MY baby bitten on the head by friends dog.

cathy01

My little girl is two.I was visiting a friend today and my daughter was playing on the floor RIGHT beside my foot.My friends dog was there.My friends had been given it a cuddle, the dog was givent he paw and sit.My daughter gave him a rub.I looked up ,heard a noise, looked down and the dog just went for her.
She fell forward , the dog had its teeth in her heard.He was making a snarling noise.He seemed to be trying to get to her face or something.Its like he didn't want to bite her head.Does that even make sence.
My friend pushed the dog off her and I lifted her up.MY GOD, I cant even begin to tell you how scared I was.
She is ok, she has a bruise/Bite mark on her head. It didn't brake the skin.

I was crying, she was crying, my friend was crying.
My friend looked at me and said, I'm going to have to get him put down.
I don't know what to say, I think yes, the way the dog turned, and no she didn't pull him or slap him, she just sat beside me , on my foot nearly.
My heart is broke for my friend, but at the same time, my little girl was so lucky.
If I had been 2 seconds away from her God only knows.
I wont sleep tonight,I just keep seeing the image over and over.
I know the dog has never done this before.
Any thoughts. Please be nice, its not something me or my friend want.I know she feels terrible. She is as upset as I am, but I'm worried, he could turn again. She has young kids.
Thanks

am i bovvered

Tough but the dog needs to be put down, no dog can be trusted with young children.

meoklmrk91

Jesus that's really upsetting, did the dog give any warning signs at all, a growl, trying to get away from your daughter, licking his lips or showing the whites of his eyes? I'm so glad that it didn't end up worse than what it was. This is a horrible situation for all involved.

weetiepie

My god...my heart goes out to you, I have a two year old boy and the thoughts of that happening to him..it must have been so upsetting for you all. Thankfully your wee girl is ok. But it appears to me that your friend doesn't have a choice really...the dog must go.

I am a huge animal lover, and I really empathise with your friend, but if the dog turned on an innocent child once..there is no way it can remain around children. My only advice is that maybe your friend could give the dog to a rehoming centre..they may be able to rehome the dog after some behavioural training, obviously to a suitable home..ie no children/ vulnerable people etc.

I hope you can overcome this very traumatising event, and that your friendship remains good with your friend.

Bullseye1

Sorry that your child got bitten, I hope they make a full recovery and have no long lasting side effects. It's a shame that your friend did not remove the dog during your visit. I simply would not trust a dog around a child and vice versa. I think that you need to take a certain amount of responsibility for your child being in that situation. It's difficult being a parent but when the child is that young you need to give 100% attention or place them in an secure area. This also applies to the dog owner who should have removed it during your visit. Now it looks like dog will suffer the consequences of negligence.

borderlinemeath

Hope your little girl is ok, and it doesn't put her off dogs and pets long term.

What the dog did was a warning nip. He did exhibit bite inhibition, he didn't break the skin, he could have if he wanted to. Something spooked him. The size of the child, the fact that she was sitting on the floor, but something about her body language did something to set him off. Even the fact that she was there at all could have spooked him if he isn't used to children. This is why it's so, so important to get pups from reputable breeders who socialize their litters will all kinds of people, young, old, big, small, noisy kids, crying babies...everything so that when they do encounter a child such as in this situation - they don't feel frightened and warn that they feel frightened. He may well have given off some body language signals that the humans missed, subtle things like ear & tail position, lip licking etc.

I'm not going to say that the dog should be put down. I do think that your friend needs to get a behaviourist in to visit in the home and see if there is anything that can be done. Before any drastic decisions are made these are the questions that need to be asked:
Does your friend have children?
Does she intend to have children?
Does she intend to ever have children in her home on an ongoing basis?
Could she ensure that if the problem with the dog is child specific then she could ensure that there is never any contact with children? Plenty of dogs suffer from fear aggression of one kind or another and live with it, it's whether your friend is willing to work with it.

SillyMangoX

What an awfully upsetting thing to happen OP. Is there any possible history behind this dog, ie is it a rescue or come from an abusive background? Some dogs just don't take to children well, be it because of facial expressions, high pitched voices, unpredictable movements etc. So it may not have been necessarily that your daughter did anything that you may have seen as a provocation for the dog to bite, but something subtle that the dog picked up on that upset it. It's really a tough situation to be in, but I would say don't make any rash decisions, sleep on it, have a think about the options. Either you can both put it behind you and leave the dog as he is but get a behaviorist to work with him and see what set him off, offer him for rehoming to a family with no kids/older kids, or get him euthinised. Just remember the last option is permanent, you can't come back from there so think long and hard about what is best for all of you.

coffee_cake

Would you at least consider rehoming the dog to a non child family if she doesn't get a behaviourist, putting the dog down for expressing itself the only way it could is awful severe on the dog.

I'm sorry about your baby though I'm sure it's terrifying

Rick Rod

cathy01 wrote: »

My little girl is two.I was visiting a friend today and my daughter was playing on the floor RIGHT beside my foot.My friends dog was there.My friends had been given it a cuddle, the dog was givent he paw and sit.My daughter gave him a rub.I looked up ,heard a noise, looked down and the dog just went for her.
She fell forward , the dog had its teeth in her heard.He was making a snarling noise.He seemed to be trying to get to her face or something.Its like he didn't want to bite her head.Does that even make sence.
My friend pushed the dog off her and I lifted her up.MY GOD, I cant even begin to tell you how scared I was.
She is ok, she has a bruise/Bite mark on her head. It didn't brake the skin.

I was crying, she was crying, my friend was crying.
My friend looked at me and said, I'm going to have to get him put down.
I don't know what to say, I think yes, the way the dog turned, and no she didn't pull him or slap him, she just sat beside me , on my foot nearly.
My heart is broke for my friend, but at the same time, my little girl was so lucky.
If I had been 2 seconds away from her God only knows.
I wont sleep tonight,I just keep seeing the image over and over.
I know the dog has never done this before.
Any thoughts. Please be nice, its not something me or my friend want.I know she feels terrible. She is as upset as I am, but I'm worried, he could turn again. She has young kids.
Thanks

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

DBB

OP, I really hope your wee one is okay and is not frightened of dogs as a result. Try not to worry: baby is okay, that's the important thing right now. Moving forward, it is important that your friend informs herself thoroughly about the incident, and where to go from here: knowledge is power!
However, it is not, repeat not down to anyone here to tell you or your friend whether to put this dog to sleep. It is highly unethical to do so via this medium.
Nobody here saw what happened.
Nobody here knows what the dog's previous interactions with kids has been like (it doesn't have to have bitten before.. it will probably turn out that in fact, there were other signs that the dog is not entirely happy around certain kids in certain circumstances).
Nobody here can tell you whether the dog is safe to be around kids from this point on. Who knows? The owner may have older kids. The dog may not be used to toddlers, or being in such close proximity to toddlers. Or being in close proximity with toddlers it doesn't know so well.
Nobody can tell you whether this dog may have an undiagnosed medical problem that today, just today, made him feel like crap, and less tolerant as a result.
You, no more than anyone here can say that the dog actually intended to go for your child's face, not head. If a dog wants to bite a nearby child in the face, and wants to do untold damage, it will. It will do it in a split second. No human reaction is quick enough to stop it. The dog bit the child's head, and DID NOT BREAK SKIN. I cannot begin to tell you how significant this is. It is the difference between a dog being spared, and a dog dying.

The fact is, it happened. The fact is, the dog limited the damage he did. This is almost certainly very much on purpose. He purposely limited the damage he did. He purposely did not put your child in hospital. The prognosis for dogs like this is pretty good.

Don't get me wrong, I am not excusing what the dog did, but I am trying to give it some context, some scale.
I am also trying to encourage you to be very, very careful what anyone on a discussion forum tells you (and I do appreciate the irony that I'm telling you this on a discussion forum!), what any self-titled experts tell you, what any dog owner tells you. Cases like this should not be dealt with by anyone other than a qualified, certified dog behaviourist.
Dogs who bite, but limit the severity of the bite, are usually salvageable. That does not necessarily mean that this dog should be salvaged in his current home. It may be more appropriate to rehome him in a toddler-free home. But at this remove, and going only on the info given, I would not be racing to put this dog to sleep. I'd be getting a qualified, certified behaviourist (not a trainer... Must be a behaviourist) to assess the dog, assess the incident, and give a proper prognosis for this dog, in this home. As I say, it is entirely possible that the dog's life can be spared, possibly in a different home.

TheBoffin

I hope your daughter is ok.

This is an owner problem and not a dog problem.

Dogs are wonderful pets but are also animals and have instincts. I dont believe that getting the dog put down fixes the problem. Your friend needs to work with her pet and train it.

A good start would be to put the dog outside or in another room while visitors are at the house. Then over time socialize the dog on a lead in a safe environment.

mathepac

I'm glad the terrible incident wasn't worse for your little child.

Unfortunately the poor dog must now pay the penalty for the lack of awareness of the adults.

Dogs are pack animals and understand the hierarchy and their place in the pack in relation to adults. When a stranger (your little girl) joins the pack, the dog, unless trained or educated otherwise by the adults or pack-leaders, may feel displaced by the attention the new-comer gets. In order to re-establish the old hierarchy the dog may try to physically impose his superiority over the child in the only way he knows.

Introducing dogs to new children and vice versa needs careful, cautious work. Some people with pets may be lucky and it works out OK. Personally I would never take the risk.

This unfortunate and very scary incident reinforces for me the need to licence and train pet-owners and not their dogs.

borderlinemeath

mathepac wrote: »

I'm glad the terrible incident wasn't worse for your little child.

Unfortunately the poor dog must now pay the penalty for the lack of awareness of the adults.

Dogs are pack animals and understand the hierarchy and their place in the pack in relation to adults. When a stranger (your little girl) joins the pack, the dog, unless trained or educated otherwise by the adults or pack-leaders, may feel displaced by the attention the new-comer gets. In order to re-establish the old hierarchy the dog may try to physically impose his superiority over the child in the only way he knows.

This is absolute rubbish, and is subscribing to pack theories that have been disproven time and time again. Dogs DON'T think like this. They don't have any idea about superiority within the family. The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

[/QUOTE]

sambuka41

I would agree with the others who have said that this isn't a decision to be made over the internet. Your friend needs to really think about the situation and be honest about whether she can put the work in to get her dog ok with kids.

My dog is freaked out by children, it used to upset me because the last thing you need as a dog owner is a dog that barks/freaked out by kids, makes going to the park difficult. But when I looked at it without emotion I can see why, young kids don't have full control over their body- they wobble all over the place, crashing into things, squealing with excitement or just at random times!! All of that would be frightening for a dog, the unpredictability of kids is a real problem.
Ruby is just about able to tolerate being in the same room as a young child, and that took months!!!!!

It's hard work but it is worth putting the work in; I don't have kids and so Ruby is a grand dog for me. Would your friend look to rehome the dog to someone without children?

DBB

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

Why would you involve the Gardai? No law was broken. This is a civil issue.
If the op were to sue, they would need to demonstrate loss, injury or damage caused by negligence. Whilst this incident was very unpleasant, I think the op would have quite the job to demonstrate any of this.
The hysteria here is... Jaw dropping. Kids have accidents, they crash into walls on their bikes, they push each other over, they fall over footpaths, so do you advocate the parents sue the owner of the wall? The kid who pushed? The council? Of course not.
This was an accident. The damage done was, thankfully, small. If the dog had previous form, then the owner would be negligent. But a first-off incident which resulted in a bruise? I don't fancy their chances.

Rayne Wooney

If the dog just locked on to your child's head for no reason it obviously needs to be either put down or sent for behavioural training and rehoming.

But you say you looked away and weren't looking at that time, and it seems strange that a dog who was fine would just do this out of nowhere.

Is if common for dogs to be put down for possibly defending themselves? I think that's a bit drastic if so

Rick Rod

DBB wrote: »

Why would you involve the Gardai? No law was broken. This is a civil issue.
If the op were to sue, they would need to demonstrate loss, injury or damage caused by negligence. Whilst this incident was very unpleasant, I think the op would have quite the job to demonstrate any of this.
The hysteria here is... Jaw dropping. Kids have accidents, they crash into walls on their bikes, they push each other over, they fall over footpaths, so do you advocate the parents sue the owner of the wall? The kid who pushed? The council? Of course not.
This was an accident. The damage done was, thankfully, small. If the dog had previous form, then the owner would be negligent. But a first-off incident which resulted in a bruise? I don't fancy their chances.

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

Bullseye1

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

What about the parents responsibility and the dog owners responsibilty?

avfc1874

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

good man,you should never be too upset to forget about sueing someone:rolleyes:

TheBoffin

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

Yea and if your granny had b*lls she would be your grandad. The fact is the dog didn't kill the baby. Lots of things COULD happen.

The dog warned the child, it didn't savage the child. This is an dog owner problem. The dog owner clearly did not have any control of the animal at the time.

And as for the compensation comment, what f*kn bar stool did you hear that one on? Comments like that are exactly what is wrong with society, quick lads lets get some compo.... Sickening.

End of rant!

borderlinemeath

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

Because the dog warned the child off in the only way it knows how? The dog didn't attack, it gave a warning nip. It didn't break the skin. It tried to warn the child to stay away because something about it frightened him. A bit like a human shoving a person away rather than punching them in the face/breaking their nose. The dog was basically saying "leave me alone" rather than "I'm going to kill you" and it's actions proved it.

DBB

mathepac wrote: »

Dogs are pack animals and understand the hierarchy and their place in the pack in relation to adults. When a stranger (your little girl) joins the pack, the dog, unless trained or educated otherwise by the adults or pack-leaders, may feel displaced by the attention the new-comer gets. In order to re-establish the old hierarchy the dog may try to physically impose his superiority over the child in the only way he knows.

Whilst the rest of your post is okay, this paragraph demonstrates precisely why the owner needs to get advised by a qualified, certified behaviourist, who will tell them that the above is disproven, utter hocus-pocus, and very damaging.
If dogs really felt as you describe, we could not keep them as pets. It's just that simple.
Perhaps a read of the following site is in order:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

AlanS181824

Please don't get the dog put down, please don't. If your friend doesn't want to keep him then at least have him put into a rehoming facility. Putting the dog down won't help, your baby is okay and that's the main thing, if the poor dog is put down then this will devastate your friend and more than likely put a rift between you two. So again, it is up to you and your friend but please, coming from an animal lover do NOT have the dog put down!

DBB

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

No, no they won't. They have no powers to do so without first going through due process.
Due process involves proper, measured, professional assessment by people who know what they're at. Many dogs have lived to tell the tale as a result, and never offended again. That's the good thing about due process, as opposed to flying off the handle and jumping to silly conclusions.

mathepac

borderlinemeath wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish, and is subscribing to pack theories that have been disproven time and time again. Dogs DON'T think like this. They don't have any idea about superiority within the family. The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

Dominance and pack theory are being questioned by experts and examined in the light of new findings and observations - they have never ever been disproven in relation to wolf/dog/pack behaviour towards an inter-loper / stranger / new-comer.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

... The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

This is total and utter rubbish. Did you use canine telepathy or another super-power to establish after-the-fact feelings the dog had?

whupdedo

So let me get this straight, you went into another house with a toddler and left the kid down on the ground where their was a dog you knew nothing about, it maddens me every time I hear story's like this.thankfully nothing serious happened your kid but a bit more awareness around dogs with young children would not go amiss. Is their really anything to gain by putting down a dog that reacts to a situation it hasn't had a choice of being involved in. Awareness around animals however safe you think they are is a human responsibility,after all,we humans do class then as dumb animals, and are then surprised when they actually act dumb. My advice is count your blessings and learn a valuable lesson

Rick Rod

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Because the dog warned the child off in the only way it knows how? The dog didn't attack, it gave a warning nip. It didn't break the skin. It tried to warn the child to stay away because something about it frightened him. A bit like a human shoving a person away rather than punching them in the face/breaking their nose. The dog was basically saying "leave me alone" rather than "I'm going to kill you" and it's actions proved it.

If this is how that dog "defends" itself against a 2 year old then it's dangerous. A danger to babies. I put babies ahead of animals. So does the law. Maybe you don't. That baby-attacking dog needs to be put down before it attacks again.

borderlinemeath

mathepac wrote: »

Dominance and pack theory are being questioned by experts and examined in the light of new findings and observations - they have never ever been disproven in relation to wolf/dog/pack behaviour towards an inter-loper / stranger / new-comer.
This is total and utter rubbish. Did you use canine telepathy or another super-power to establish after-the-fact feelings the dog had?

Newsflash for you.

Domestic dogs aren't wolves. Closely related but certainly not the same thing. And the pack theory that you speak of was studied on captive wolves that did not exhibit the behaviours of wild wolves. But why let facts get in the way of rubbish theories spouted by the likes of Cesar Milan, who is covered in scars to prove how useless he is at 'dog whispering' or whetever rubbish he likes to call it.

The dog exhibited bite inhibition. It is what dogs do to warn people or other animals away when they're frightened of something. Not canine telepathy but facts on why dogs behave as they do.

wexie

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

Are you sure you don't want to create some more hysteria? Cause that's just what a thread like this needs.

Maybe we should discuss having the owner put down and sueing the parents for raising a bad dog owner?

DBB

mathepac wrote: »

Dominance and pack theory are being questioned by experts and examined in the light of new findings and observations - they have never ever been disproven in relation to wolf/dog/pack behaviour towards an inter-loper / stranger / new-comer.

They are not new findings... The research has been going on for almost 20 years. The issue is pretty much being left behind by researchers at this stage as a no-brainer.
Wolves don't dominate strangers or interlopers. Neither do dogs. Sure, they may be wary of them, wolves may even kill an interloper. But that ain't the same thing as dominance.
Dogs don't do packs either.
You're on seriously tenuous ground in trying to defend your comments about pack theory. I'm not sure if you're qualified in the field of animal behaviour science, but I don't know one single person who is, in the whole world, who'd agree with your take on dog pack theory, or how dogs view children, or "interlopers".

TheBoffin

wexie wrote: »

Are you sure you don't want to create some more hysteria? Cause that's just what a thread like this needs.

Maybe we should discuss having the owner put down and sueing the parents for raising a bad dog owner?

Ah no... jaysis girl.... bit of compo yea!!! Few nights out on the lash!!! deadly!

* In the voice of Nidge from Love Hate!