Stupid ads about how wonderful alcohol is

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 11:35AM

seanie_c wrote: »

Can you list 1 benefit to society?

There would be a few when consumed in moderation. It's the latter that seems to be the Irish problem. And a recent one at that. Contrary to the popular stereotype the Irish weren't big drinkers compared to the rest of Europe. That has increased in the last decade or so to where we do have a problem in some sections of society. The French, Spanish, Italians for example, consume as much if not more on a daily basis, yet you see very few fall down roaring drunks and fights and the like after chucking out time on the streets of Rome, Madrid or Paris. I'm quite sure any readers living or having lived in such cultures will back this up. It's our (recent) attitude to alcohol that is far more the problem than alcohol itself.

Benefits in moderation? Social lubrication and health* would be two above and beyond employment in it's production and supply, from grape or grain to glass.

*the health benefits of moderate alcohol consumption are a given at this stage, but if someone wants to be pedantic I can rattle up enough scientific links to have googles servers groaning.

Dravokivich · 25-11-2013 11:37AM

seanie_c wrote: »

How many of these cost the state €3.7 Bln to address?
The cost is the issue.

You could say sugar has impact on health of people but I doubt it's anywhere near €3.7 Bln annually.

You certainly won't see people fighting with each other, causing criminal damage to property after eating mars bars or drinking tea.

Or do you think i'm still talking mumbo jumbo?

They'd still do it without alcohol. Your issue there is with mobs.

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 11:37AM

Xeyn wrote: »

I dont think it would do any harm if alcoholic adverts were banned.
I think sensible drinkers arent overly influenced by ads.

And you think insensible addict drinkers would be?

bnt · 25-11-2013 11:40AM

I've been in Ireland for 14 years now, and I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked "do you drink?". If I answer "yes", the assumption is that I regularly get drunk. From that, it appears to me that my only options are teetotalism and alcoholism. Just last week I declined an invitation to "get locked" and had to explain that while I enjoy a good drink, I don't like being drunk, and I definitely do not like hangovers. I'm able to drink in a way that avoids both those problems.

So ads like the kind you see on TV don't offend me, since they appeal to my kind of drinker: the kind who can sip a good Whiskey or Cognac in the company of friends, enjoying how a little alcohol eases the flow of a conversation. It's a romantic, grown-up vision, and that's what sells product.

It's also an "aspirational" vision: don't you want to be that kind of person, the kind who drinks purely for enjoyment, avoiding the consequences of alcohol abuse? That, in my view, is the second "product" that the ads are selling: purely social, moderate drinking. Drink-related problems are not romantic.

Xeyn · 25-11-2013 11:40AM

Wibbs wrote: »

*the health benefits of moderate alcohol consumption are a given at this stage, but if someone wants to be pedantic I can rattle up enough scientific links to have googles servers groaning.

Pubmed only please.

Xeyn · 25-11-2013 11:43AM

Wibbs wrote: »

And you think insensible addict drinkers would be?

Yes, I think young people are inevitably not sensible as a group (with exceptions) and are easily influenced.

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 11:54AM

Xeyn wrote: »

Pubmed only please.

Hang on...

Very quick google of course and luckily one site had many links, but all of the below are based on actual studies with cited references. No daily fail links.

Depression
Cancers(and a few other links within

Cel aging

Dementia

Blindess

Stroke damage

Lung cancer risk

Liver damage. Yea, there's a turnup for the books.

Type 2 diabetes may be another

Prostate cancer(can halve the risk)

And since you wanted pubmed

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 11:56AM

Xeyn wrote: »

Yes, I think young people are inevitably not sensible as a group (with exceptions) and are easily influenced.

Well since many young(and older) people also smoke marijuana and I can't recall an add for that stuff...

For me banning advertising is one of those ideas that governments favour as it looks like they're doing something, but it's actual benefits are much harder to gauge.

oceanman · 25-11-2013 11:56AM

Davelarson wrote: »

While I do think seanie_c is going a bit Maude Flanders on us, I remember teaching English to a class of foreign students. As I recall there was Japanese, Koreans, Italians, Spanish, Saudis, and few others. I asked them do they think Irish people drink too much and everyone of them said yes.

who gives a toss!...we are not living our lives to suit people in other countries....we live of lives to please ourselves!!

seanie_c · 25-11-2013 11:56AM

Wibbs wrote: »

There would be a few when consumed in moderation. It's the latter that seems to be the Irish problem. And a recent one at that. Contrary to the popular stereotype the Irish weren't big drinkers compared to the rest of Europe. That has increased in the last decade or so to where we do have a problem in some sections of society. The French, Spanish, Italians for example, consume as much if not more on a daily basis, yet you see very few fall down roaring drunks and fights and the like after chucking out time on the streets of Rome, Madrid or Paris. I'm quite sure any readers living or having lived in such cultures will back this up. It's our (recent) attitude to alcohol that is far more the problem than alcohol itself.

Ireland has a culture of binge drinking.. The French, Italians and Spaniards have social gatherings where there's a combination of food and drink, not just drink itself.

Xeyn · 25-11-2013 11:58AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Hang on...

Very quick google of course and luckily one site had many links, but all of the below are based on actual studies with cited references. No daily fail links.

Depression
Cancers(and a few other links within

Cel aging

Dementia

Blindess

Stroke damage

Lung cancer risk

Liver damage. Yea, there's a turnup for the books.

Type 2 diabetes may be another

Prostate cancer(can halve the risk)

And since you wanted pubmed

It wasnt an actual challenge but good on you.
A lot of those single studies should be taken with a huge pinch of salt when anaylsing the results and there is no definite link association with a lot of those claims only a possibility of a link.
There is enough evidence out there to suggest that there is some benefit from moderate alcohol - even though there is also research suggesting even moderate alcohol intake has significant risk.

Xeyn · 25-11-2013 12:02PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well since many young(and older) people also smoke marijuana and I can't recall an add for that stuff...

Not clear on your point. Adverts tend to increase usage of a product, not control the entire industries distribution.

Wibbs wrote: »

For me banning advertising is one of those ideas that governments favour as it looks like they're doing something, but it's actual benefits are much harder to gauge.

I certainly dont disagree with that analysis. It would be very difficult to gauge without actually going ahead and doing it. It may not change a thing.

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 12:04PM

seanie_c wrote: »

Ireland has a culture of binge drinking.. The French, Italians and Spaniards have social gatherings where there's a combination of food and drink, not just drink itself.

That's as much a fallacy or at least half truth as the idea that the Latins go around eating pure mediterranean diets. I've been on the lash in Paris, Milan, Madrid and a few other places and while yes they drink with food, I assure you they - especially the young - can down the bevvies in a big way on a night out. A lot of spirits involved too. That was one difference I have noted a few times, my ability to down glasses of beer was considered "impressive" and I'm a lightweight. four pints and I'm adrift. Though that's 8 glasses of beer how they generally drink it so it looked much more. At the same time they'd be knocking back cocktails and vino with wild abandon leaving me convinced they had hollow legs.

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 12:09PM

Xeyn wrote: »

There is enough evidence out there to suggest that there is some benefit from moderate alcohol - even though there is also research suggesting even moderate alcohol intake has significant risk.

The jury is far more in favour of pro health than con. Far more. Hell if Bayer announced tomorrow that they had a new drug that showed health effects like a daily couple of glasses of red wine(or dark beer) their share price would go through the roof.

seanie_c · 25-11-2013 12:10PM

Wibbs wrote: »

That's as much a fallacy or at least half truth as the idea that the Latins go around eating pure mediterranean diets. I've been on the lash in Paris, Milan, Madrid and a few other places and while yes they drink with food, I assure you they - especially the young - can down the bevvies in a big way on a night out. A lot of spirits involved too. That was one difference I have noted a few times, my ability to down glasses of beer was considered "impressive" and I'm a lightweight. four pints and I'm adrift. Though that's 8 glasses of beer how they generally drink it so it looked much more. At the same time they'd be knocking back cocktails and vino with wild abandon leaving me convinced they had hollow legs.

I attended a few different events among these folks where they would prepare food, all sit around chatting, eating, having a few drinks and that was it. Obviously they wouldn't all socialize like this but It'd be surprising for me to see Irish do something similar.

With my Irish friends, it was just...get hammered as quick as possible, then eat.

mikom · 25-11-2013 12:13PM

seanie_c wrote: »

With my Irish friends, it was just...get hammered as quick as possible, then eat.

Sucks to be you.

seanie_c · 25-11-2013 12:19PM

mikom wrote: »

Sucks to be you.

At least I wasn't on my own, unlike yourself, mikom

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 12:19PM

mikom wrote: »

Sucks to be you.

When I was younger yea there was the "let's go out on the piss", but over the years that's dropped right back to a very rare event and more of the couple of beers/vinos with/without food in mates houses took over.

mikom · 25-11-2013 12:21PM

seanie_c wrote: »

At least I wasn't on my own, unlike yourself, mikom

Just read this out to herself in the kitchen frying up some rashers for a bacon butty.
"Chance would be a fine thing" was the reply.

Wibbs wrote: »

When I was younger yea there was the "let's go out on the piss", but over the years that's dropped right back to a very rare event and more of the couple of beers/vinos with/without food in mates houses took over.

So the OP is immature/has immature friends?

seanie_c · 25-11-2013 12:26PM

mikom wrote: »

So the OP is immature/has immature friends?

Beats having no friends, mikom

Collie D · 25-11-2013 12:43PM

mikom wrote: »

So the OP is immature/has immature friends?

You be the judge.

seanie_c wrote: »

Beats having no friends, mikom

Xeyn · 25-11-2013 12:45PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The jury is far more in favour of pro health than con. Far more. Hell if Bayer announced tomorrow that they had a new drug that showed health effects like a daily couple of glasses of red wine(or dark beer) their share price would go through the roof.

Moderation is always quantified in these studies and differs quite significantly to what peoples expectations of moderate drinking is.
Most studies show that the 'couple of glasses of red wine' is not actually moderate drinking. One glass is moderate.
People often think 3 or four pints is moderate whilst for a man only 1 1/2 pints is the maximum daily intake considered to be moderate.

There are still many sceptics out there about a lot of the 'positive' effects of alcohol as the amount of these studies that were randomised control studies (blinded) are few to none (i havent come across a single one) and this is the gold standard scientific study. So accepting things without understanding how the people who tell you this get there is not the wisest thing to do.
Most scientists are careful to always put 'may' in their findings. Ie. Alcohol may improve cardiac risk.

seanie_c · 25-11-2013 12:55PM

Collie D wrote: »

You be the judge.

mikom wrote:

Sucks to be you.

If you don't have anything intelligent to say in future, don't bother responding.

Wibbs · 25-11-2013 01:18PM

Xeyn wrote: »

There are still many sceptics out there about a lot of the 'positive' effects of alcohol as the amount of these studies that were randomised control studies (blinded) are few to none (i havent come across a single one) and this is the gold standard scientific study.

A double blind study into the health effects of alcohol is going to be incredibly difficult. For a start the placebo wouldn't get you even a little tipsy(I can easily feel the effect of a single glass of wine, or pint of beer). There are studies that try to get near that level and here and again the alcohol(in this case wine) showed positive and statistically significant effects.

At this stage the jury is most certainly in and heavily on the side of regular low level consumption of alcohol, particularly wine and dark beers, being advantageous to health and to keep suggesting otherwise is going against many decades of research. Indeed one of the few places I've seen such resistance is among US researchers, though as a culture they have an interesting and at odds relationship to alcohol.

Real Psycrow · 25-11-2013 01:21PM

seanie_c wrote: »

Of course they don't glamorise drunkenness, they imply you'll have a fantastic time drinking it though and yet rarely do I see anyone enjoying themselves after a few drinks in a bar or club.

I see more people lying collapsed on the street among broken glass and the contents of someone's stomach than happiness overall.
Or some fight is breaking out, or a couple are arguing...it's pure BS.

seanie_c wrote: »

Seriously, go to any major Irish town and ask Gardai, Health services incl. womens refuge how many times a week they have to deal with physical assaults, criminal damage, rapes, domestic violence, car accidents, suicides, self harm...ALL because of alcohol....

Any wonder the rest of the world laugh at us with regard to alcohol consumption.

seanie_c wrote: »

I don't know what kind of bar you were in, were they all drinking tea?

Any night I'm out, I always see fights, always see couples arguing with each other, always see people getting sick, always see ambulances taking drunk people to hospital, always see criminal damage to property. Always see puke on the foot paths the next day and the odd time blood from a fight.

seanie_c wrote: »

Point out the bits I made up

See all of the above Seanie.

seanie_c wrote: »

I don't have a crusade against alcohol, I drink alcohol.

This to me is the equivalent of someone accused of being racist saying that some of their best friends are black.

seanie_c wrote: »

Can you list 1 benefit to society?

Jobs.

Seriously Seanie, no one is denying that there are problems, but you don't help your argument by spouting the BS above. Stick with your facts and figures if you want people to take you and the problem more seriously.

El_Dangeroso · 25-11-2013 01:23PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The jury is far more in favour of pro health than con. Far more. Hell if Bayer announced tomorrow that they had a new drug that showed health effects like a daily couple of glasses of red wine(or dark beer) their share price would go through the roof.

Actually it seems the good effects that moderate drinking have nothing to do with wine per se, but just the alcohol. You can have vodkas and the effect is the same.

MadYaker · 25-11-2013 01:25PM

seanie_c wrote: »

If you don't have anything intelligent to say in future, don't bother responding.

If only you'd take your own advice then this thread wouldn't even exist.

Czarcasm · 25-11-2013 01:27PM

seanie the problem isn't alcohol.

The problem is people who abuse alcohol.

You should be taking issue with them, not soapboxing from on high to people who can moderate their alcohol intake.

rubadub · 25-11-2013 01:29PM

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Actually it seems the good effects that moderate drinking have nothing to do with wine per se, but just the alcohol.

I had heard of benefits of red wine over white. Similar to benefits from red coloured fruit & veg. Dunno if its true but heard it a lot.

El_Dangeroso · 25-11-2013 01:34PM

rubadub wrote: »

I had heard of benefits of red wine over white. Similar to benefits from red coloured fruit & veg. Dunno if its true but heard it a lot.

A lot is hypothesised about red wine, but the effects in epidemiological studies are the same for all types of alcohol, along with the fact that all trials on the polyphenols present in red wine have had lacklustre results leads me to believe the benefits are mostly from the ethanol over anything else.

Stupid ads about how wonderful alcohol is

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