactly. But this is After Hours and all sorts (not pointing at you) will put their mouths in gear without turning on their brains first.

Abbott in Donegal have been in operation approx 30 years. They make pharmaceuticals... and they have stayed in operation in Donegal despite Donegal's proximity to the airport in Dublin, and the fact that we haven't had a rail service since 1950 odd.

The nearest international airport to Leitrim is Knock. That said, I know a pretty famous Irish musician who decided on buying his home in Leitrim as opposed to Donegal because Leitrim was closer to Dublin airport, he would travel out of the country almost every week.

*those companies I mentioned earlier have their own back-up electricity supply.

.

Jonny Blaze · 24-02-2014 03:00PM

Valetta wrote: »

How do you propose to move the empty houses from Leitrim and Ballybofey to Dublin and Cork?

Use some of the 60,000 builders to transport them?

cabledude · 24-02-2014 08:36PM

donegal__road wrote: »

Abbott in Donegal have been in operation approx 30 years. They make pharmaceuticals... and they have stayed in operation in Donegal despite Donegal's proximity to the airport in Dublin, and the fact that we haven't had a rail service since 1950 odd.

The nearest international airport to Leitrim is Knock. That said, I know a pretty famous Irish musician who decided on buying his home in Leitrim as opposed to Donegal because Leitrim was closer to Dublin airport, he would travel out of the country almost every week.

*those companies I mentioned earlier have their own back-up electricity supply.

.

You can add MSD in Ballydine, Clonmel to that. No port. Nearest airport toss between Cork and Shannon. Both 1 hr + away. In operation since the 1970's

awec · 25-02-2014 03:05AM

It is easier to attract talent to live in a major city than in Leitrim.

There is a need for housing in Dublin because that's where the jobs are, and that's where the jobs are because of the infrastructure and ease of attracting people to live there.

SpaceTime · 25-02-2014 03:07AM

Biggest issues for location of a major business are :

1) Access to a pool of graduates and a university - Typically means Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick are prime locations.

2) You need a cluster of businesses as that's essential to attract a pool of graduates and skilled people and have services.
You also don't want to be in some remote rural area where you're reliant on a single service provider as it drives costs up.

3) Serious airport and port facilities - tiny regional airports often don't cut it, especially if they can't land normal sized cargo planes and have no access to freight forwarding services like UPS, DHL, FedEx etc. Lack of regular links to major hubs like Heathrow or Charles de Gaulle etc is a major problem too.

4) Motorway access can be useful.

5) Telecommunications infrastructure - This means really serious backbone access for international connectivity.

6) Electricity and natural gas - local network has to be big enough to reliably support a business.

7) You need accommodation, facilities, attractive places likely to bring in your staff. That means things like access to shopping, schools, universities, leisure facilities, easy access to airports etc.

8) Natural gas is a HUGE deal for most manufacturing / biotech / pharma plants.

Without all those things you aren't going to locate.
So, realistically you can't just put huge industries or huge service companies into the middle of nowhere just because there are some empty houses there!
We have put the cart before the horse when it comes to building housing stock. It should have been much more concentrated in the cities.

MadsL · 25-02-2014 04:18AM

Daith wrote: »

I think the argument is that the 400,000 aren't places people would want to live with no local facilities around etc.

The irony of people wanting one off houses and then complaining about the lack of facilities is not lost on me.

mandrake04 wrote: »

Yeah instead of producing something useful and exporting it we built houses and tried to sell them to each other, for good measure we even imported shoe scrapings to help us build them.

Says the lad emigrated to Oz. :rolleyes:

60,000 Building Jobs, 400,000 empty houses.

Comments