MY baby bitten on the head by friends dog.

Tea Tree · 06-11-2013 9:16pm

I think I saw a poster kicking around on facebook similar to the above but focused on a childs actions around dogs... what to teach your child not to do e.g. staring straight into a dogs face close up/ hugging an unknown dog etc.

Does anyone know that one? Quite useful I think as often people don't know what can be a potential trigger with some dogs.

DBB · 06-11-2013 9:19pm

Hi again op,
I just wanted to say good on you for taking all opinions, good and bad, on the chin... Not everyone would take criticism of the mistakes they made as well as you have.
But don't beat yourself up over it. A mistake was made on both sides, but you got away with it, and have learned a lesson. How many people can say they haven't made a booboo that they were lucky to get away with?
It sounds like your little girl isn't too worried, but try your best not to over-react and pass your worries onto her... Fear of something that's everywhere must be very debilitating!
I will say to you that many, indeed I'd nearly say most dogs have reservations about toddlers. They may be fine with infants, and fine with older kids, but toddlers are like a different species altogether, the way they move, and sound, and are oblivious to the discomfort they're causing to a nearby dog, and many dogs find it really difficult to tolerate them.
You say that your wee girl hugs your dog.... This is not a good habit to allow your little girl to get into: hugging is a seriously intrusive thing to do to a dog (unless the dog knows you really well), and is a scenario where the mildest dog will get agitated. In addition, if your daughter does it to your dog, who might be a patient saint, then in her mind she's okay to do it to all dogs. As you have found out, this is not the case!
I'd suggest you take some time to read up on Dr. Sophia Yin's writings about dogs and kids, she's one of the world's leading behaviourists in matters of kids and dogs (cocolola has linked to one of Yin's graphics).
Good luck op, keep the chin up!

ferretone · 06-11-2013 9:20pm

Tea Tree wrote: »

I think I saw a poster kicking around on facebook similar to the above but focused on a childs actions around dogs... what to teach your child not to do e.g. staring straight into a dogs face close up/ hugging an unknown dog etc.

Does anyone know that one? Quite useful I think as often people don't know what can be a potential trigger with some dogs.

Young Persons' Guide to Woofs and Growls

Tea Tree · 06-11-2013 9:23pm

ferretone wrote: »

Young Persons' Guide to Woofs and Growls

the very one!

DBB · 06-11-2013 9:26pm

Tea Tree wrote: »

the very one!

More here:

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/kids-and-dogs-how-kids-should-and-should-not-interact-with-dogs

kensiemac · 06-11-2013 9:27pm

cathy01 wrote: »

My little girl is two.I was visiting a friend today and my daughter was playing on the floor RIGHT beside my foot.My friends dog was there.My friends had been given it a cuddle, the dog was givent he paw and sit.My daughter gave him a rub.I looked up ,heard a noise, looked down and the dog just went for her.
She fell forward , the dog had its teeth in her heard.He was making a snarling noise.He seemed to be trying to get to her face or something.Its like he didn't want to bite her head.Does that even make sence.
My friend pushed the dog off her and I lifted her up.MY GOD, I cant even begin to tell you how scared I was.
She is ok, she has a bruise/Bite mark on her head. It didn't brake the skin.

I was crying, she was crying, my friend was crying.
My friend looked at me and said, I'm going to have to get him put down.
I don't know what to say, I think yes, the way the dog turned, and no she didn't pull him or slap him, she just sat beside me , on my foot nearly.
My heart is broke for my friend, but at the same time, my little girl was so lucky.
If I had been 2 seconds away from her God only knows.
I wont sleep tonight,I just keep seeing the image over and over.
I know the dog has never done this before.
Any thoughts. Please be nice, its not something me or my friend want.I know she feels terrible. She is as upset as I am, but I'm worried, he could turn again. She has young kids.
Thanks

Terrible story, but a dog should not be near a two year old.
As to being put down - absolutely no way, why should dog pay for your mistake. At worst he should be re-homed.

trades101 · 06-11-2013 9:34pm

kensiemac wrote: »

Terrible story, but a dog should not be near a two year old.
As to being put down - absolutely no way, why should dog pay for your mistake. At worst he should be re-homed.

Why move the dog out of a home it loves because of the OPS Mistake to leave a 2 year old with a dog

anniehoo · 06-11-2013 11:18pm

cathy01 wrote: »

Again thanks for the replies.
I'm not going to say the breed .because I think it doesn't really matter.
A dog is a dog is a dog.

I can't commend you enough for saying this and not stating what the breed is. The breed does not matter.

wrote:

She's a friend ,I am my daughters mam .it was my job and is my job to look out for her .if anyone should sue its my little girl.i would gladly hand over every penny I have . It would still be a small price for a big lesson learnt .

What an excellent and well rounded response cathy, considering it was your own child involved and not being influenced by the mixed replies so far. There's not many who would think like yourself, so I am beyond impressed with you being able to tell the difference between instant judgement and reasoned accountability, on both yours and your friends behalf. Well done.

Cocolola wrote: »

This pic I found very helpful for my niece and her parents once she started interacting with our dogs at home.

I hope you both can get past this in time and that it doesn't have a lasting effect on how you see dogs.

+1

A poster that should be widely used and available in Schools nationwide.

angelfire9 · 06-11-2013 11:41pm

I have a toddler (turns 3 at Christmas)
She has zero dog sense despite my best efforts to teach her :rolleyes:
We live in a cat house no doggies here (yet)
But the in laws have JRT's my parents have a JRT and I have friends with Rotties, Labs and Collies
I would never ever ever let her interact with a dog without 110% supervision
Sorry OP IMHO this is as much your fault as anyone's and I certainly wouldn't be looking for the dog to be PTS

meoklmrk91 · 06-11-2013 11:45pm

I was bitten numerous times as a small child, nothing major, nothing that ever broke the skin, just warning snaps, I loved animals especially dogs but was neve taught how to behave around them and wanted to pet and hug and love on every one I saw. every parent should know the warning signs of an uncomfortable dog, every child should be taught how to behave around them.

I was again attacked as a teen by a dog I was minding, that was a completely differnt story, he grabbed me by the arm and broke the skin, that was a completely different situation of a (very) large dog who had not been socialised properly.

I have to commend you OP, a lot of parents would have been screaming that the dog was dangerous and had to be put down. You had the good sense to look at the situation as a whole. There is a woman in the UK who's child was killed by a dog, now honestly my heart goes out to her, I couldn't imagine how difficult it is for her but she wants legislation to be put in place that all dogs have to be muzzled around children under 12. Now I'm sorry but that's only going to cause more problems as the dog is going to eventually figure out that every time a child comes around they have to have a contraption put on their face that they don't like. They are going to think of children negatively.

I am very careful with my own dog around children, a friend of mines kid is like me when I was a child, he wants to hug him and lie on him and is just generally all over him, I have to watch him very carefully to try and teach him that he needs to give him his space, now my dog loves kids and loves to see this fella coming so he can give him a good licking but one day when I was out of the room and my dog was in his crate I think he crowded him and since then when he is in the crate he growls at and is fearful of children, this was my fault for not supervising them properly, me and my friend were in the other room. He also now depsises the crate as he connects it with that incident and has only started using it again in the last few days, that was months a ago! He is perfect outside of it in any other situation, still loves kids and that little boy but it definitely made me more careful, all dogs, even those who adore children like my guy have their limits.

anniehoo · 07-11-2013 12:09am

I made a dog "dance" i.e. held it's front paws and balance on his hindlegs in the schoolyard when I was 9 years old.I was showing off. Big mistake on my behalf.

It didn't end well, for me.I STILL have the scar...25 years later on my left wrist that took an entire month to heal!!!

It was 100% my fault.

My parents never knew about it and still don't know about it.I knew the dog would get blamed when it was my fault at the time (the whole infection issue I now only baffle myself about because I hid an open wound for weeks).You gotta laugh at the 80s. :eek:

Dog respect 1, My Fail 0

ferretone · 07-11-2013 12:14am

ETA:

anniehoo wrote: »

My parents never knew about it and still don't know about it.I knew the dog would get blamed when it was my fault at the time (the whole infection issue I now only baffle myself about because I hid an open wound for weeks).You gotta laugh at the 80s. :eek:

Dog respect 1, My Fail 0

Lol, are you afraid if you told them now they'd go after gettin' the dog pts?

ETA: Have to say, though, I admire 9-year-old you's wisdom and determination, in recognising who was to blame, and in keeping it under wraps, top protect the dog

07-11-2013 12:22am

Sorry to hear OP scary for you and your child.

Why not disclose what type of breed it is?

ferretone · 07-11-2013 12:24am

Oops didn't mean to post again, sorry.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 12:26am

420 wrote: »

Sorry to hear OP scary for you and your child.

Why not disclose what type of breed it is?

How would that help?

wexie · 07-11-2013 12:29am

ferretone wrote: »

How would that help?

It won't in this context.

It probably would help a behavourist but I'd like to think they might be able to tell once they see the dog

ferretone · 07-11-2013 12:35am

wexie wrote: »

It won't in this context.

It probably would help a behavourist but I'd like to think they might be able to tell once they see the dog

I'd doubt they'd arrange a consult right here on the open forum, so perhaps the owner might disclose a little more info when talking to the behaviourist anyway

ETA: It might also help a troll who wanted to derail the thread with a rant about X breed of dog and the ne'er-do-wells that own them, now I come to think of it! :rolleyes:

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 12:57am

borderlinemeath wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish, and is subscribing to pack theories that have been disproven time and time again. Dogs DON'T think like this. They don't have any idea about superiority within the family. The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

With all due respect, social theories for dogs are like those for humans, just theories. All theories are subject to investigation and in many cases two conflicting theories can be seen as factual by different, equally reputable sources. There are links with dogs who are allowed too much free reign and being what can be construed as dismissive of it's owners commands. But that isn't actually the topic on discussion here.

OP I am so glad your child is okay, there is nothing more terrifying for a mother. Here it is a case of child being left on a floor in a house where a dog is in its own territory and in some cases, so dogs can become agitated. As another poster said, sudden movements, severe lack of comprehension of warning signs and high pitched voices are not something many dogs enjoy.

That said, when children are invited into a house, the owner must think of the childs and dogs well being. Putting the dog in another room or in a crate, though annoying for the dog, is the most recommended action. Kids will be kids, and dogs will be dogs, neither one is truly to blame.

But pointing the finger will get no one anywhere. There are a few things that I see as possible outcomes your friend can consider, not all I agree with;

1 - putting the dog down. Speaks for itself really.

2 - Assessing the dog for physical issues. Perhaps bringing it to a vet to see if there is a physical issue for the dog reacting. My old dog savaged my hand as a child when it rubbed accidentally against his stomach one day (we found out later he had cancer so it must have hurt something terrible when I rubbed it)

3 - Bringing the animal to a properly qualified animal behaviourist. There are a few people posing as behaviourists that really are just reading some books and charging people for consults using methods not really recommended. Perhaps suggest to your friend if they are in the Dublin area of the behaviourist hired by UCD as a lecturer, she comes highly recommended (though I'd say she is not cheap, which may be an issue)

4 - Treat it as a learning curve - It is now clear this dog, for some reason, is not really good with young children, the owner can choose to accept this and work around it. Either by not inviting children into the home, or removing the dog as a threat when there is a child in the room.

I hope you, your child and your friend are able to get over the shock of this, it was a terrible thing to happen.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 1:06am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

With all due respect, social theories for dogs are like those for humans, just theories. All theories are subject to investigation and in many cases two conflicting theories can be seen as factual by different, equally reputable sources. There are links with dogs who are allowed too much free reign and being what can be construed as dismissive of it's owners commands.

Dogs get dismissive of their owners commands because they don't make it worth their while to pay attention to them. From the dog's pov, if the behaviour required is not enjoyable or rewarding in itself, then the reward used to condition it must be sufficiently highly valued to offset the unpleasantness or boringness of said behaviour.

If the consequences of disobeying the command are desirable enough, eg. continuing to run around loose annoying passers-by, and the reward for obeying is a bit, well meh, and with the huge disadvantage of the great playtime they are missing, well then owner gets disregarded as a boring spoilsport, who often shouts at them for some bizarre reason once their fun is finished.

No need for any convoluted pack theories to explain that one

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 1:10am

ferretone wrote: »

Dogs get dismissive of their owners commands because they don't make it worth their while to pay attention to them. From the dog's pov, if the behaviour required is not enjoyable or rewarding in itself, then the reward used to condition it must be sufficiently highly valued to offset the unpleasantness or boringness of said behaviour.

If the consequences of disobeying the command are desirable enough, eg. continuing to run around loose annoying passers-by, and the reward for obeying is a bit, well meh, and with the huge disadvantage of the great playtime they are missing, well then owner gets disregarded as a boring spoilsport, who often shouts at them for some bizarre reason once their fun is finished.

No need for any convoluted pack theories to explain that one

Indeed, I myself do not believe in a pack theory, but like with kids, there is need for a different sort of a hierarchy, if that makes sense. Not this "Alpha" BS, but another sort of "you won't always get a treat, but you will still have to sit when told to" way. Like with kids though, they will test the waters, and will have to be corrected, hence why I said that there are links with the dog being left do its own thing and ignored commands, but lets face it, that is hardly rocket science.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 1:14am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Indeed, I myself do not believe in a pack theory, but like with kids, there is need for a different sort of a hierarchy, if that makes sense. Not this "Alpha" BS, but another sort of "you won't always get a treat, but you will still have to sit when told to" way. Like with kids though, they will test the waters, and will have to be corrected, hence why I said that there are links with the dog being left do its own thing and ignored commands, but lets face it, that is hardly rocket science.

Not sure of source and stuff, but I believe dogs actually respond better to reinforcement when it's staged back gradually, so they don't get a treat every time they respond in the desired way, but just now and again. It makes them try harder to earn the reward or something

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 1:21am

ferretone wrote: »

Not sure of source and stuff, but I believe dogs actually respond better to reinforcement when it's staged back gradually, so they don't get a treat every time they respond in the desired way, but just now and again. It makes them try harder to earn the reward or something

All they want to do is please their owner.If they know there is a chance of a treat, they will try and try until they get one.

mandylevo · 07-11-2013 1:39am

I have dogs, and they spend most of their time indoors, I also have a 18 month old grand daughter and I would never have the dogs in the house when she is here, you never know how a dog will react to having a young child in their pressence especially if they are not used to them. This responsibility for this lies fully on your friends shoulders she was negligent to leave the dog in the house with your child and in doing so has caused both you and your daughter huge emotional trauma as well as putting her dog in a position where lets face it she may have to put it down or at least rehome through a responsible animal shelter because she herself won't be able to get over what's happened. The only thing you can do now is try to make sure your daughter doesnt end up with a fear of dogs because of whats happened. I hope this has made your friend realise that part of being a responsible pet owner means not putting her dogs in a position where they could hurt someone and no matter how well she thinks she knows her pet you can never predict how they will react to people outside of their home.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 1:43am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

All they want to do is please their owner.If they know there is a chance of a treat, they will try and try until they get one.

Of course, then there are people like my aunt. She trains her dogs to compete in agility and tracking, and all through their lives there are generally new things they are learning, and get treated each time they make the latest step on the path to that, new-ish things, which still get treated a lot. And also older "tricks" and set pieces, such that if she says, "whatcha gonna do?", they basically have to guess which one she's looking for to get the reward.

Boy do those dogs fall over themselves trying to please her!

aN.Droid · 07-11-2013 1:46am

mandylevo wrote: »

I have dogs, and they spend most of their time indoors, I also have a 18 month old grand daughter and I would never have the dogs in the house when she is here, you never know how a dog will react to having a young child in their pressence especially if they are not used to them. This responsibility for this lies fully on your friends shoulders she was negligent to leave the dog in the house with your child and in doing so has caused both you and your daughter huge emotional trauma as well as putting her dog in a position where lets face it she may have to put it down or at least rehome through a responsible animal shelter because she herself won't be able to get over what's happened. The only thing you can do now is try to make sure your daughter doesnt end up with a fear of dogs because of whats happened. I hope this has made your friend realise that part of being a responsible pet owner means not putting her dogs in a position where they could hurt someone and no matter how well she thinks she knows her pet you can never predict how they will react to people outside of their home.

Mostly nonsense. The blame is not 100% on the friend. You say that part of being a pet owner is not putting the pets in a situation like this? What about the parents responsibility to not put a child at risk? Having a young child in the same room as a dog is not a good idea nor is it responsible and fair play to the op she has owned up to this fact.

Responsibility and blame are to be shared in this scenario. And neither will hopefully make the same mistake twice.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 1:47am

mandylevo wrote: »

I hope this has made your friend realise that part of being a responsible pet owner means not putting her dogs in a position where they could hurt someone and no matter how well she thinks she knows her pet you can never predict how they will react to people outside of their home.

I think from what the op has said that it very much has. As others have said already, we all make mistakes. The smartest of us don't repeat them. These 2 parents had a sharp wake-up call, and nobody was seriously harmed. You may be very sure neither will be repeating their mistake.

ETA: Cross-posted, sorry you said the same, but yours was better :P

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 1:48am

ferretone wrote: »

Of course, then there are people like my aunt. She trains her dogs to compete in agility and tracking, and all through their lives there are generally new things they are learning, and get treated each time they make the latest step on the path to that, new-ish things, which still get treated a lot. And also older "tricks" and set pieces, such that if she says, "whatcha gonna do?", they basically have to guess which one she's looking for to get the reward.

Boy do those dogs fall over themselves trying to please her!

Better trained than any man!!!

It is actually one of the leading causes of dog aggression to not have your dog occupied with training. If the mind is not stimulated they go a bit mad.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 1:49am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Better trained than any man!!!

It is actually one of the leading causes of dog aggression to not have your dog occupied with training. If the mind is not stimulated they go a bit mad.

Just like the rest of us! :P

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 1:50am

ferretone wrote: »

Just like the rest of us! :P

But that is the thing, dogs are a lot like humans, they need mental and physical stimulation.

ferretone · 07-11-2013 2:00am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Better trained than any man!!!

Also for some reason they all seem to live very long and happy lives

ferretone · 07-11-2013 2:49am

Limericks wrote: »

Mostly nonsense. The blame is not 100% on the friend. You say that part of being a pet owner is not putting the pets in a situation like this? What about the parents responsibility to not put a child at risk? Having a young child in the same room as a dog is not a good idea nor is it responsible and fair play to the op she has owned up to this fact.

Responsibility and blame are to be shared in this scenario. And neither will hopefully make the same mistake twice.

Hmm, that being said, now that I think about it, I would say there is, in everyday terms, a little bit more onus on the dog owner than the visiting parent in these sorts of circumstances.

Not that every parent shouldn't be versed on safe behaviour and observation regarding dogs and small children; they absolutely should.

But given that many more households have children than dogs, and that the latter recommendation is not widely observed, it really is incumbent on dog owners to be ultra-careful, and somewhat informed when allowing their dog to interact with the little ones.

Doesn't have any impact on the current thread however, as both parents are dog-owners, so they both relaxed a guard they need to be always aware of in the given ways.

Should equally serve as a reminder to any of us other readers, to keep brushed up on body language, protocol etc, when allowing our dogs to interact with kids, especially other people's kids.

J.P.M · 07-11-2013 3:13am

Common sense all was all that was needed.

borderlinemeath · 07-11-2013 9:00am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

With all due respect, social theories for dogs are like those for humans, just theories. All theories are subject to investigation and in many cases two conflicting theories can be seen as factual by different, equally reputable sources. There are links with dogs who are allowed too much free reign and being what can be construed as dismissive of it's owners commands. But that isn't actually the topic on discussion here.

But when a poster pops up and starts talking dominance/hierarchy/interloper 'wolf speak', I would bet the winter heating budget that they were watching a bit too much Cesar Milan than reading up on the actual studies of captive wolf packs that Zimen carried out that were then applied to domestic dogs. And CM is NOT a reputable source of information. There's far too many trainers and behaviourists that still subscribe to some of the outdated theories that dogs need a 'firm hand' and use punishment techniques over positive reinforcement. Dogs that don't do what they're owner wants them to, usually do so because they either won't get rewarded or they know they will get punished. I don't think I've met a dog that won't do what you want it to for SOMETHING, be it food, toys, show of the lead for walks etc. I think that people who find their dogs dismissive of their commands just don't understand what motivates their dog.

ZiabR · 07-11-2013 9:06am

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

Sorry, what? This is a friend, i doubt the OP is going to sue her or call the gardai. The dog needs to be put down alright, sadly.

If my dog did it, it would break my heart but it would be put down.

Optimalprimerib · 07-11-2013 9:14am

It really angers me that the concensus is to put the animal down. It got scared and made mistake. With the right behavioural training it should be ok.

I did notice however with our old dog, who was as placid and friendly as could be, really fid not like children and therefore was terrified of them.
I did not trust her one bit even though she never bit anyone.

I hope ye make the right decision on this and am really sorry for the heartache that this incident brings.

Duckjob · 07-11-2013 9:19am

If you weren't looking at the moment it happened, is it possible your daughter scratched/pinched/tugged on his hair or otherwise hurt him ?

We have a daughter under 2, and although our doggie is great with her we supervise any interaction between them ultra-closely, because at that age, kids simply don't have to necessary sense or the co-ordination to interact with an animal the same way they should. A lot of parents are shockingly lax at impressing on their children the importance of treating a dog (or any animal) properly.

I can well imagine how upsetting it was to witness, and I hope you and your daughter can put it behind you.

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 9:57am

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But when a poster pops up and starts talking dominance/hierarchy/interloper 'wolf speak', I would bet the winter heating budget that they were watching a bit too much Cesar Milan than reading up on the actual studies of captive wolf packs that Zimen carried out that were then applied to domestic dogs. And CM is NOT a reputable source of information. There's far too many trainers and behaviourists that still subscribe to some of the outdated theories that dogs need a 'firm hand' and use punishment techniques over positive reinforcement. Dogs that don't do what they're owner wants them to, usually do so because they either won't get rewarded or they know they will get punished. I don't think I've met a dog that won't do what you want it to for SOMETHING, be it food, toys, show of the lead for walks etc. I think that people who find their dogs dismissive of their commands just don't understand what motivates their dog.

Oh of course. I watch Cesar Milan from time to time myself, but as I said in another post, hierarchy is part of a dogs pack (family) life, but not as he puts it. Dogs like knowing there is structure in a home (like children) and need to know their place in it (like children) and just like children, they will challenge it from time to time. I suppose that is why we see them as integral family members, they are very much like children in some respects. Tidier and easier to train though IMO

There is actually theories being studied at the moment that the "Wolfpack" system is wrong, they are more complicated than people assumed. It isn't just alpha, beta, omega and several other Greek letters apparently, it is a finely woven system.

DBB · 07-11-2013 10:08am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There is actually theories being studied at the moment that the "Wolfpack" system is wrong, they are more complicated than people assumed. It isn't just alpha, beta, omega and several other Greek letters apparently, it is a finely woven system.

At the moment?
I think the research you're referring to is very well established.
I'd also dispute your contention that bold dogs are motivated to be bold because of some sort of perceived hierarchy. It suggests that they're motivated by rebellion against a greater power. I'm afraid there's no evidence to suggest that's true. Dogs are bold because being bold works for them. Good dogs are good because being good works for them. No need to complicate it with stuff for which not a shred of evidence has been found, indeed for which all the evidence points against.
As a matter of interest, is this stuff you're saying linked to what your OH is being told in vet college by the lady you referred to in an earlier post?

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 10:17am

DBB wrote: »

At the moment?
I think the research you're referring to is very well established.
I'd also dispute your contention that bold dogs are motivated to be bold because of some sort of perceived hierarchy. It suggests that they're motivated by rebellion against a greater power. I'm afraid there's no evidence to suggest that's true. Dogs are bold because being bold works for them. Good dogs are good because being good works for them. No need to complicate it with stuff for which not a shred of evidence has been found, indeed for which all the evidence points against.
As a matter of interest, is this stuff you're saying linked to what your OH is being told in vet college by the lady you referred to in an earlier post?

The research I was referring to was regarding the mentality not in the wolfpack theory in domestic dogs, but in actual wolves. They are studying wild wolf packs in Yellowstone in a more complex way these days.

I say dogs test the boundaries, that is obvious, even the best behaved dog will do that from time to time. And in my previous posts I said bold dogs are bold because there is no structure, by which I mean bad behaviours are not corrected, again nothing about that is rocket science.

The behaviourist hired by UCD lectures the vet students to advise pet owners on the positive reinforcement technique to train their dogs. And I have to say, I think it is a great method.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-11-2013 10:23am

Just out of interest, what kind of dog was it?

DBB · 07-11-2013 10:23am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The research I was referring to was regarding the mentality not in the wolfpack theory in domestic dogs, but in actual wolves. They are studying wild wolf packs in Yellowstone in a more complex way these days.

Yes, that's the research I mean. Research into how wolf society functions in the wild is very well established. It's not new.

I say dogs test the boundaries, that is obvious, even the best behaved dog will do that from time to time. And in my previous posts I said bold dogs are bold because there is no structure, by which I mean bad behaviours are not corrected, again nothing about that is rocket science.

I got confused by your previous post so, where you said there is a hierarchy. Testing boundaries is not the same as rebelling against some sort of hierarchy.

The behaviourist hired by UCD lectures the vet students to advise pet owners on the positive reinforcement technique to train their dogs. And I have to say, I think it is a great method.

Yes, I know who she is, but I'm not talking about use of positive reinforcement in training. I'm asking whether your take on hierarchies, and your info on the research into wolf society, are coming from her?

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 10:23am

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Just out of interest, what kind of dog was it?

Actually that is an interesting question, some breeds are not renowned for their compatibility with young children.

DBB · 07-11-2013 10:25am

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

Just out of interest, what kind of dog was it?

The op has already said they don't want to get into this.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-11-2013 10:26am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Actually that is an interesting question, some breeds are not renowned for their compatibility with young children.

If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.

wexie · 07-11-2013 10:27am

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Actually that is an interesting question, some breeds are not renowned for their compatibility with young children.

In which case a responsible owner should have been aware of this.
Unfortunately there are lots of people that will just go out and get a dog because they like the look of it (ah....isn't he gorgeous? He's so cute and fluffy!!) without having much of an idea of what character traits they can expect from the breed.

wexie · 07-11-2013 10:28am

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.

And from what I gather OP has done this for a very specific reason which I can only commend her for.

And for what it's worth my responses wouldn't have been any different if it had been a staffie, a husky or a rottweiler.

wolfpawnat · 07-11-2013 10:30am

DBB wrote: »

Yes, that's the research I mean. Research into how wolf society functions in the wild is very well established. It's not new.

Really? I have to start checking what date the copyright for the programmes I am watching are from. I saw it not too long ago on Nat Geo Wild so I assumed it was new enough

DBB wrote: »

I got confused by your previous post so, where you said there is a hierarchy. Testing boundaries is not the same as rebelling against some sort of hierarchy.

No, I said in my post, that they test boundaries, but if a dog goes unchecked, it will just ignore the owner. Same as children really. But that they like structured households, dogs are known to like routine, and that has to stem from the owner. Also humans cannot see themselves as an animal's equal, we have to show there is a sort of social order in the home, that somethings, like a childs bedroom, are out of bounds, by doing so, there is a hierarchical sort of order, but none of this Cesar Milan "Alpha" crap.

DBB wrote: »

Yes, I know who she is, but I'm not talking about use of positive reinforcement in training. I'm asking whether your take on hierarchies, and your info on the research into wolf society, are coming from her?

No, the wolf thing was Nat Geo, and I don't attend her classes, so I have no idea what she says. I only know of the positive reinforcement thing because my friend got a rescue dog and rang us asking about what would be the best way to train her little guy. The last thing anyone wants to talk about after a day at work/college is work or college. I don't ask my OH to relay his day in full to me, just if there is anything interesting, same as any couple.

Vinz Mesrine · 07-11-2013 10:32am

wexie wrote: »

And from what I gather OP has done this for a very specific reason which I can only commend her for.

And for what it's worth my responses wouldn't have been any different if it had been a staffie, a husky or a rottweiler.

Well if it was a JRT or something similar I would love the OP to say so just to put the people who give out about staffies etc being the only dogs capable of this in their place.

stoneill · 07-11-2013 10:33am

Dog needs to be put down.

DBB · 07-11-2013 10:34am

Vinz Mesrine wrote: »

If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.

This is a rather twisted way of looking at it. The op asked a question (should the dog be euthanased), and stated what level of damage the dog had caused.
To answer the question, the breed of dog is immaterial. Whether it was a Chihuahua or a Great Dane, the fact remains that any dog who bites, but who seriously limits the damage done, is almost always salvageable.
The breed or type of the dog may be significant for future management and rehabilitation protocols, but for the purposes of this thread, breed is insignificant.

Edited to add: oops vinz mesrine, reading your subsequent posts, I think I misconstrued the angle you were coming from! Don't mind me :-D

MY baby bitten on the head by friends dog.

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