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Terrlock · 22-11-2013 02:05PM

bumper234 wrote: »

So you can quote parts of a story or someone's tale, you can tell me how you "found god" but you cannot show me definitive proof of "Gods" existence?

not parts of someone's story, I have my own testimony and I have listened to others peoples testimony.

I have witnessed several miracles that cannot be explained by science.

I will give you one that I witnessed, was a girl who hit her head extremely hard against a wall, as a result severed her optic nerve.

Went to hospital and they told her that she would never see out of that eye again, that there was no treatment that can fix that.

to see that girl blind for two weeks, but being prayed for all the time.

after two weeks her eye all of a sudden healed and was restored to full sight.

She was only 12 years old.

Her own doctor said it was a miracle, that it could not happen and could not rationalise it.

Pherekydes · 22-11-2013 02:05PM

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

This is a mistranslation - what it actually says if you go back to studying the hebrew, that if a man has consented sexual relations with a women then he should marry that women.

This is nonsense! How can one mistranslate the revealed Word of God?

The very thought is ridiculuous. And you gave birth to that thought.

PopePalpatine · 22-11-2013 02:13PM

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

pauldla wrote: »

How did we get from 'overwhelming evidence' to 'testimony'...?

Strangely enough, this is reminding me a lot of a debate on the existence of god(s) on another forum I frequent, and the guy insisting testimony counts as evidence is also a young Earth creatard creationist.

Bannasidhe · 22-11-2013 02:18PM

Here are a few quotes from people who read the Bible very very carefully and were committed Christians who rejected Rome's insistence on the Doctrine of Free Will.

"If the natural man has a free will to believe the gospel, then why does he need grace? If his will is naturally free then it would do away with the need for grace altogether...To teach that the natural man has a free will overthrows the gospel ... it is precisely because man is in bondage that he needs Christ to set him free." (John 8:34, 36)
- John Hendryx
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

"Free-will or Free-grace?; The Bible says that men are born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13); that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy (Rom 9;16); the work of faith is the operation of God according to the exceeding greatness of his power, who works in man both to will and to do of his own good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace."
- C. H. Spurgeon
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/Human%20Inability.htm

"All the passages in the Holy Scriptures that mention assistance are they that do away with "free-will", and these are countless ... For grace is needed, and the help of grace is given, because "free-will" can do nothing."
- Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, pg. 270
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
- Martin Luther
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

"...human will does not by liberty obtain grace, but by grace obtains liberty."
- John Calvin

"We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it's principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ," it is God that worketh in us to will and to do ' (Phil. 2:13)
- John Calvin

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70[/QUOTE]

http://www.calvin.edu/library/database/dissertations/Choy_Kiven_S.PDF

Cabaal · 22-11-2013 02:20PM

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock, so examples of how god has helped you in your life?

Has god helped you get a job, stopped rain on a wedding day what exactly?
I'm not looking for examples you claim relate to other people, I'm looking for how it affected you directly.

Oh and examples such as "god helped me get through a hard time" don't count, you have freewill and as such god can't change how you manage through a hard time. If you got through a hardtime its you that manage this, not some god.

pauldla · 22-11-2013 02:24PM

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

I will give you one that I witnessed, was a girl who hit her head extremely hard against a wall, as a result severed her optic nerve.

Went to hospital and they told her that she would never see out of that eye again, that there was no treatment that can fix that.

to see that girl blind for two weeks, but being prayed for all the time.

after two weeks her eye all of a sudden healed and was restored to full sight.

She was only 12 years old.

Her own doctor said it was a miracle, that it could not happen and could not rationalise it.

Witnessing something you do not fully understand does not prove the existence of god. It only proves that you can witness things you don't fully understand. The tale above is not much better than saying 'My grandmother doesn't know how to use the remote control, therefore God'.

[-0-] · 22-11-2013 02:30PM

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Geomy · 22-11-2013 02:32PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Terrlock, so examples of how god has helped you in your life?

Has god helped you get a job, stopped rain on a wedding day what exactly?
I'm not looking for examples you claim relate to other people, I'm looking for how it affected you directly.

Oh and examples such as "god helped me get through a hard time" don't count, you have freewill and as such god can't change how you manage through a hard time. If you got through a hardtime its you that manage this, not some god.

Sometimes a good clean out of the cobwebs helps.
I know theists who might abstain from lusting, resentments, jealousy, anger and other so called negative emotions. .
Life got too hard being sinful and devious. ..

So when they gradually got better they attributed their feeling of godliness to God helping them. ..
But anymore than a year of this complete piety leads to insanity...

I Tried being a good lad myself and I nearly went bonkers lol

smacl · 22-11-2013 02:39PM

Could God really stop a Timelord?

Geomy wrote: »

I Tried being a good lad myself and I nearly went bonkers lol

Good to who though? Once you're not being hurtful to others it's pretty much all good. The Christian notion of good wouldn't be that aligned to my notion of good.

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 02:43PM

Terrlock wrote: »

At least it's consistent for 2000 years and answers a lot more questions then any other world-view.

This is the kind of consistency which allows the rules on abortion to be changed no less than six times within the church, with many adjustments taken in between those absolute swings. The kind of consistency you find when you've a child who can't decide between chocolate and honeycomb icecream.

Yeah, the christian religion has travelled a very straight path* over the last 2,00 years.

*provided that the word straight is redefined as a path "which swoop and spiral around one another like [...] a squadron of Yossarians with middle-ear trouble."(courtesy of Terry Pratchett 1992)

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 03:06PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Where does it claim this exactly?

Observations, how did stone age people know when the shortest day of the year was?

"cough"
Greeks mentioned it was round long before any Christians did

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Classical_Greece

Of course if you want to talk about doing and knowing stuff, how did so many non christian cultures build such impressive technologically advances structures that even today we';d struggle with. They clearly must have received help from their gods :pac:

Not alone that but Eratosthenes of Cyrene managed to give us a pretty impressive estimate of the earth's circumference (even if he used the larger Greek stade as his unit of measurement) using basic mathematics.

Terrlock · 22-11-2013 03:36PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Terrlock, so examples of how god has helped you in your life?

Has god helped you get a job, stopped rain on a wedding day what exactly?
I'm not looking for examples you claim relate to other people, I'm looking for how it affected you directly.

Oh and examples such as "god helped me get through a hard time" don't count, you have freewill and as such god can't change how you manage through a hard time. If you got through a hardtime its you that manage this, not some god.

Yes God has helped me get a job, also not only did he stop the rain on my wedding day he stop the rain for a whole week before it and made it one of the nicest days of the year. He also helped me to initially find the person I would marry. He also helped my partner to find a Job.

God has helped me and continues to help me in every aspect of my life.

How do I know that it is God and not just me imagining it, is down to that these things all happened in a supernatural way.

I'd be happy to go into details of these with you in private, but not going into the details of my life on a public forum.

Terrlock · 22-11-2013 03:40PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This is the kind of consistency which allows the rules on abortion to be changed no less than six times within the church, with many adjustments taken in between those absolute swings. The kind of consistency you find when you've a child who can't decide between chocolate and honeycomb icecream.

Yeah, the christian religion has travelled a very straight path* over the last 2,00 years.

*provided that the word straight is redefined as a path "which swoop and spiral around one another like [...] a squadron of Yossarians with middle-ear trouble."(courtesy of Terry Pratchett 1992)

What church are you referring to? if your referring to how the catholic church has changed it stance over the 2000 years then that's a different discussion.

the Pharisees claimed to represent God until Jesus came along and thought us different.

pauldla · 22-11-2013 03:41PM

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

Yes God has helped me get a job, also not only did he stop the rain on my wedding day he stop the rain for a whole week before it and made it one of the nicest days of the year. He also helped me to initially find the person I would marry. He also helped my partner to find a Job.

God has helped me and continues to help me in every aspect of my life.

How do I know that it is God and not just me imagining it, is down to that these things all happened in a supernatural way.

I'd be happy to go into details of these with you in private, but not going into the details of my life on a public forum.

It didn't rain, for a week, in a supernatural way.

What about any local farmers or gardeners who might have been praying for rain?

lazygal · 22-11-2013 03:42PM

Even if God flooded the Earth? How does He destroy THUNDERBIRD 4?

Terrlock wrote: »

Yes God has helped me get a job, also not only did he stop the rain on my wedding day he stop the rain for a whole week before it and made it one of the nicest days of the year. He also helped me to initially find the person I would marry. He also helped my partner to find a Job.

God has helped me and continues to help me in every aspect of my life.

How do I know that it is God and not just me imagining it, is down to that these things all happened in a supernatural way.

I'd be happy to go into details of these with you in private, but not going into the details of my life on a public forum.

How come he organised nice weather for your wedding but gave my family a genetic mutation which increases our propensity for certain cancers?Is nice weather for a wedding higher on his priority list?

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 03:46PM

Terrlock wrote: »

It might be because a lot of the advanced teachings were from the nephilim.

And these lead to wars and sin.

You know, you're straying mightily close to the church of jesus christ and the latter day saints for a self professed christian.

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 03:48PM

Terrlock wrote: »

this doesn't look like an elephant

http://bibliaestudomany.network.hu/kepek/teremtett_vilag/orias_csontvaz

Lots more photo's as well.

Sarky · 22-11-2013 03:54PM

OMG! Spoiler!

lazygal wrote: »

How come he organised nice weather for your wedding but gave my family a genetic mutation which increases our propensity for certain cancers?Is nice weather for a wedding higher on his priority list?

Because Book of Job something something.

Terrlock, don't you think YOU might have had something to do with finding a job? Maybe you had skills your employer wanted? Perhaps your spouse actually fell in love with you of her own accord? They're allowed to do that, you know.

I don't think you're giving yourself or your spouse quite enough credit here.

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 03:59PM

Geomy wrote: »

Which came first the Atheist or the Theist ?

The atheist, there has never been a single documented case of a person being born with a belief in any god, and there never will be.

We have to learn "belief".

Genghiz Cohen · 22-11-2013 04:07PM

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Sarky wrote: »

Because Book of Job something something.

Terrlock, don't you think YOU might have had something to do with finding a job? Maybe you had skills your employer wanted? Perhaps your spouse actually fell in love with you of her own accord? They're allowed to do that, you know.

I don't think you're giving yourself or your spouse quite enough credit here.

No, no.
God decides who can find a job. Who falls in love and gets married (lol gays). And only if you believe will he give you a sunny day for your wedding, nothing to do with it being Summer at all.

Terrlock · 22-11-2013 04:22PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Here are a few quotes from people who read the Bible very very carefully and were committed Christians who rejected Rome's insistence on the Doctrine of Free Will.

"If the natural man has a free will to believe the gospel, then why does he need grace? If his will is naturally free then it would do away with the need for grace altogether...To teach that the natural man has a free will overthrows the gospel ... it is precisely because man is in bondage that he needs Christ to set him free." (John 8:34, 36)
- John Hendryx
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/libertarian.html

"Free-will or Free-grace?; The Bible says that men are born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13); that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy (Rom 9;16); the work of faith is the operation of God according to the exceeding greatness of his power, who works in man both to will and to do of his own good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace."
- C. H. Spurgeon
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/Human%20Inability.htm

"All the passages in the Holy Scriptures that mention assistance are they that do away with "free-will", and these are countless ... For grace is needed, and the help of grace is given, because "free-will" can do nothing."
- Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, pg. 270
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
- Martin Luther
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

"...human will does not by liberty obtain grace, but by grace obtains liberty."
- John Calvin

"We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it's principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ," it is God that worketh in us to will and to do ' (Phil. 2:13)
- John Calvin

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

http://www.calvin.edu/library/database/dissertations/Choy_Kiven_S.PDF[/QUOTE]

Yes but we are all free to choose are we not. Initially man was free to choose to do the will of God or his own will.

His own will leads to death and falling away from God's presence.

It is the will of God to save us from death.

It is through grace we are saved because nothing that we can do ourselves can save us from death. Only God can save us from death.

People do good works to win the favour of God, other do penance because the believe the need to suffer for there sins to make up for them...again trying to win the favour of God.

In reality we already have the favour of God, we just need to learn how to listen to him and to follow what he says, because that is the only way we can over come death.

Adam came directly from God, he sinned against God of his own free will.

We come from Adam and are subject to death just like Adam.

God is offering us a way to be saved from death, by accepting his gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ and to be become Born again onto him.

Cabaal · 22-11-2013 04:24PM

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock wrote: »

this doesn't look like an elephant

http://bibliaestudomany.network.hu/kepek/teremtett_vilag/orias_csontvaz

Lots more photo's as well.

More photo fun,
Oh look, Dragons really existed
main-qimg-b66cfe1a3c2d68d6223ff7c6895ebb39

Terrlock · 22-11-2013 04:25PM

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

No, no.
God decides who can find a job. Who falls in love and gets married (lol gays). And only if you believe will he give you a sunny day for your wedding, nothing to do with it being Summer at all.

God does not decide these things.

But when you have a personal relationship with God, you can listen to God and allow him to guide you in all things.

eyescreamcone · 22-11-2013 04:26PM

Anyone who thinks that they can influence 'the supreme being' of the universe into ensuring "a nice day" for their wedding is deluded.

In the next field a farmer is praying for rain and cursing your god and his sunshine.

It's like fans/players of both teams in a football match praying for victory.
Does god answer half the prayers so?
He does in his bollix.

Praying = Hoping

When you pray for a sunny day you are only hoping for it in all reality.

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 04:27PM

Terrlock wrote: »

What church are you referring to? if your referring to how the catholic church has changed it stance over the 2000 years then that's a different discussion.

the Pharisees claimed to represent God until Jesus came along and thought us different.

I can pick out examples as significant from every single christian sect if I take enough time to google it.

Cabaal · 22-11-2013 04:33PM

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock wrote: »

Yes God has helped me get a job,

Wrong,
The only way your god could help you get a job would be
- He changed the mind of the person doing the hiring, he can't do this
- He changed your cv in some manner and lied for you, this is a sin

only you can help yourself get a job, m you get the experience, you go to college etc. your god cannot influence people as that takes away their freewill.

He also helped me to initially find the person I would marry.

Again, thats down to you and your partner,
Unless god changed the mind of your partner or created a dating profile for you, your god did nothing

He also helped my partner to find a Job.

Again, see above

As for the "he helped you have good weather" nonsense, so he gave you a nice day but he decided to be a total **** to all the farmers in the area who wanted rain and who's need for rain was greater then your simplistic aesthetic reason for wanting nice weather....cause well the photos and stuff outside will look nice.

Brian Shanahan · 22-11-2013 04:34PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

To elaborate further on the veracity of my statement, read this. The photo that Terrlock posted is simply a bad photoshop.

Geomy · 22-11-2013 04:37PM

smacl wrote: »

Good to who though? Once you're not being hurtful to others it's pretty much all good. The Christian notion of good wouldn't be that aligned to my notion of good.

Good to myself, I tend to stay out of confrontation unless it's a bit of harmless banter and slagging someone off.
I m probably a bit of a cute whore or harmless rogue, charming smooth talking bastrd
Which would you prefer smacl ?

Bannasidhe · 22-11-2013 04:45PM

Terrlock wrote: »

http://www.calvin.edu/library/database/dissertations/Choy_Kiven_S.PDF

Yes but we are all free to choose are we not. Initially man was free to choose to do the will of God or his own will.

His own will leads to death and falling away from God's presence.

It is the will of God to save us from death.

It is through grace we are saved because nothing that we can do ourselves can save us from death. Only God can save us from death.

People do good works to win the favour of God, other do penance because the believe the need to suffer for there sins to make up for them...again trying to win the favour of God.

In reality we already have the favour of God, we just need to learn how to listen to him and to follow what he says, because that is the only way we can over come death.

Adam came directly from God, he sinned against God of his own free will.

We come from Adam and are subject to death just like Adam.

God is offering us a way to be saved from death, by accepting his gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ and to be become Born again onto him.

Still awaiting the Biblical passages that says we have Free Will.

All you have posted above is your opinion.
I have already given you examples of opinions that differ greatly from your - opinions you cannot dismiss by claiming those people were unfamiliar with the Bible.

I am beginning to suspect you cannot find a passage in the Bible that states we do, indeed, have Free Will - as both Calvin and Luther were unable to ...

If that is the case - you have no basis for your claim that God gave us Free Will now have you?

eyescreamcone · 22-11-2013 04:54PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Still awaiting the Biblical passages that says we have Free Will.

All you have posted above is your opinion.
I have already given you examples of opinions that differ greatly from your - opinions you cannot dismiss by claiming those people were unfamiliar with the Bible.

I am beginning to suspect you cannot find a passage in the Bible that states we do, indeed, have Free Will - as both Calvin and Luther were unable to ...

If that is the case - you have no basis for your claim that God gave us Free Will-y now have you?

god gave him to us but we let him escape!!

Science! Ask you question here. Biscuits NOT included and answers not guaranteed.

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