MY baby bitten on the head by friends dog.

anniehoo

I made a dog "dance" i.e. held it's front paws and balance on his hindlegs in the schoolyard when I was 9 years old.I was showing off. Big mistake on my behalf.

It didn't end well, for me.I STILL have the scar...25 years later on my left wrist that took an entire month to heal!!!

It was 100% my fault.

My parents never knew about it and still don't know about it.I knew the dog would get blamed when it was my fault at the time (the whole infection issue I now only baffle myself about because I hid an open wound for weeks).You gotta laugh at the 80s. :eek:

Dog respect 1, My Fail 0

ferretone

ETA:

anniehoo wrote: »

My parents never knew about it and still don't know about it.I knew the dog would get blamed when it was my fault at the time (the whole infection issue I now only baffle myself about because I hid an open wound for weeks).You gotta laugh at the 80s. :eek:

Dog respect 1, My Fail 0

Lol, are you afraid if you told them now they'd go after gettin' the dog pts?

ETA: Have to say, though, I admire 9-year-old you's wisdom and determination, in recognising who was to blame, and in keeping it under wraps, top protect the dog

420

Sorry to hear OP scary for you and your child.

Why not disclose what type of breed it is?

ferretone

Oops didn't mean to post again, sorry.

ferretone

420 wrote: »

Sorry to hear OP scary for you and your child.

Why not disclose what type of breed it is?

How would that help?

wexie

ferretone wrote: »

How would that help?

It won't in this context.

It probably would help a behavourist but I'd like to think they might be able to tell once they see the dog

ferretone

wexie wrote: »

It won't in this context.

It probably would help a behavourist but I'd like to think they might be able to tell once they see the dog

I'd doubt they'd arrange a consult right here on the open forum, so perhaps the owner might disclose a little more info when talking to the behaviourist anyway

ETA: It might also help a troll who wanted to derail the thread with a rant about X breed of dog and the ne'er-do-wells that own them, now I come to think of it! :rolleyes:

wolfpawnat

borderlinemeath wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish, and is subscribing to pack theories that have been disproven time and time again. Dogs DON'T think like this. They don't have any idea about superiority within the family. The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

With all due respect, social theories for dogs are like those for humans, just theories. All theories are subject to investigation and in many cases two conflicting theories can be seen as factual by different, equally reputable sources. There are links with dogs who are allowed too much free reign and being what can be construed as dismissive of it's owners commands. But that isn't actually the topic on discussion here.

OP I am so glad your child is okay, there is nothing more terrifying for a mother. Here it is a case of child being left on a floor in a house where a dog is in its own territory and in some cases, so dogs can become agitated. As another poster said, sudden movements, severe lack of comprehension of warning signs and high pitched voices are not something many dogs enjoy.

That said, when children are invited into a house, the owner must think of the childs and dogs well being. Putting the dog in another room or in a crate, though annoying for the dog, is the most recommended action. Kids will be kids, and dogs will be dogs, neither one is truly to blame.

But pointing the finger will get no one anywhere. There are a few things that I see as possible outcomes your friend can consider, not all I agree with;

1 - putting the dog down. Speaks for itself really.

2 - Assessing the dog for physical issues. Perhaps bringing it to a vet to see if there is a physical issue for the dog reacting. My old dog savaged my hand as a child when it rubbed accidentally against his stomach one day (we found out later he had cancer so it must have hurt something terrible when I rubbed it)

3 - Bringing the animal to a properly qualified animal behaviourist. There are a few people posing as behaviourists that really are just reading some books and charging people for consults using methods not really recommended. Perhaps suggest to your friend if they are in the Dublin area of the behaviourist hired by UCD as a lecturer, she comes highly recommended (though I'd say she is not cheap, which may be an issue)

4 - Treat it as a learning curve - It is now clear this dog, for some reason, is not really good with young children, the owner can choose to accept this and work around it. Either by not inviting children into the home, or removing the dog as a threat when there is a child in the room.

I hope you, your child and your friend are able to get over the shock of this, it was a terrible thing to happen.

ferretone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

With all due respect, social theories for dogs are like those for humans, just theories. All theories are subject to investigation and in many cases two conflicting theories can be seen as factual by different, equally reputable sources. There are links with dogs who are allowed too much free reign and being what can be construed as dismissive of it's owners commands.

Dogs get dismissive of their owners commands because they don't make it worth their while to pay attention to them. From the dog's pov, if the behaviour required is not enjoyable or rewarding in itself, then the reward used to condition it must be sufficiently highly valued to offset the unpleasantness or boringness of said behaviour.

If the consequences of disobeying the command are desirable enough, eg. continuing to run around loose annoying passers-by, and the reward for obeying is a bit, well meh, and with the huge disadvantage of the great playtime they are missing, well then owner gets disregarded as a boring spoilsport, who often shouts at them for some bizarre reason once their fun is finished.

No need for any convoluted pack theories to explain that one

wolfpawnat

ferretone wrote: »

Dogs get dismissive of their owners commands because they don't make it worth their while to pay attention to them. From the dog's pov, if the behaviour required is not enjoyable or rewarding in itself, then the reward used to condition it must be sufficiently highly valued to offset the unpleasantness or boringness of said behaviour.

If the consequences of disobeying the command are desirable enough, eg. continuing to run around loose annoying passers-by, and the reward for obeying is a bit, well meh, and with the huge disadvantage of the great playtime they are missing, well then owner gets disregarded as a boring spoilsport, who often shouts at them for some bizarre reason once their fun is finished.

No need for any convoluted pack theories to explain that one

Indeed, I myself do not believe in a pack theory, but like with kids, there is need for a different sort of a hierarchy, if that makes sense. Not this "Alpha" BS, but another sort of "you won't always get a treat, but you will still have to sit when told to" way. Like with kids though, they will test the waters, and will have to be corrected, hence why I said that there are links with the dog being left do its own thing and ignored commands, but lets face it, that is hardly rocket science.

ferretone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Indeed, I myself do not believe in a pack theory, but like with kids, there is need for a different sort of a hierarchy, if that makes sense. Not this "Alpha" BS, but another sort of "you won't always get a treat, but you will still have to sit when told to" way. Like with kids though, they will test the waters, and will have to be corrected, hence why I said that there are links with the dog being left do its own thing and ignored commands, but lets face it, that is hardly rocket science.

Not sure of source and stuff, but I believe dogs actually respond better to reinforcement when it's staged back gradually, so they don't get a treat every time they respond in the desired way, but just now and again. It makes them try harder to earn the reward or something

wolfpawnat

ferretone wrote: »

Not sure of source and stuff, but I believe dogs actually respond better to reinforcement when it's staged back gradually, so they don't get a treat every time they respond in the desired way, but just now and again. It makes them try harder to earn the reward or something

All they want to do is please their owner.If they know there is a chance of a treat, they will try and try until they get one.

mandylevo

I have dogs, and they spend most of their time indoors, I also have a 18 month old grand daughter and I would never have the dogs in the house when she is here, you never know how a dog will react to having a young child in their pressence especially if they are not used to them. This responsibility for this lies fully on your friends shoulders she was negligent to leave the dog in the house with your child and in doing so has caused both you and your daughter huge emotional trauma as well as putting her dog in a position where lets face it she may have to put it down or at least rehome through a responsible animal shelter because she herself won't be able to get over what's happened. The only thing you can do now is try to make sure your daughter doesnt end up with a fear of dogs because of whats happened. I hope this has made your friend realise that part of being a responsible pet owner means not putting her dogs in a position where they could hurt someone and no matter how well she thinks she knows her pet you can never predict how they will react to people outside of their home.

ferretone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

All they want to do is please their owner.If they know there is a chance of a treat, they will try and try until they get one.

Of course, then there are people like my aunt. She trains her dogs to compete in agility and tracking, and all through their lives there are generally new things they are learning, and get treated each time they make the latest step on the path to that, new-ish things, which still get treated a lot. And also older "tricks" and set pieces, such that if she says, "whatcha gonna do?", they basically have to guess which one she's looking for to get the reward.

Boy do those dogs fall over themselves trying to please her!

aN.Droid

mandylevo wrote: »

I have dogs, and they spend most of their time indoors, I also have a 18 month old grand daughter and I would never have the dogs in the house when she is here, you never know how a dog will react to having a young child in their pressence especially if they are not used to them. This responsibility for this lies fully on your friends shoulders she was negligent to leave the dog in the house with your child and in doing so has caused both you and your daughter huge emotional trauma as well as putting her dog in a position where lets face it she may have to put it down or at least rehome through a responsible animal shelter because she herself won't be able to get over what's happened. The only thing you can do now is try to make sure your daughter doesnt end up with a fear of dogs because of whats happened. I hope this has made your friend realise that part of being a responsible pet owner means not putting her dogs in a position where they could hurt someone and no matter how well she thinks she knows her pet you can never predict how they will react to people outside of their home.

Mostly nonsense. The blame is not 100% on the friend. You say that part of being a pet owner is not putting the pets in a situation like this? What about the parents responsibility to not put a child at risk? Having a young child in the same room as a dog is not a good idea nor is it responsible and fair play to the op she has owned up to this fact.

Responsibility and blame are to be shared in this scenario. And neither will hopefully make the same mistake twice.

ferretone

mandylevo wrote: »

I hope this has made your friend realise that part of being a responsible pet owner means not putting her dogs in a position where they could hurt someone and no matter how well she thinks she knows her pet you can never predict how they will react to people outside of their home.

I think from what the op has said that it very much has. As others have said already, we all make mistakes. The smartest of us don't repeat them. These 2 parents had a sharp wake-up call, and nobody was seriously harmed. You may be very sure neither will be repeating their mistake.

ETA: Cross-posted, sorry you said the same, but yours was better :P

wolfpawnat

ferretone wrote: »

Of course, then there are people like my aunt. She trains her dogs to compete in agility and tracking, and all through their lives there are generally new things they are learning, and get treated each time they make the latest step on the path to that, new-ish things, which still get treated a lot. And also older "tricks" and set pieces, such that if she says, "whatcha gonna do?", they basically have to guess which one she's looking for to get the reward.

Boy do those dogs fall over themselves trying to please her!

Better trained than any man!!!

It is actually one of the leading causes of dog aggression to not have your dog occupied with training. If the mind is not stimulated they go a bit mad.

ferretone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Better trained than any man!!!

It is actually one of the leading causes of dog aggression to not have your dog occupied with training. If the mind is not stimulated they go a bit mad.

Just like the rest of us! :P

wolfpawnat

ferretone wrote: »

Just like the rest of us! :P

But that is the thing, dogs are a lot like humans, they need mental and physical stimulation.

ferretone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Better trained than any man!!!

Also for some reason they all seem to live very long and happy lives

ferretone

Limericks wrote: »

Mostly nonsense. The blame is not 100% on the friend. You say that part of being a pet owner is not putting the pets in a situation like this? What about the parents responsibility to not put a child at risk? Having a young child in the same room as a dog is not a good idea nor is it responsible and fair play to the op she has owned up to this fact.

Responsibility and blame are to be shared in this scenario. And neither will hopefully make the same mistake twice.

Hmm, that being said, now that I think about it, I would say there is, in everyday terms, a little bit more onus on the dog owner than the visiting parent in these sorts of circumstances.

Not that every parent shouldn't be versed on safe behaviour and observation regarding dogs and small children; they absolutely should.

But given that many more households have children than dogs, and that the latter recommendation is not widely observed, it really is incumbent on dog owners to be ultra-careful, and somewhat informed when allowing their dog to interact with the little ones.

Doesn't have any impact on the current thread however, as both parents are dog-owners, so they both relaxed a guard they need to be always aware of in the given ways.

Should equally serve as a reminder to any of us other readers, to keep brushed up on body language, protocol etc, when allowing our dogs to interact with kids, especially other people's kids.

J.P.M

Common sense all was all that was needed.

borderlinemeath

wolfpawnat wrote: »

With all due respect, social theories for dogs are like those for humans, just theories. All theories are subject to investigation and in many cases two conflicting theories can be seen as factual by different, equally reputable sources. There are links with dogs who are allowed too much free reign and being what can be construed as dismissive of it's owners commands. But that isn't actually the topic on discussion here.

But when a poster pops up and starts talking dominance/hierarchy/interloper 'wolf speak', I would bet the winter heating budget that they were watching a bit too much Cesar Milan than reading up on the actual studies of captive wolf packs that Zimen carried out that were then applied to domestic dogs. And CM is NOT a reputable source of information. There's far too many trainers and behaviourists that still subscribe to some of the outdated theories that dogs need a 'firm hand' and use punishment techniques over positive reinforcement. Dogs that don't do what they're owner wants them to, usually do so because they either won't get rewarded or they know they will get punished. I don't think I've met a dog that won't do what you want it to for SOMETHING, be it food, toys, show of the lead for walks etc. I think that people who find their dogs dismissive of their commands just don't understand what motivates their dog.

ZiabR

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

Sorry, what? This is a friend, i doubt the OP is going to sue her or call the gardai. The dog needs to be put down alright, sadly.

If my dog did it, it would break my heart but it would be put down.

Optimalprimerib

It really angers me that the concensus is to put the animal down. It got scared and made mistake. With the right behavioural training it should be ok.

I did notice however with our old dog, who was as placid and friendly as could be, really fid not like children and therefore was terrified of them.
I did not trust her one bit even though she never bit anyone.

I hope ye make the right decision on this and am really sorry for the heartache that this incident brings.

Duckjob

If you weren't looking at the moment it happened, is it possible your daughter scratched/pinched/tugged on his hair or otherwise hurt him ?

We have a daughter under 2, and although our doggie is great with her we supervise any interaction between them ultra-closely, because at that age, kids simply don't have to necessary sense or the co-ordination to interact with an animal the same way they should. A lot of parents are shockingly lax at impressing on their children the importance of treating a dog (or any animal) properly.

I can well imagine how upsetting it was to witness, and I hope you and your daughter can put it behind you.

wolfpawnat

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But when a poster pops up and starts talking dominance/hierarchy/interloper 'wolf speak', I would bet the winter heating budget that they were watching a bit too much Cesar Milan than reading up on the actual studies of captive wolf packs that Zimen carried out that were then applied to domestic dogs. And CM is NOT a reputable source of information. There's far too many trainers and behaviourists that still subscribe to some of the outdated theories that dogs need a 'firm hand' and use punishment techniques over positive reinforcement. Dogs that don't do what they're owner wants them to, usually do so because they either won't get rewarded or they know they will get punished. I don't think I've met a dog that won't do what you want it to for SOMETHING, be it food, toys, show of the lead for walks etc. I think that people who find their dogs dismissive of their commands just don't understand what motivates their dog.

Oh of course. I watch Cesar Milan from time to time myself, but as I said in another post, hierarchy is part of a dogs pack (family) life, but not as he puts it. Dogs like knowing there is structure in a home (like children) and need to know their place in it (like children) and just like children, they will challenge it from time to time. I suppose that is why we see them as integral family members, they are very much like children in some respects. Tidier and easier to train though IMO

There is actually theories being studied at the moment that the "Wolfpack" system is wrong, they are more complicated than people assumed. It isn't just alpha, beta, omega and several other Greek letters apparently, it is a finely woven system.

DBB

wolfpawnat wrote: »

There is actually theories being studied at the moment that the "Wolfpack" system is wrong, they are more complicated than people assumed. It isn't just alpha, beta, omega and several other Greek letters apparently, it is a finely woven system.

At the moment?
I think the research you're referring to is very well established.
I'd also dispute your contention that bold dogs are motivated to be bold because of some sort of perceived hierarchy. It suggests that they're motivated by rebellion against a greater power. I'm afraid there's no evidence to suggest that's true. Dogs are bold because being bold works for them. Good dogs are good because being good works for them. No need to complicate it with stuff for which not a shred of evidence has been found, indeed for which all the evidence points against.
As a matter of interest, is this stuff you're saying linked to what your OH is being told in vet college by the lady you referred to in an earlier post?

wolfpawnat

DBB wrote: »

At the moment?
I think the research you're referring to is very well established.
I'd also dispute your contention that bold dogs are motivated to be bold because of some sort of perceived hierarchy. It suggests that they're motivated by rebellion against a greater power. I'm afraid there's no evidence to suggest that's true. Dogs are bold because being bold works for them. Good dogs are good because being good works for them. No need to complicate it with stuff for which not a shred of evidence has been found, indeed for which all the evidence points against.
As a matter of interest, is this stuff you're saying linked to what your OH is being told in vet college by the lady you referred to in an earlier post?

The research I was referring to was regarding the mentality not in the wolfpack theory in domestic dogs, but in actual wolves. They are studying wild wolf packs in Yellowstone in a more complex way these days.

I say dogs test the boundaries, that is obvious, even the best behaved dog will do that from time to time. And in my previous posts I said bold dogs are bold because there is no structure, by which I mean bad behaviours are not corrected, again nothing about that is rocket science.

The behaviourist hired by UCD lectures the vet students to advise pet owners on the positive reinforcement technique to train their dogs. And I have to say, I think it is a great method.

Vinz Mesrine

Just out of interest, what kind of dog was it?