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MY baby bitten on the head by friends dog.

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    #92
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    The research I was referring to was regarding the mentality not in the wolfpack theory in domestic dogs, but in actual wolves. They are studying wild wolf packs in Yellowstone in a more complex way these days.

    Yes, that's the research I mean. Research into how wolf society functions in the wild is very well established. It's not new.
    I say dogs test the boundaries, that is obvious, even the best behaved dog will do that from time to time. And in my previous posts I said bold dogs are bold because there is no structure, by which I mean bad behaviours are not corrected, again nothing about that is rocket science.

    I got confused by your previous post so, where you said there is a hierarchy. Testing boundaries is not the same as rebelling against some sort of hierarchy.
    The behaviourist hired by UCD lectures the vet students to advise pet owners on the positive reinforcement technique to train their dogs. And I have to say, I think it is a great method.

    Yes, I know who she is, but I'm not talking about use of positive reinforcement in training. I'm asking whether your take on hierarchies, and your info on the research into wolf society, are coming from her?


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    #93
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Vinz Mesrine wrote: »
    Just out of interest, what kind of dog was it?

    Actually that is an interesting question, some breeds are not renowned for their compatibility with young children.


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    #94
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Vinz Mesrine wrote: »
    Just out of interest, what kind of dog was it?

    The op has already said they don't want to get into this.


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    #95
    Vinz Mesrine
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,833 ✭✭✭Vinz Mesrine


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Actually that is an interesting question, some breeds are not renowned for their compatibility with young children.

    If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.


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    #96
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Actually that is an interesting question, some breeds are not renowned for their compatibility with young children.

    In which case a responsible owner should have been aware of this.
    Unfortunately there are lots of people that will just go out and get a dog because they like the look of it (ah....isn't he gorgeous? He's so cute and fluffy!!) without having much of an idea of what character traits they can expect from the breed.


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    #97
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Vinz Mesrine wrote: »
    If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.

    And from what I gather OP has done this for a very specific reason which I can only commend her for.

    And for what it's worth my responses wouldn't have been any different if it had been a staffie, a husky or a rottweiler.


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    #98
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    DBB wrote: »
    Yes, that's the research I mean. Research into how wolf society functions in the wild is very well established. It's not new.

    Really? I have to start checking what date the copyright for the programmes I am watching are from. I saw it not too long ago on Nat Geo Wild so I assumed it was new enough :o
    DBB wrote: »
    I got confused by your previous post so, where you said there is a hierarchy. Testing boundaries is not the same as rebelling against some sort of hierarchy.

    No, I said in my post, that they test boundaries, but if a dog goes unchecked, it will just ignore the owner. Same as children really. But that they like structured households, dogs are known to like routine, and that has to stem from the owner. Also humans cannot see themselves as an animal's equal, we have to show there is a sort of social order in the home, that somethings, like a childs bedroom, are out of bounds, by doing so, there is a hierarchical sort of order, but none of this Cesar Milan "Alpha" crap.
    DBB wrote: »
    Yes, I know who she is, but I'm not talking about use of positive reinforcement in training. I'm asking whether your take on hierarchies, and your info on the research into wolf society, are coming from her?

    No, the wolf thing was Nat Geo, and I don't attend her classes, so I have no idea what she says. I only know of the positive reinforcement thing because my friend got a rescue dog and rang us asking about what would be the best way to train her little guy. The last thing anyone wants to talk about after a day at work/college is work or college. I don't ask my OH to relay his day in full to me, just if there is anything interesting, same as any couple. :)


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    #99
    Vinz Mesrine
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,833 ✭✭✭Vinz Mesrine


    wexie wrote: »
    And from what I gather OP has done this for a very specific reason which I can only commend her for.

    And for what it's worth my responses wouldn't have been any different if it had been a staffie, a husky or a rottweiler.

    Well if it was a JRT or something similar I would love the OP to say so just to put the people who give out about staffies etc being the only dogs capable of this in their place.


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    #100
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    Dog needs to be put down.


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    #101
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Vinz Mesrine wrote: »
    If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.

    This is a rather twisted way of looking at it. The op asked a question (should the dog be euthanased), and stated what level of damage the dog had caused.
    To answer the question, the breed of dog is immaterial. Whether it was a Chihuahua or a Great Dane, the fact remains that any dog who bites, but who seriously limits the damage done, is almost always salvageable.
    The breed or type of the dog may be significant for future management and rehabilitation protocols, but for the purposes of this thread, breed is insignificant.

    Edited to add: oops vinz mesrine, reading your subsequent posts, I think I misconstrued the angle you were coming from! Don't mind me :-D


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    #102
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Vinz Mesrine wrote: »
    If the lady stated in her first post that a staffie did this then the thread would be 30 pages long full of people saying that the dog was the devil. But no mention of the dog in the original post means a lot of people saying that putting the dog to sleep is unnecessary.

    Very true, although anyone with the tiniest bit of knowledge of staffs knows they are great family pets! :)
    wexie wrote: »
    In which case a responsible owner should have been aware of this.
    Unfortunately there are lots of people that will just go out and get a dog because they like the look of it (ah....isn't he gorgeous? He's so cute and fluffy!!) without having much of an idea of what character traits they can expect from the breed.

    That is a concern, sure I have seen people who walk about 10 minutes a day getting Sibs because of their look and are annoyed when the poor thing is going mad because it has no exercise. When I am going down the road with my kids and I see a dog, I always get them to keep their distance, but with some breeds more than others. A border collie for example, but as you said, many people get a dog for appearance not because it is a good fit for their situation.

    You also have a few owners who think their dog will do no wrong, forgetting of course it is a living breathing thing that has the ability to reach its limits of a situation.


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    #103
    KwackerJack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭KwackerJack


    If a dog attacks anyone for no sensible reason it should be put down. Simple!

    Yes they may not be the pack hungry animals that once roamed earth but they are still animals!

    Were human and 'civilised' but look at the terrible things we do, murder, rape, war!

    It instinct and a dog that has attacked will attack again just like a rapist, murder may likely re-offend!

    Were all 'animals' really at the end of it all. We just stand up straight.


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    #104
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Really? I have to start checking what date the copyright for the programmes I am watching are from. I saw it not too long ago on Nat Geo Wild so I assumed it was new enough :o

    As with any research, documentaries about its findings tends to be some years behind, because the research needs to spend a few years being kicked around, questioned, and reviewed in the scientific literature before "going public" :-)

    No, I said in my post, that they test boundaries, but if a dog goes unchecked, it will just ignore the owner. Same as children really. But that they like structured households, dogs are known to like routine, and that has to stem from the owner. Also humans cannot see themselves as an animal's equal, we have to show there is a sort of social order in the home, that somethings, like a childs bedroom, are out of bounds, by doing so, there is a hierarchical sort of order, but none of this Cesar Milan "Alpha" crap.

    Thanks for clarifying: as I said I was a little confused by the phraseology you used in previous posts :-)

    The last thing anyone wants to talk about after a day at work/college is work or college. I don't ask my OH to relay his day in full to me, just if there is anything interesting, same as any couple. :)

    That's not what I was implying! I just wondered where some of the things you said were filtering through from. As you have quite regularly in the past discussed stuff here that your OH has learned in college, I wondered were your posts re behavioural stuff relaying from what he was taught in college. I'm familiar with what they're being taught in UCD, and it's not always as up to date as it should be, particularly in the area of pack theory!


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    #105
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    KwackerJack wrote: »
    If a dog attacks anyone for no sensible reason it should be put down. Simple!

    Yes they may not be the pack hungry animals that once roamed earth but they are still animals!

    Were human and 'civilised' but look at the terrible things we do, murder, rape, war!

    It instinct and a dog that has attacked will attack again just like a rapist, murder may likely re-offend!

    Were all 'animals' really at the end of it all. We just stand up straight.

    Attack is an interesting word in this context.....do you really think the dog in question 'attacked'?

    I have a mix breed, a good bit bigger than an average GSD. During the summer friends of ours came over with their dog who's about the size of a springer.

    The dogs were playing happily for a bit but after a while mine had enough but the other dog insisted on harassing him in order to get him to play.

    Mine growled, no effect, so eventually grabbed him, held him for a bit and when the yelping stopped let him go.

    Now this is a short haired dog and there wasn't a mark on him. Friends were very upset that my dog 'attacked' theirs.

    So I had to ask them : if my dog, who's several times larger, both size and weight, really had wanted to 'attack' their dog. Would he be sitting under the table withouth a mark on him or would we be on the way to the vet (at best).

    I can tell you what I thought, what about you?

    It's hard to tell what happened here but I'd argue that the dog in the OP didn't 'attack'. That was a warning.


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    #106
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Face to face from a strange child trying to hug the dog where the dog hasn't a clue it's a hug and just knows his personal space is being invaded big time and warning signals aren't working and freaks out, is not "no reason" imo, if that is what happened


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    #107
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    KwackerJack wrote: »
    If a dog attacks anyone for no sensible reason it should be put down. Simple!

    Well then, this dog should be okay, because given the information the op posted, it's likely that this dog did have a sensible reason to "attack".... An "attack" which left a bruise on the baby's head.
    Luckily, there are people out there who are qualified to help the owner make an appropriate call on what happens next, rather than owners being forced to heed hysterical, nonsensical stuff like the above posted, and anyone else who's calling for this dog's blood based on old wives' tales made up by people who did not know what they were talking about!

    Whilst we're at it, I think we should call for a ban on all sharp objects in houses where there are children. Also hard surfaces. And electrical equipment. Water containers too, the child might drown. High surfaces in case they fall off them. Oh, and other humans, in case they hit the child or hurt them in any way. Children should also be banned from going outside. God, it's so DANGEROUS outside :-o .


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    #108
    Dotsie~tmp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,427 ✭✭✭Dotsie~tmp


    <snip>

    Dotsietmp, do not post in this thread again.
    Do not reply to this edit on thread.
    Thanks,
    DBB


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    #109
    ShaShaBear
    Registered Users Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭ShaShaBear


    I've seen a lot of comments here pertaining that "No dog should be trusted with a child".

    Might I point you all to my own opinion, which is that "No child should be trusted with a dog".

    I am almost 5 weeks pregnant, and we have already begun to prepare my dog for a new arrival. And he has given warning bites before, and snapped at one child about a year back. That incident went by really fast, while my mother was hysterical and demanded he be euthanised, the 3-year-old admitted that he had jumped off the couch and stood on the dog, but the doggie only bit "near" him (snapped) and didn't bite his skin. If someone hopped on top of me, they would likely get a shove, never mind a snap!

    I know my dog superbly well, and he has had supervised interactions with many kids. My best friend's nephew played with him one day, and I was able to tell after 10 minutes of eagle-eye watching, that Shadow was displaying signs of being uncomfortable, and baby was removed from the situation. All Shadow did was put his tail down, his ears back, and turned his back to the child while watching him out of the corner of his eyes.

    OP, it was traumatic I am sure, but I am also sure if you had been watching and aware of what to watch for, you would have been given sufficient warning by the dog before the bite occured.


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    #110
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    ShaShaBear wrote: »
    I've seen a lot of comments here pertaining that "No dog should be trusted with a child".

    Might I point you all to my own opinion, which is that "No child should be trusted with a dog". .

    Very very true, they just have no doggy sense when they're little. My 2 are only starting to learn now and they're 4 and 5, even then we keep a constant eye on them.
    ShaShaBear wrote: »
    I am almost 5 weeks pregnant, and we have already begun to prepare my dog for a new arrival.

    Many congratulations!!


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    #111
    ShaShaBear
    Registered Users Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭ShaShaBear


    wexie wrote: »
    Very very true, they just have no doggy sense when they're little. My 2 are only starting to learn now and they're 4 and 5, even then we keep a constant eye on them.



    Many congratulations!!

    Thanks :D
    Sometimes I like to dream that I am giving birth to a litter of puppies, but we're pretty sure it's going to be human :p

    My mother minds a little 1 year old and his hands and legs FLY all over the place! Sometimes he gives me a fright! At even 2 they are still learning coordination and motor function and something as simple as raising their arm really fast could easily have spooked the dog, ESPECIALLY if he may have gotten a smack in the past!


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    #112
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    ShaShaBear wrote: »
    Thanks :D
    Sometimes I like to dream that I am giving birth to a litter of puppies, but we're pretty sure it's going to be human :p

    My mother minds a little 1 year old and his hands and legs FLY all over the place! Sometimes he gives me a fright! At even 2 they are still learning coordination and motor function and something as simple as raising their arm really fast could easily have spooked the dog, ESPECIALLY if he may have gotten a smack in the past!

    Congratulations Shashabear!!

    And I think that what you posted above is one of the funniest things I've ever read here!!:D:D


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    #113
    SJT1
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭SJT1


    cathy01 wrote: »
    Hi all.it would brake my heart of the dog was to be put down.my daughter didn't hit it or pull it.honestly I think the only reason it did t break the skin was because my friend was so quick and my baby was right beside us.her dog seemed to bark at first when we got there but that's because he didn't know us.she does have kids three,the youngest is twelve.
    I would hate to loose her as a friend and will never go into her house if the dog is there.i do think there could be options .if she put the dog into a room she. Visitors called but would that really be an option.
    I think my daughter was very lucky today.
    I ,at first thought yes it's like an unspoken rule once a dog bites ESP a child then it had to be put down.i did think this would be the outcome.
    I'm glad I posted now .ill talk to her and maybe make sure he has never bitten before. Anyone not just a child.hopefully it was a once off.im torn I'm writing this and then read the headlines about the other little girl.im such a dope for taking a chance for letting her off my knee.
    I am now afraid of dogs.and I have one.
    I just hope my friend makes the right choice in a very difficult decision.but I think deep Down I could never live with myself if her family lost their dog because of a situation I helped make .my daughter definitely didn't pull the dog.
    Our dog is used to her .she would call him and pet him and somedays hug him.hes part of our family and I'd hate to have to have him put to sleep .
    Really what I was hoping for as a reply is Dont worry Cathy maybe it was a once off.the Reply that if he wanted to break the skin he would off is scary.honestly I think it's because we where quick.
    Anyway thanks everyone for the advice.im going to txt my friend and hope shes ok .my little girl is bruised ,she has a mark on her cheek but I thi k its more from the bang when her face was on the ground.shes telling people
    "Bold wow wow teeth " so she is talking about it.cuddles helped as did sweets.
    Thanks all.

    Hi OP, glad to hear your daughter is alright. I have to admire your maturity in this situation and not running to the "dog has to be put down" attitude straight away and wanting to work through this which is very important, just remember while this dog is just your friends pet, its also a part of their family.

    At the end of the day, the dog was just being a dog, it's an animal, if it wanted to do some serious damage to your little girl, it would of but decided not to. I do think the dog needs help though, so the next time its around a child they're not used to, that it knows how to socialize with children but more IMPORTANTLY, the dog owner know's how to socialize with their dog when visitors come around.

    As someone who was seriously attached by dogs as a child I speak from experience when I say I know what it's like to have a fear of dogs. My suggestion to you and your daughter is to go back to your friends house and try and build a relationship with this dog and work with it, this will not only be good for the dog but also for the 2 of you to get over any fears you might have, its important you tackle this early on as the longer you leave it the more time your fear has to grow.


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    #114
    shizzel
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭shizzel


    If the dog was'nt acting aggressive and did'nt break skin maybe it was playing,, still very dangerous,, prob best to get it rehomed and retrained.
    Glad to know she is okay


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    #115
    Duckjob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    I've been in the park and seen a little *** running after my little doggie trying to hit her with a branch of a tree while his mother sat nearly watching him. (I was shouting at him to leave her alone, but it was having no effect).

    She was running away and avoiding him but finally he ended up on top of her and trod on her feet. She squealed and ran way.

    What annoys me is that a less placid dog could have justifiably taken a lump out of his leg, and if so the mother probably would have screamed for the dog to be put down / that she was going to sue etc.

    It's not fair to put all responsibility on dogs not to bite/snap and none on children not to provoke them and on parents to educate their children to treat animals properly.


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    #116
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    KwackerJack wrote: »
    If a dog attacks anyone for no sensible reason it should be put down. Simple!

    All dog 'attacks' are for a reason and are, 99 times out of 100, well signposted in advance. It's just that humans won't pay attention to the warning signs.

    My niece was bitten by one of mine in an 'unprovoked' attack while I was out of the room. When I dug deeper it turned out that the child had gone to the dog, which she didn't know, while the dog was asleep in bed and given her a cuddle. Hardly unprovoked from the dog's point of view, but it took me a while to get that through to my family after I point blank refused to have my dog put down.


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    #117
    kitnan
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭kitnan


    Seems like it comes down the rearing of the beasts - both children and dogs.


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    #118
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    DBB wrote: »
    That's not what I was implying! I just wondered where some of the things you said were filtering through from. As you have quite regularly in the past discussed stuff here that your OH has learned in college, I wondered were your posts re behavioural stuff relaying from what he was taught in college. I'm familiar with what they're being taught in UCD, and it's not always as up to date as it should be, particularly in the area of pack theory!

    Well regarding the pack theory, they are told to disregard it it completely and warn people against it (a few lecturers are convinced CM electroshocks them before filming, hence the hiss noise. They think it dangerous, but he only said that to me one day in a bigger discussion. We discuss some things, but normally if I ask "anything interesting" you know yourself :) I usually have to ask him specifically for certain information.


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    #119
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Well regarding the pack theory, they are told to disregard it it completely and warn people against it

    Great! I'm delighted to hear this. I'm guessing it's a recent enough departure because certainly up to a few short years ago, they were a bit ambivalent about it. Very encouraging to know that the new generation of vets are getting this info! Thanks!


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    #120
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    I think the bottom line here is this:
    Parents are responsible for watching their kids properly and constantly (except when the little beggars are asleep and even then sometimes :) )
    Pet owners are responsible for watching their pets properly even when they are asleep :D

    When kids & pets are together the supervision should be increased 1000 fold

    Seems like both parties dropped the ball here

    Live & learn OP (and OP's friend)

    Case closed ;)


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    #121
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    There s a big difference a dog giving a nip on the leg or arm and the head. The head the dog knows instinctively is very vulnerable


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