60,000 Building Jobs, 400,000 empty houses.

drunkmonkey

These 2 articles conflicted each other this morning, on one hand we have the Govt planning major drive to create 60,000 construction jobs http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-planning-major-drive-to-create-60000-construction-jobs-623414.html
And then we have the Guardian exposing the scandal of 11 million unoccupied homes with 400,000 of them in Ireland http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/23/europe-11m-empty-properties-enough-house-homeless-continent-twice?CMP=fb_gu

I'm not sure why we need 60,000 builders if we've 400,000 empty houses, isn't this what got us into the mess in the first place?

Daith

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not sure why we need 60,000 builders if we've 400,000 empty houses, isn't this what got us into the mess in the first place?

I think the argument is that the 400,000 aren't places people would want to live with no local facilities around etc.

Akrasia

It's stupid really.

On one hand we have NAMA sitting on tens of thousands of vacant properties trying to artificially prop up property values, and on the other hand we have the government saying we need to build more houses because rents are too high

NAMA should be forced to publish a full list of every property that they own

Gatling

I seriously doubt theres 400,000 empty /unoccupied houses or other here ,

mandrake04

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'm not sure why we need 60,000 builders if we've 400,000 empty houses, isn't this what got us into the mess in the first place?

Yeah instead of producing something useful and exporting it we built houses and tried to sell them to each other, for good measure we even imported shoe scrapings to help us build them.

Frank Lee Midere

Gatling wrote: »

I seriously doubt theres 400,000 empty /unoccupied houses or other here ,

Probably 2nd homes in the country.

Valetta

How do you propose to move the empty houses from Leitrim and Ballybofey to Dublin and Cork?

kneemos

mandrake04 wrote: »

Yeah instead of producing something useful and exporting it we built houses and tried to sell them to each other, for good measure we even imported shoe scrapings to help us build them.

Oh dear.

Macy0161

Gatling wrote: »

I seriously doubt theres 400,000 empty /unoccupied houses or other here ,

It would be interesting to see the source of the figures, and whether it includes holiday homes.

drunkmonkey

Macy0161 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the source of the figures, and whether it includes holiday homes.

It does, but how many many are holiday homes, 50,000?

Pinch Flat

Yeah, 'cos we all know that construction workers and professionals only build houses.:rolleyes:

The construction industry grew into a huge beast that ultimately destroyed the economy, constituting about 30% of GDP at the height of the 'boom'. Residential property was a large element of this.

A 'healthy' economy has construction at about 15% of GDP - at present it's in low single figures. There is a bigger picture here in terms of construction activity reflecting general economic recovery and supporting its activities - we will still need pharma plants, warehouses, IT facilities, data centers.....

Pinch Flat

Akrasia wrote: »

NAMA should be forced to publish a full list of every property that they own

What, you mean like this one?

http://www.nama.ie/about-our-work/properties-enforced/properties-subject-to-enforcement-action/

Dravokivich

Valetta wrote: »

How do you propose to move the empty houses from Leitrim and Ballybofey to Dublin and Cork?

It ain't that hard.

http://hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/hank_rabe/2006/sep30/69.jpg

SEPT 23 1989

could we not improve transport links with some of commuter belt towns and finish off those houses?

cabledude

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

could we not improve transport links with some of commuter belt towns and finish off those houses?

Build motorways and LUAS systems in Leitrim? No.

Pinch Flat

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

could we not improve transport links with some of commuter belt towns and finish off those houses?

Maybe in some cases, but a lot of the so called ghost estates are there for a reason - built in total isolation and out of context with the local community they've been bolted onto.

In a lot of cases though the issues are more serious and deep rooted and the houses are probably best demolished and land returned to another use - houses are either of inferior build quality, built on flood plains, riddled with pyrite etc.

Dravokivich

Macy0161 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see the source of the figures, and whether it includes holiday homes.

It's stated in the image displaying the numbers throughout Europe.

"Ireland: Irish National Institute of Regional and Spacial Analysis (NIRSA) 2012"

keithclancy

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Maybe in some cases, but a lot of the so called ghost estates are there for a reason - built in total isolation and out of context with the local community they've been bolted onto.

In a lot of cases though the issues are more serious and deep rooted and the houses are probably best demolished and land returned to another use - houses are either of inferior build quality, built on flood plains, riddled with pyrite etc.

+10000 ...

I didn't see one decent new build in Ireland, they were all thrown up poorly in terrible places.

eamonnq

Pinch Flat wrote: »

What, you mean like this one?

http://www.nama.ie/about-our-work/properties-enforced/properties-subject-to-enforcement-action/

Yeah, they should be made publish that or at least put in on a website or something!!

keithclancy

eamonnq wrote: »

Yeah, they should be made publish that or at least put in on a website or something!!

I guess you should update that internet you got on DVD ... its there for sure.

Menas

As said earlier there are lots of construction jobs that do not involve residential houses.
There is still a need for class a office accommodation in Dublin.
There is plenty of storm damage that needs to be repaired and perhaps even something that could help limit the damage of future storms.
More work on the roads, tackle the still existing accident and traffic blackspots.

The best time to spend this money is now IMO.

drunkmonkey

Pinch Flat wrote: »

What, you mean like this one?

http://www.nama.ie/about-our-work/properties-enforced/properties-subject-to-enforcement-action/

That's not a complete list of property Nama control.

Pinch Flat

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's not a complete list of property Nama control.

From their website

"If however you believe that information contained in this document is inaccurate or misleading please contact NAMA at properties@nama.ie and NAMA will correct or clarify the information as necessary."

Why not drop them a line?

donegal__road

Valetta wrote: »

How do you propose to move the empty houses from Leitrim and Ballybofey to Dublin and Cork?

move the jobs to Leitrim and Ballybofey.

everdead.ie

The location and type of homes empty as well as I'm sure there are way more than 50,000 holiday homes in Ireland.

Big issue is family homes around cities instead of one and two bed flats. Ghosts estates are unlikely to be filled in our lifetime it is very difficult to get companies to relocate to more remote areas where housing stock is.

drunkmonkey

Pinch Flat wrote: »

From their website

"If however you believe that information contained in this document is inaccurate or misleading please contact NAMA at properties@nama.ie and NAMA will correct or clarify the information as necessary."

Your confusing different things ,That is not a list all of Nama's properties. There's are only 760 residential properties listed. There the ones subject to enforcement that's all. There is no complete list available to the general public.

drumswan

donegal__road wrote: »

move the jobs to Leitrim and Ballybofey.

People dont want to live there.

donegal__road

List of NAMA properties for sale from February 2011 - May 2013. There have been no updates to this site since May 1st 2013. The page also contains updated Nama Enforcemnet lists, and Nama Foreclosure lists.

donegal__road

drumswan wrote: »

People dont want to live there.

People that live there already could do with employment, that was my point.

drumswan

donegal__road wrote: »

People that live there already could do with employment, that was my point.

Those people already have housing.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

drunkmonkey wrote: »

These 2 articles conflicted each other this morning, on one hand we have the Govt planning major drive to create 60,000 construction jobs http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-planning-major-drive-to-create-60000-construction-jobs-623414.html
And then we have the Guardian exposing the scandal of 11 million unoccupied homes with 400,000 of them in Ireland http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/23/europe-11m-empty-properties-enough-house-homeless-continent-twice?CMP=fb_gu

I'm not sure why we need 60,000 builders if we've 400,000 empty houses, isn't this what got us into the mess in the first place?

Empty home does not equal empty houses.
Many of the empty homes in this country are shoebox apartments , many others are in places people do not want to live.

donegal__road

drumswan wrote: »

Those people already have housing.

There are a lot of young people in Donegal that would stay if they could. There are a lot of vacant properties in Donegal. If there was more employment opportunities, some of these properties could be let out, perhaps with the option to buy if there price were right down the line.

If there is a shortage of housing in Dublin, and a glut of vacant houses in the likes of Leitrim and Donegal (coupled with high unemployment)... wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone by attracting industry to rural Ireland.

*I dont buy this 'people dont want to live there'. I know many people from abroad working in Donegal who are planning to stay here.

drumswan

donegal__road wrote: »

There are a lot of young people in Donegal that would stay if they could. There are a lot of vacant properties in Donegal. If there was more employment opportunities, some of these properties could be let out, perhaps with the option to buy if there price were right down the line.

If there is a shortage of housing in Dublin, and a glut of vacant houses in the likes of Leitrim and Donegal (coupled with high unemployment)... wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone by attracting industry to rural Ireland.

*I dont buy this 'people dont want to live there'. I know many people from abroad working in Donegal who are planning to stay here.

Our most vibrant sectors are tech, pharma and finance. You are not going to attract highly qualified 20 and 30-somethings to live in Leitrim, there is nothing there.

everdead.ie

drumswan wrote: »

Our most vibrant sectors are tech, pharma and finance. You are not going to attract highly qualified 20 and 30-somethings to live in Leitrim, there is nothing there.

I don't think that is the major problem if the jobs are there they will be filled the major issue is that companies come to Dublin a lot because it's fashionable. Every tech company wants to be a part of the "Silicon Docks" similarily in Finance they want to be part of the IFSC.

syklops

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

could we not improve transport links with some of commuter belt towns and finish off those houses?

Funnilly enough I just moved to the far end of the green line. Forget ghost estates, there are ghost luas stops which were finished before the development they were next to were finished. Said developments remain unfinished and so the luas stops are unused. Even where I am there is the complex I am in and a load of waste ground. Its a real waste, to have a luas stop that is basically in the country side servicing one apartment complex.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

donegal__road wrote: »

If there is a shortage of housing in Dublin, and a glut of vacant houses in the likes of Leitrim and Donegal (coupled with high unemployment)... wouldn't we be killing two birds with one stone by attracting industry to rural Ireland.

*I dont buy this 'people dont want to live there'. I know many people from abroad working in Donegal who are planning to stay here.

Firstly it would be nigh on impossible to get major industries to move to many parts of rural Ireland because of the poor infrastructure (lousy broadband, uncertainty of the security of electricity supplies, the cost of transportation etc)
And believe it or not generally, people don't want to live there.

chopper6

Make no mistake...the Govt have learned exactly nothing from the past ten years.

They are trying to start another construction boom so they can rake in stamp duty and give us a bone that they will lower taxes.

All they need is for the banks to start lending recklessly once again and we'll be right back to the start.

Of course,Irish people being Irish they will welcome this new "boom" and rush out to get back on the "property ladder" and people like Eddie Hobbes will appear urging us to "leverage equity" to purchase apartments in Cape Verde.

WHEN it all goes wrong again in maybe ten years time,Ireland will be left without an arse in it's trousers and we wont be getting anymore bailouts.

drumswan

everdead.ie wrote: »

I don't think that is the major problem if the jobs are there they will be filled the major issue is that companies come to Dublin a lot because it's fashionable. Every tech company wants to be a part of the "Silicon Docks" similarily in Finance they want to be part of the IFSC.

Its nothing to do with being 'fashionable'. Highly qualified, mobile young people are not going to move to Leitrim - they expect access to the arts, theater, large sporting events, excellent restaurants, modern cinema options, gastropubs, high end broadband links, quality post graduate education options, public transport, excellent schools and healthcare for their families, the list goes on and on. Dormer towns in the middle of nowhere hold zero attraction for people.

The reality is that Dublin is in competition with the likes of London to attract the best people, locating in Leitrim would be business suicide.

donegal__road

drumswan wrote: »

Our most vibrant sectors are tech, pharma and finance. You are not going to attract highly qualified 20 and 30-somethings to live in Leitrim, there is nothing there.

plenty of qualified 20 and 30 year olds were attracted to Leitrim when MBNA was at its peak. Carrick on Shannon was a thriving town... and there was plenty to do. The pubs and restaurants were busy most nights of the week, and on weekends you were only 45 minutes from Donegal, or you could go down the Shannon on a houseboat for the weekend. Unfortunately, MBNA scaled down its workforce from 1000 in 2011, to 250 today.

Daith

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Many of the empty homes in this country are shoebox apartments , many others are in places people do not want to live.

Just on this. There's nothing wrong with building apartments (I know you didn't say this).

The problem is generally when developers throw more apartments into the complex and reduce the sq footage.

chopper6

donegal__road wrote: »

plenty of qualified 20 and 30 year olds were attracted to Leitrim when MBNA was at its peak. Carrick on Shannon was a thriving town... and there was plenty to do. The pubs and restaurants were busy most nights of the week, and on weekends you were only 45 minutes from Donegal, or you could go down the Shannon on a houseboat for the weekend. Unfortunately, MBNA scaled down its workforce from 1000 in 2011, to 250 today.

So there was a "gold rush" and now it's a ghost town?

That's the problem with relying solely on foreign multinationals.

noodler

http://www.thejournal.ie/14-5-per-cent-of-dwellings-in-ireland-vacant-in-census-2011-400231-Mar2012/

289,000 vacant according to the last census in 2011.

EDIT: 59,000 are holiday homes.

donegal__road

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Firstly it would be nigh on impossible to get major industries to move to many parts of rural Ireland because of the poor infrastructure (lousy broadband, uncertainty of the security of electricity supplies, the cost of transportation etc)
And believe it or not generally, people don't want to live there.

First of all, e-fibre has been available since mid December, so broadband has been greatly improved. I can see how the infrastructure would be an issue for manufacturing industry, but for tech companies I cant see why it would be an issue. I don't know what you mean by security of electrical supplies.

Prumerica, Abbott, Medisize, Pacificare, and others have been established in Donegal for the last 10 - 15+ years, and despite the sizing down of Abbott, all are still going strong.

I agree that there are parts of rural Ireland that are not suitable for larger industries to attempt to set up.

donegal__road

chopper6 wrote: »

So there was a "gold rush" and now it's a ghost town?

That's the problem with relying solely on foreign multinationals.

yep, Carrick on Shannon did depend on a single multinational which is a mistake... but it didn't deter many young qualified people to move to Leitrim, which was my point.

Victor

donegal__road wrote: »

move the jobs to Leitrim and Ballybofey.

Many employers have no interest in such locations - the employee skills base is inadequate in width and depth and adequate transport links aren't there. If you are making pharmaceutical or electronic products, you need access to ports and airports, a large number of support services, reliable water and energy and so on. Tell me, are you going to get these in towns of population 485 and 4,852 or somewhere with population 1,273,069? Tell me how many international air routes serve Leitrim?

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Empty home does not equal empty houses.
Many of the empty homes in this country are shoebox apartments , many others are in places people do not want to live.

Whatever about the pejorative 'shoebox' comment, many people want to live in apartments. Many people don't have the want, need or ability to have a large property or to maintain an individual house.

everdead.ie wrote: »

I don't think that is the major problem if the jobs are there they will be filled the major issue is that companies come to Dublin a lot because it's fashionable.

Fashionable? People have been moving to towns and cities for the last 12,000-15,000 years. You know, its been happening as long as civilisation has existed. Indeed, it is the very definition of civilisation.

Every tech company wants to be a part of the "Silicon Docks" similarily in Finance they want to be part of the IFSC.

Not quite. They want access to the variety of service and employees.

chopper6 wrote: »

Make no mistake...the Govt have learned exactly nothing from the past ten years.

They are trying to start another construction boom so they can rake in stamp duty and give us a bone that they will lower taxes.

No, they want to return the construction industry to normality.

All they need is for the banks to start lending recklessly once again and we'll be right back to the start.

No, they want the banks to start lending again.

donegal__road wrote: »

plenty of qualified 20 and 30 year olds were attracted to Leitrim when MBNA was at its peak. Carrick on Shannon was a thriving town... and there was plenty to do. The pubs and restaurants were busy most nights of the week, and on weekends you were only 45 minutes from Donegal, or you could go down the Shannon on a houseboat for the weekend. Unfortunately, MBNA scaled down its workforce from 1000 in 2011, to 250 today.

And if industrial policy for the last 50 years promoted clusters of employers - 5 factories in one town instead of one factory in each of 5 towns - then such changes wouldn't be quite so painful.

donegal__road wrote: »

First of all, e-fibre has been available

In some places: http://www.eircom.net/efibreinfo/map/

I can see how the infrastructure would be an issue for manufacturing industry, but for tech companies I cant see why it would be an issue.

I don't know what you mean by security of electrical supplies.

Energy security means that if one energy supply is disrupted, that you have another supply to cover the gap. towns that have only one supply have no appeal for medium and large businesses.

I don't know

Exactly. But this is After Hours and all sorts (not pointing at you) will put their mouths in gear without turning on their brains first.

Mr.McLovin

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Yeah, 'cos we all know that construction workers and professionals only build houses.:rolleyes:

The construction industry grew into a huge beast that ultimately destroyed the economy, constituting about 30% of GDP at the height of the 'boom'. Residential property was a large element of this.

A 'healthy' economy has construction at about 15% of GDP - at present it's in low single figures. There is a bigger picture here in terms of construction activity reflecting general economic recovery and supporting its activities - we will still need pharma plants, warehouses, IT facilities, data centers.....

just under 6% last I heard


There is a dire need for houses in desirable parts of the country. No point harping on about the vacant houses down in Leitrim ect.

NAMA may or may not have a lot of house in desirable areas but what they do have I'm betting is plots of land in these areas which they are sitting on that could be redeveloped or rezone for residential use which there is a pent up demand for.

chopper6

donegal__road wrote: »

yep, Carrick on Shannon did depend on a single multinational which is a mistake... but it didn't deter many young qualified people to move to Leitrim, which was my point.

Are they still there?

Woofstuff

drunkmonkey wrote: »

on one hand we have the Govt planning major drive to create 60,000 construction jobs

Is it mostly a case of saving 60000 jobs rather than creating new ones?

donegal__road

chopper6 wrote: »

Are they still there?

probably not, when MBNA scaled down they shed 750 jobs...so

anncoates

I would assume a large proportion of the vacant properties are either unfit for habitation or won't ever sell because of other reasons like unfinished estates, isolated locations etc.

Simply wanting the construction industry to return to a normal level and banks to start (realistic, stress-tested) lending again, isn't being a bubble pimp.

WilyCoyote

Dravokivich wrote: »

It ain't that hard.

http://hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/hank_rabe/2006/sep30/69.jpg

The biggest basement in the world.





Oops, it IS the world!