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How to revive the Irish language.

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    #1742
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Its fairly usefull for those who want a future in the media.

    Irish is useful for those who want a future in state funded media. TG4 has a viewership of 2%, with much of that being for its English-language offerings. It exists only because of the allocation of licence money, colection of which is enforced under the ciminal law.


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    #1743
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    Seaneh wrote: »
    *****English is our first language because of the penal laws and the repression of Irish culture under British rule, saying otherwise is a load of bollocks.

    So: how do you account for the adherence of the population to English since 1922 in spite of intense efforts by the state officials to get them to change their language?

    (It's easy now to forget how intense those efforts once were. The sham "Revival" that the politicians maintain to-day is only a pale shadow of the efforts made in the past.)


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    #1744
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Interest in History wrote: »
    Irish is useful for those who want a future in state funded media. TG4 has a viewership of 2%, with much of that being for its English-language offerings. It exists only because of the allocation of licence money, colection of which is enforced under the ciminal law.

    Yep, just like RTÉ, and most print and broadcast media.


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    #1745
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Interest in History wrote: »
    (It's easy now to forget how intense those efforts once were. The sham "Revival" that the politicians maintain to-day is only a pale shadow of the efforts made in the past.)

    Intense? Not how those with a little more insight into national language policy than you have put it. An Coimisinéir Teanga recently described the states language policy from the start as ''Soiniciúlacht, cur i gcéill agus an mhéar fhada a bhí sa treis: is deacair bri ar bith eile a bhaint''
    That is, cynicisim, pretence and and the long finger is what was involved, its dificult to see any other meaning.


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    #1746
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Intense? Not how those with a little more insight into national language policy than you have put it. An Coimisinéir Teanga recently described the states language policy from the start as ''Soiniciúlacht, cur i gcéill agus an mhéar fhada a bhí sa treis: is deacair bri ar bith eile a bhaint''
    That is, cynicisim, pretence and and the long finger is what was involved, its dificult to see any other meaning.

    OK - so we would agree on the nature of state policy now; and perhaps we can shelve the question of whether or not state policy from 1922 was always 'cur i gcéill'.

    But there are two distinct strands of state policy now: the measures aiming to support those who choose to engage with Irish, and the measures aiming at linguistic change in the population at large. The first is genuine because the recipients want them, the second are cur i gcéill because the recipients don't want them. The grand sham lies with the politicians pretending that the second set of measures are genuine, like the first set. Their own political image is bound up with the Revival symbolism and their use of it is cynical. (Or maybe it is just another reflection of their general weakness.)

    Anyway, the second set of measures are being subjected to a sort of 'slow puncture' treatment. Slowly and very quietly, one after another of these measures are being removed.


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    #1747
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Interest in History wrote: »
    the measures aiming to support those who choose to engage with Irish, and the measures aiming at linguistic change in the population at large.


    How would you destinguish between the two, perhaps you could give some examples of each?


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    #1748
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Intense? Not how those with a little more insight into national language policy than you have put it....

    I admit that I am confined to observing the public manifestations of the Revival. I have no inside track. But I did observe some pretty intense revivalist measures in the past. Yep! Pretty intense. I'm sure of it.


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    #1749
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Interest in History wrote: »
    I admit that I am confined to observing the public manifestations of the Revival. I have no inside track. But I did observe some pretty intense revivalist measures in the past. Yep! Pretty intense. I'm sure of it.


    Define 'pretty intense', it is quite a subjective term, what is intense to you may well be of trifiling insignificence to the rest of us.


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    #1750
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    An Coilean wrote: »
    How would you destinguish between the two, perhaps you could give some examples of each?

    Gaelscoileanna and TG4 for the first. The Irish portion of the ESB booklets and bilingual road signs for the second.


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    #1751
    Poll Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Poll Dubh


    I revived my own Irish with a bit of study and now enjoy raising my own little boys through Irish.


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    #1752
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Define 'pretty intense', it is quite a subjective term, what is intense to you may well be of trifiling insignificence to the rest of us.

    The refusal of any Leaving Certificate to a pupil who did not pass Irish was an intense measure. Also Irish being an entry requirement for the public service and for promotion in the public service.

    But again - is it fruitful to debate the past? Let's focus on the present.


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    #1753
    Curly Judge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    Poll Dubh wrote: »
    I revived my own Irish with a bit of study and now enjoy raising my own little boys through Irish.

    Well done! I seriously congratulate you on your hobby, I really do.
    It's only when people, [I'm not for a minute suggesting you], want other people to pay for that hobby that I take issue with the compulsion behind the effort to revive the Irish language.


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    #1754
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Interest in History wrote: »
    Gaelscoileanna and TG4 for the first. The Irish portion of the ESB booklets and bilingual road signs for the second.


    Gaelscoileanna are not a result of Government language policy, they were by an large forced on the Government by communities around the country and were often resisted by the Government.
    TG4 again came about because of pressure from the public which saw several people go to Jail, I would not say it is fair to credit state policy with either.

    I really don't see how a bilingual booklet from the ESB could be said to be part of a policy of linguistic change in the population at large, that they are bilingual means that an English version of the information is available for those who choose to use English.
    Is there also being an Irish version of the information not just an example of the state supporting those who choose to use Irish, if they were available in English only, that would in essence force English on those who prefer to use Irish, would it not?


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    #1755
    Poll Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭Poll Dubh


    Curly Judge wrote: »
    Well done! I seriously congratulate you on your hobby, I really do.
    It's only when people, [I'm not for a minute suggesting you], want other people to pay for that hobby that I take issue with the compulsion behind the effort to revive the Irish language.

    I communicate full time with my children in Irish which includes play, homework, getting dressed, getting them to eat their dinner and chastising them. I never heard of raising children being called a hobby before.

    I pay taxes and appreciate having Irish services from the state.


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    #1756
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    Curly Judge wrote: »
    Well done! I seriously congratulate you on your hobby, I really do.
    It's only when people, [I'm not for a minute suggesting you], want other people to pay for that hobby that I take issue with the compulsion behind the effort to revive the Irish language.

    The free choice of a person to have more Irish in his or her life does not intrude on the freedom or welfare of anybody else. In fact it enriches the community indirectly.

    The negative aspects of the Revival come entirely from the politicians.


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    #1757
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    Curly Judge wrote: »
    Well done! I seriously congratulate you on your hobby, I really do.
    It's only when people, [I'm not for a minute suggesting you], want other people to pay for that hobby that I take issue with the compulsion behind the effort to revive the Irish language.


    Intresting choice of words, why 'Hobby'? I can't imagine someone raising their children through English being described as being engaged in a hobby, why use the word for someone raising their kids through Irish?


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    #1758
    Green Giant
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Green Giant


    I believe that a lot of the disdain for the Irish language in this country stems from the dismally flawed manner in which the Irish course at secondary school level is structured.

    Is it any wonder so many people (or at least a lot of people that I know) are turned off the language because they had Peig or An Triail drummed into them by a teacher who thinks that the same literature is worthy of Bible status? Ditto with poetry about a woman pulling away from a Connemara pier in 1834, leaving her poet husband a broken, yet suddenly inspired, man.

    If Irish was taught as a language in the same manner that French, German, etc is taught at second level, rather than as a literature with irrelevant hardships from multiple generations ago, young people might be more encouraged to take pride in it and subsequently use it in their daily lives.


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    #1759
    Curly Judge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    Poll Dubh wrote: »
    I communicate full time with my children in Irish which includes play, homework, getting dressed, getting them to eat their dinner and chastising them. I never heard of raising children being called a hobby before.

    I pay taxes and appreciate having Irish services from the state.

    I dont think I said that.
    It might serve your argument better if you didn't put words in my mouth?


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    #1760
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,113 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Intresting choice of words, why 'Hobby'? I can't imagine someone raising their children through English being described as being engaged in a hobby, why use the word for someone raising their kids through Irish?

    Therein lies the problem: the second camp as illustrated by Interest in History will always see it as a "hobby".

    The appointment of a commissoner and most of the useage of the funding are measures to pmake Irish available to those who want it. In other words, the first group highlighted by IiH. The second group, those who don't speak Irish, are not affected by this and will not be attracted to learn Irish when the funding is spent in this way. Therefore, it maintains it's "hobby" status in our view. Be it right or wrong, this IS the effect created by such policies.

    I have no problem with all of this, by the way: but there is a sense of "preaching to the choir" about it. It all depends on how much funding you want to see maintaining Irish for those who want it and how much funding you want to see spent on expanding the number of regular Irish speakers in the country, I suppose.

    At the moment, it's far more (if not entirely) the former, and little or none for the later, so there will always be a "hobby" to most non-Irish speakers.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1761
    MFdaveIreland
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MFdaveIreland


    Wish we had of been taught Irish language up north here since primary school. Didn't get taught it until second year of secondary school for a few years, should be compulsory , feel theres an inferiority complex with speakers and non speakers in terms of Irish pedigree, sounds daft but I think it's true


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    #1762
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,113 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    MFdaveIreland wrote: »
    Wish we had of been taught Irish language up north here since primary school. Didn't get taught it until second year of secondary school for a few years, should be compulsory , feel theres an inferiority complex with speakers and non speakers in terms of Irish pedigree, sounds daft but I think it's true

    who's inferior? And how will forcing reluctang teenagers make anyone feel mroe superior?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1763
    MFdaveIreland
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MFdaveIreland


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    who's inferior? And how will forcing reluctang teenagers make anyone feel mroe superior?

    sorry, what I mean it's people who don't understand Irish feel less involved in things that those who do, my opinion just,


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    #1764
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    MFdaveIreland wrote: »
    sorry, what I mean it's people who don't understand Irish feel less involved in things that those who do, my opinion just,

    I've yet to encounter any aspect of real world society where a lack of Irish skills serves to exclude people. Though maybe if I didn't already speak it I might feel that way.


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    #1765
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,113 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    MFdaveIreland wrote: »
    sorry, what I mean it's people who don't understand Irish feel less involved in things that those who do, my opinion just,

    In a way yes, but it's not something non-Irish speakers are encouraged to get involved in.

    We don't feel inferior because, as pointed out in the post above this, it's not a life skill. We are no less well off for not speaking it and we don't feel as such.

    But the first thing to do to encourage people to get involved is to scrap compulsory Irish. It really does alienate more people than any other dicision, positive or negative, before they've even entered adulthood.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1766
    MFdaveIreland
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MFdaveIreland


    I agree with u, only feel that to learn something you have to be taught it or immersed in it . I would love to understand all Irish language, such things as gaa games I. Personally feel like an outsider not knowing what announcements are saying etc, my opinion though. Hope to take it up and join a few classes ,


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    #1767
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    MFdaveIreland wrote: »
    I agree with u, only feel that to learn something you have to be taught it or immersed in it . I would love to understand all Irish language, such things as gaa games I. Personally feel like an outsider not knowing what announcements are saying etc, my opinion though. Hope to take it up and join a few classes ,

    Well, since you are in the same situation as ninety percent of the population you don't qualify for the description "outsider".


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    #1768
    camel jockey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭camel jockey


    Irish has gone up in my estimation since Alanna joined Ros Na Rún.


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    #1769
    Interest in History
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭Interest in History


    Green Giant wrote: »
    I believe that a lot of the disdain for the Irish language in this country stems from the dismally flawed manner in which the Irish course at secondary school level is structured.....QUOTE]

    Dr Kevin Williams knows a thing or two about this and he recently said: 'there is no miracle method that will make learning a second language an easy task which is likely to recommend itself to reluctant students' and ' 'there exists no dramatic change of content or of method that will make (Irish) more accessible to those who do not wish to learn it.'

    But there is a miracle method of improving the atmosphere surrounding the learning of Irish in school. Start it in the first year of secondary school and after three years let students have the freedom to choose whether or not to continue studying it to the Leaving Cert. In short, end Compulsory Irish in the Leaving cert.

    (There is one politician who recommended this, the present Taoiseach.)


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    #1770
    Ticking and Bashing
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Ticking and Bashing


    I don't think it's fair to say that Irish is a dead language, waste of time etc...and I wouldn't agree with the thread title - 'how to revive the Irish language' - it's not dead!! If you visit any of the Gaeltacht regions you'll see this for yourself! People actually are surprised to see that it's spoken on a daily basis and that business is conducted through Irish. There's life outside Dublin ya know :D


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    #1771
    MFdaveIreland
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MFdaveIreland


    Nice to see I'm nt the only one, from the north it's understandable I'm nt going to here it often, if at all, but think it needs to be preserved


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