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Delirium

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

I don't think it's as simple as that.

If God is life itself...then rejecting God is to reject life.

It's akin to someone trying to commit suicide and also trying to bring everyone else with them.

If you don't know, there's no problem in saying so.

Does a person in Heaven have the ability to reject God while in Heaven?

Todd Toddington III

(Wouldn't that also have seen the flood coming?)

[-0-] wrote: »

99.9% of all species are dead. Some design, isn't it?
The Andromeda Galaxy is heading right for us, ensuring complete destruction. Some design, isn't it?
Our sun is a finite resource. Some design, isn't it?

The chance of two stars colliding when galaxies merge are actually minute when you consider the vast space between stars. Ive read its theorized that our star was part of a smaller galacy canabalized by the milky way way back, hence the plane of rotation of the milky way not aligning with our sun and its orbiting planet

Terrlock

Sarky wrote: »

It really is. You should read through it again.



By choosing free will you're denying free will exists. That's what you're saying here. You still aren't making any sense.

I am saying the we wilfully give up our free will.

Sarky wrote: »

It's nothing like that at all. Justice systems have routes of appeal, for a start. It's one of the reasons it's called a justice system and not a punishment system. Your god has none of that. Crimes are generally things which actually cause harm to people or society. Your god gets uppity at things that cannot be called a crime by anyone with a shred of sense, like how he gets wrathful at someone for having the poor judgement to be born gay. Justice systems have finite sentences and at least some effort to rehabilitate offenders, reduced sentences for good behaviour, community service and the like. Your god goes straight to eternal punishment, no appeal.

Your god isn't just. He's a sociopathic tyrant.

Your right it isn't like our Justice system as your justice system is no where near Just.

In our reality the more power and wealth you have the more you can get away with crime. In fact in Ireland criminals are given mere slaps on the wrists for the most vile of crimes such as rape while bankers and politicians get away with stealing the countries money. - Where is the Justice?



The Lord is completely Just in all his actions.

Does God get angry at people just for being born gay? Did Jesus actually get angry at the prostitute when she was about to be stoned to death?

In fact Jesus associated himself with all the sinners and criminals of the time.

He did so to save them not to condemn them.

God has repeatedly tried to save humanity throughout the ages and we turn our backs at every stage because we prefer destruction and ignorance then life.

Cabaal

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock wrote: »

No that's not what I am saying.

God gave you free will, you wilfully choose to live in sin. What more you justify your sins by convincing yourself it doesn't exist and therefore God doesn't exist. This leads to your sin holding your whole life in bondage until you eventually die. Thus you loose your free will.

It's like in this life, you are free to live life, unless of course you commit a crime and if there is justice done you will go to prison for that crime and loose your free will.

Anyone can freely choose to commit a crime, but once your locked up you loose your free will.

But how do you avoid living in sin if the goalposts keep being moved?

Used to be the most awful thing for
- women to wear pants
- wear stuff of two different materials
- allow communion to touch the roof of your mouth
and other such sillyness.

Also what about the poor rapists? The bible says they must marry the women they've raped. But we deny them this and instead jail them,

Are we sinning against the rapist?

Cabaal

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock,
So rejecting god is sin,

Ok lets pretend thats a fact, there's a massive flaw in it even if it is true

Human's existed for approx 250k years, but the christian faith is only around 2000 odd years. This means your apparently loving god condemns all of human kind to hell for not believing in him even though he didn't exist prior to this time.,

Thats awful poor planning by your god,

Why would a all powerful god only reveal himself to a very very small community of people in the middle east but ignore the rest of the planet knowing that there is no way they can even spread the word?

What about north and south america? Why would a loving god condem all of those living there to an eternity of pain for not believing in him?

housetypeb

Terrlock wrote: »

The thing is us worshipping God is for our benefit not his.

That's a very servile attitude.

Cabaal

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock wrote: »

The thing is us worshipping God is for our benefit not his.

But there is no benefit,

Your god can't intervene in a persons life to save them or even when a entire 6 million people all pray he can't stop them from being wiped out.

As an example your god condemned 6 million people to an awful death and took zero action to help them, but the outcome of this was heaven?...that makes no sense what so ever.

I can see why some people support the theory that the Roman's created the christian faith in order to control people,

if you are dealing with people that are stupid enough to put up with any type of suffering on the basis that they'll go to heaven then you'd be stupid to let them think otherwise.

In this case you can use fear to control dumb people, not fear of you hurting them, But fear of a god condemning them to hell.

seamus

"I've given you free will because I love. But do as I say or you'll be tortured".

Whoops, there's that abusive relationship coming through again.

The Catholics are big on this whole "I hurt you because I love you" vibe, aren't they?

Terrlock

Cabaal wrote: »

But how do you avoid living in sin if the goalposts keep being moved?

Used to be the most awful thing for
- women to wear pants
- wear stuff of two different materials
- allow communion to touch the roof of your mouth
and other such sillyness.

Are you referring to man made sins that the catholic church made up?

Cabaal wrote: »

Also what about the poor rapists? The bible says they must marry the women they've raped. But we deny them this and instead jail them,

Are we sinning against the rapist?

This is a mistranslation - what it actually says if you go back to studying the hebrew, that if a man has consented sexual relations with a women then he should marry that women.

gaynorvader

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

{...}

This is a mistranslation - what it actually says if you go back to studying the hebrew, that if a man has consented sexual relations with a women then he should marry that women.

Do you have a link for this, sounds interesting? A lot of the Bible we have today is mistranslated.

Cabaal

OMG! Spoiler!

Terrlock wrote: »

Are you referring to man made sins that the catholic church made up?

This is a mistranslation - what it actually says if you go back to studying the hebrew, that if a man has consented sexual relations with a women then he should marry that women.

are they made up?, well it says it in the bible.
How can you be sure that much of the stuff you believe is also not a mistranslation?

Do you simply only choose to second guess stuff thats uncomfortable?

Delirium

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

Are you referring to man made sins that the catholic church made up?

This is a mistranslation - what it actually says if you go back to studying the hebrew, that if a man has consented sexual relations with a women then he should marry that women.

But I thought the bible had stayed consistent?

Terrlock

Cabaal wrote: »

But there is no benefit,

Your god can't intervene in a persons life to save them or even when a entire 6 million people all pray he can't stop them from being wiped out.

As an example your god condemned 6 million people to an awful death and took zero action to help them, but the outcome of this was heaven?...that makes no sense what so ever.

Your mistaken there God does intervene in people's lives.

One of the first questions that you might ask a fellow Christian when you meet them for the first time is How they came to know the Lord.

Many of them will tell you stories where God has directly intervened and saved their lives.

God has intervenes in my life all the time, and I thank him for it.

I know some scientist now claim that Christianity is a mental illness which tries to counteract people's testimony of God in there lives.

But this is just an action to try and cover up the overwhelming evidence that testimony gives that God, the holy spirit and Jesus Christ exist and directly intervene in peoples lives.

bumper234

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

Your mistaken there God does intervene in people's lives.

One of the first questions that you might ask a fellow Christian when you meet them for the first time is How they came to know the Lord.

Many of them will tell you stories where God has directly intervened and saved their lives.

God has intervenes in my life all the time, and I thank him for it.

I know some scientist now claim that Christianity is a mental illness which tries to counteract people's testimony of God in there lives.

But this is just an action to try and cover up the overwhelming evidence that testimony gives that God, the holy spirit and Jesus Christ exist and directly intervene in peoples lives.

Can you show me some of this overwhelming evidence please?

Terrlock

koth wrote: »

But I thought the bible had stayed consistent?

It does, but only in the original Hebrew and Greek languages that it was written in.

There are mis-translations and mistakes all the time in the English translations

in order to study the bible properly you need to look at the Original language it was written in.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not according to John Calvin who read the Bible very, very, very, carefully indeed- so much so that he founded his own Biblical based Christian sect - you may have heard of it - It's called Calvinism and it has a baby named Presbyterianism .

Free Will is pretty much a Roman Catholic doctrine and is certainly not shared by all Christians.

I would be extremely interested in seeing the passage in the Bible that refers to us having Free Will - particularly as John Calvin wasn't able to fine one...

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - there you are.

Biblical passage that states we have Free Will Please?

You know, the one John Calvin couldn't find even though he was not only able to recite the whole book from memory he also based an entire religion/ society on it...

Terrlock wrote: »

Your mistaken there God does intervene in people's lives.

One of the first questions that you might ask a fellow Christian when you meet them for the first time is How they came to know the Lord.

Many of them will tell you stories where God has directly intervened and saved their lives.

God has intervenes in my life all the time, and I thank him for it.

I know some scientist now claim that Christianity is a mental illness which tries to counteract people's testimony of God in there lives.

But this is just an action to try and cover up the overwhelming evidence that testimony gives that God, the holy spirit and Jesus Christ exist and directly intervene in peoples lives.

Any chance of an answer?

In case you missed the question the last two times I asked:

What Biblical passages tell us we have Free Will?

Terrlock

bumper234 wrote: »

Can you show me some of this overwhelming evidence please?

I can give you testimony if that's what your looking for

Terrlock

gaynorvader wrote: »

Do you have a link for this, sounds interesting? A lot of the Bible we have today is mistranslated.

Here is a bible study on it if you like.

http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/sunday-study-does-the-bible-teach-that-a-rape-victim-has-to-marry-her-rapist.html

bumper234

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

I can give you testimony if that's what your looking for

So you can quote parts of a story or someone's tale, you can tell me how you "found god" but you cannot show me definitive proof of "Gods" existence?

pauldla

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

I can give you testimony if that's what your looking for

How did we get from 'overwhelming evidence' to 'testimony'...?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Any chance of an answer?

In case you missed the question the last two times I asked:

What Biblical passages tell us we have Free Will?

Terrlock wrote: »

I can give you testimony if that's what your looking for

Can you please answer my question?

robindch

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

The thing is us worshipping God is for our benefit not his.

So we'll "worship" this god of yours so that he won't burn us?

Ah, that's real nice of him!

Terrlock

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Any chance of an answer?

In case you missed the question the last two times I asked:

What Biblical passages tell us we have Free Will?

Sorry, but it's hard to keep up with every post.

Here is a link to lots of biblical passages on free will.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will

bumper234

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

Sorry, but it's hard to keep up with every post.

Here is a link to lots of biblical passages on free will.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will

That's not you answering the question that he asked you.

Terrlock

pauldla wrote: »

How did we get from 'overwhelming evidence' to 'testimony'...?

I did say -

overwhelming evidence that testimony gives that God, the holy spirit and Jesus Christ exist and directly intervene in peoples lives.

Christian all the time give testimony of God in their lives.

the last time I checked testimony is valid in any court as evidence.

folan

Terrlock wrote: »

the last time I checked testimony is valid in any court as evidence.

no, it is valid as testimony. it is not valid as evidence.

pauldla

FYI: This is Option Number Twenty-Five. Isn't this being a bit, uh, mean on the hamsters?

Terrlock wrote: »

I did say -

overwhelming evidence that testimony gives that God, the holy spirit and Jesus Christ exist and directly intervene in peoples lives.

Christian all the time give testimony of God in the lives.

the last time I checked testimony is valid in any court as evidence.

Testimony, as I understand it, can mean nothing more than a declaration. If you have overwhelming evidence that the Trinity exist and directly interneve in peoples lives, produce it.

Bannasidhe

Terrlock wrote: »

Sorry, but it's hard to keep up with every post.

Here is a link to lots of biblical passages on free will.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will

That is a bunch of passages mainly referring to God's will - not the concept of Free Will.

Care to actually answer the question put to you?

You claimed that people are not reading the Bible properly or thoroughly - well, as I have stated several times now - no one can make that accusation against John Calvin yet he utterly rejected the concept of Free Will and instead insisted on Pre-Determination.

So - given you insist that we have Free Will - please show me the passages that led you to this conclusion.

Terrlock

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is a bunch of passages mainly referring to God's will - not the concept of Free Will.

Care to actually answer the question put to you?

You claimed that people are not reading the Bible properly or thoroughly - well, as I have stated several times now - no one can make that accusation against John Calvin yet he utterly rejected the concept of Free Will and instead insisted on Pre-Determination.

So - given you insist that we have Free Will - please show me the passages that led you to this conclusion.

From the very beginning in Genesis we have free will.


We have the free will to choose our actions. that doesn't mean are actions don't have certain consequences.

But we still have free will to choose what we do.

Bannasidhe

Terrlock wrote: »

From the very beginning in Genesis we have free will.


We have the free will to choose our actions. that doesn't mean are actions don't have certain consequences.

But we still have free will to choose what we do.

So you keep saying - yet you haven't shown me the relevant passages yet .