MY baby bitten on the head by friends dog.

cathy01 · 06-11-2013 7:44pm #1

My little girl is two.I was visiting a friend today and my daughter was playing on the floor RIGHT beside my foot.My friends dog was there.My friends had been given it a cuddle, the dog was givent he paw and sit.My daughter gave him a rub.I looked up ,heard a noise, looked down and the dog just went for her.
She fell forward , the dog had its teeth in her heard.He was making a snarling noise.He seemed to be trying to get to her face or something.Its like he didn't want to bite her head.Does that even make sence.
My friend pushed the dog off her and I lifted her up.MY GOD, I cant even begin to tell you how scared I was.
She is ok, she has a bruise/Bite mark on her head. It didn't brake the skin.

I was crying, she was crying, my friend was crying.
My friend looked at me and said, I'm going to have to get him put down.
I don't know what to say, I think yes, the way the dog turned, and no she didn't pull him or slap him, she just sat beside me , on my foot nearly.
My heart is broke for my friend, but at the same time, my little girl was so lucky.
If I had been 2 seconds away from her God only knows.
I wont sleep tonight,I just keep seeing the image over and over.
I know the dog has never done this before.
Any thoughts. Please be nice, its not something me or my friend want.I know she feels terrible. She is as upset as I am, but I'm worried, he could turn again. She has young kids.
Thanks

am i bovvered · 06-11-2013 7:47pm

Tough but the dog needs to be put down, no dog can be trusted with young children.

meoklmrk91 · 06-11-2013 7:50pm

Jesus that's really upsetting, did the dog give any warning signs at all, a growl, trying to get away from your daughter, licking his lips or showing the whites of his eyes? I'm so glad that it didn't end up worse than what it was. This is a horrible situation for all involved.

weetiepie · 06-11-2013 8:00pm

My god...my heart goes out to you, I have a two year old boy and the thoughts of that happening to him..it must have been so upsetting for you all. Thankfully your wee girl is ok. But it appears to me that your friend doesn't have a choice really...the dog must go.

I am a huge animal lover, and I really empathise with your friend, but if the dog turned on an innocent child once..there is no way it can remain around children. My only advice is that maybe your friend could give the dog to a rehoming centre..they may be able to rehome the dog after some behavioural training, obviously to a suitable home..ie no children/ vulnerable people etc.

I hope you can overcome this very traumatising event, and that your friendship remains good with your friend.

Bullseye1 · 06-11-2013 8:11pm

Sorry that your child got bitten, I hope they make a full recovery and have no long lasting side effects. It's a shame that your friend did not remove the dog during your visit. I simply would not trust a dog around a child and vice versa. I think that you need to take a certain amount of responsibility for your child being in that situation. It's difficult being a parent but when the child is that young you need to give 100% attention or place them in an secure area. This also applies to the dog owner who should have removed it during your visit. Now it looks like dog will suffer the consequences of negligence.

borderlinemeath · 06-11-2013 8:16pm

Hope your little girl is ok, and it doesn't put her off dogs and pets long term.

What the dog did was a warning nip. He did exhibit bite inhibition, he didn't break the skin, he could have if he wanted to. Something spooked him. The size of the child, the fact that she was sitting on the floor, but something about her body language did something to set him off. Even the fact that she was there at all could have spooked him if he isn't used to children. This is why it's so, so important to get pups from reputable breeders who socialize their litters will all kinds of people, young, old, big, small, noisy kids, crying babies...everything so that when they do encounter a child such as in this situation - they don't feel frightened and warn that they feel frightened. He may well have given off some body language signals that the humans missed, subtle things like ear & tail position, lip licking etc.

I'm not going to say that the dog should be put down. I do think that your friend needs to get a behaviourist in to visit in the home and see if there is anything that can be done. Before any drastic decisions are made these are the questions that need to be asked:
Does your friend have children?
Does she intend to have children?
Does she intend to ever have children in her home on an ongoing basis?
Could she ensure that if the problem with the dog is child specific then she could ensure that there is never any contact with children? Plenty of dogs suffer from fear aggression of one kind or another and live with it, it's whether your friend is willing to work with it.

SillyMangoX · 06-11-2013 8:18pm

What an awfully upsetting thing to happen OP. Is there any possible history behind this dog, ie is it a rescue or come from an abusive background? Some dogs just don't take to children well, be it because of facial expressions, high pitched voices, unpredictable movements etc. So it may not have been necessarily that your daughter did anything that you may have seen as a provocation for the dog to bite, but something subtle that the dog picked up on that upset it. It's really a tough situation to be in, but I would say don't make any rash decisions, sleep on it, have a think about the options. Either you can both put it behind you and leave the dog as he is but get a behaviorist to work with him and see what set him off, offer him for rehoming to a family with no kids/older kids, or get him euthinised. Just remember the last option is permanent, you can't come back from there so think long and hard about what is best for all of you.

06-11-2013 8:20pm

Would you at least consider rehoming the dog to a non child family if she doesn't get a behaviourist, putting the dog down for expressing itself the only way it could is awful severe on the dog.

I'm sorry about your baby though I'm sure it's terrifying

Rick Rod · 06-11-2013 8:22pm

cathy01 wrote: »

My little girl is two.I was visiting a friend today and my daughter was playing on the floor RIGHT beside my foot.My friends dog was there.My friends had been given it a cuddle, the dog was givent he paw and sit.My daughter gave him a rub.I looked up ,heard a noise, looked down and the dog just went for her.
She fell forward , the dog had its teeth in her heard.He was making a snarling noise.He seemed to be trying to get to her face or something.Its like he didn't want to bite her head.Does that even make sence.
My friend pushed the dog off her and I lifted her up.MY GOD, I cant even begin to tell you how scared I was.
She is ok, she has a bruise/Bite mark on her head. It didn't brake the skin.

I was crying, she was crying, my friend was crying.
My friend looked at me and said, I'm going to have to get him put down.
I don't know what to say, I think yes, the way the dog turned, and no she didn't pull him or slap him, she just sat beside me , on my foot nearly.
My heart is broke for my friend, but at the same time, my little girl was so lucky.
If I had been 2 seconds away from her God only knows.
I wont sleep tonight,I just keep seeing the image over and over.
I know the dog has never done this before.
Any thoughts. Please be nice, its not something me or my friend want.I know she feels terrible. She is as upset as I am, but I'm worried, he could turn again. She has young kids.
Thanks

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

DBB · 06-11-2013 8:23pm

OP, I really hope your wee one is okay and is not frightened of dogs as a result. Try not to worry: baby is okay, that's the important thing right now. Moving forward, it is important that your friend informs herself thoroughly about the incident, and where to go from here: knowledge is power!
However, it is not, repeat not down to anyone here to tell you or your friend whether to put this dog to sleep. It is highly unethical to do so via this medium.
Nobody here saw what happened.
Nobody here knows what the dog's previous interactions with kids has been like (it doesn't have to have bitten before.. it will probably turn out that in fact, there were other signs that the dog is not entirely happy around certain kids in certain circumstances).
Nobody here can tell you whether the dog is safe to be around kids from this point on. Who knows? The owner may have older kids. The dog may not be used to toddlers, or being in such close proximity to toddlers. Or being in close proximity with toddlers it doesn't know so well.
Nobody can tell you whether this dog may have an undiagnosed medical problem that today, just today, made him feel like crap, and less tolerant as a result.
You, no more than anyone here can say that the dog actually intended to go for your child's face, not head. If a dog wants to bite a nearby child in the face, and wants to do untold damage, it will. It will do it in a split second. No human reaction is quick enough to stop it. The dog bit the child's head, and DID NOT BREAK SKIN. I cannot begin to tell you how significant this is. It is the difference between a dog being spared, and a dog dying.

The fact is, it happened. The fact is, the dog limited the damage he did. This is almost certainly very much on purpose. He purposely limited the damage he did. He purposely did not put your child in hospital. The prognosis for dogs like this is pretty good.

Don't get me wrong, I am not excusing what the dog did, but I am trying to give it some context, some scale.
I am also trying to encourage you to be very, very careful what anyone on a discussion forum tells you (and I do appreciate the irony that I'm telling you this on a discussion forum!), what any self-titled experts tell you, what any dog owner tells you. Cases like this should not be dealt with by anyone other than a qualified, certified dog behaviourist.
Dogs who bite, but limit the severity of the bite, are usually salvageable. That does not necessarily mean that this dog should be salvaged in his current home. It may be more appropriate to rehome him in a toddler-free home. But at this remove, and going only on the info given, I would not be racing to put this dog to sleep. I'd be getting a qualified, certified behaviourist (not a trainer... Must be a behaviourist) to assess the dog, assess the incident, and give a proper prognosis for this dog, in this home. As I say, it is entirely possible that the dog's life can be spared, possibly in a different home.

TheBoffin · 06-11-2013 8:24pm

I hope your daughter is ok.

This is an owner problem and not a dog problem.

Dogs are wonderful pets but are also animals and have instincts. I dont believe that getting the dog put down fixes the problem. Your friend needs to work with her pet and train it.

A good start would be to put the dog outside or in another room while visitors are at the house. Then over time socialize the dog on a lead in a safe environment.

mathepac · 06-11-2013 8:24pm

I'm glad the terrible incident wasn't worse for your little child.

Unfortunately the poor dog must now pay the penalty for the lack of awareness of the adults.

Dogs are pack animals and understand the hierarchy and their place in the pack in relation to adults. When a stranger (your little girl) joins the pack, the dog, unless trained or educated otherwise by the adults or pack-leaders, may feel displaced by the attention the new-comer gets. In order to re-establish the old hierarchy the dog may try to physically impose his superiority over the child in the only way he knows.

Introducing dogs to new children and vice versa needs careful, cautious work. Some people with pets may be lucky and it works out OK. Personally I would never take the risk.

This unfortunate and very scary incident reinforces for me the need to licence and train pet-owners and not their dogs.

borderlinemeath · 06-11-2013 8:32pm

mathepac wrote: »

I'm glad the terrible incident wasn't worse for your little child.

Unfortunately the poor dog must now pay the penalty for the lack of awareness of the adults.

Dogs are pack animals and understand the hierarchy and their place in the pack in relation to adults. When a stranger (your little girl) joins the pack, the dog, unless trained or educated otherwise by the adults or pack-leaders, may feel displaced by the attention the new-comer gets. In order to re-establish the old hierarchy the dog may try to physically impose his superiority over the child in the only way he knows.

This is absolute rubbish, and is subscribing to pack theories that have been disproven time and time again. Dogs DON'T think like this. They don't have any idea about superiority within the family. The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

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sambuka41 · 06-11-2013 8:35pm

I would agree with the others who have said that this isn't a decision to be made over the internet. Your friend needs to really think about the situation and be honest about whether she can put the work in to get her dog ok with kids.

My dog is freaked out by children, it used to upset me because the last thing you need as a dog owner is a dog that barks/freaked out by kids, makes going to the park difficult. But when I looked at it without emotion I can see why, young kids don't have full control over their body- they wobble all over the place, crashing into things, squealing with excitement or just at random times!! All of that would be frightening for a dog, the unpredictability of kids is a real problem.
Ruby is just about able to tolerate being in the same room as a young child, and that took months!!!!!

It's hard work but it is worth putting the work in; I don't have kids and so Ruby is a grand dog for me. Would your friend look to rehome the dog to someone without children?

DBB · 06-11-2013 8:37pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

Why would you involve the Gardai? No law was broken. This is a civil issue.
If the op were to sue, they would need to demonstrate loss, injury or damage caused by negligence. Whilst this incident was very unpleasant, I think the op would have quite the job to demonstrate any of this.
The hysteria here is... Jaw dropping. Kids have accidents, they crash into walls on their bikes, they push each other over, they fall over footpaths, so do you advocate the parents sue the owner of the wall? The kid who pushed? The council? Of course not.
This was an accident. The damage done was, thankfully, small. If the dog had previous form, then the owner would be negligent. But a first-off incident which resulted in a bruise? I don't fancy their chances.

Rayne Wooney · 06-11-2013 8:37pm

If the dog just locked on to your child's head for no reason it obviously needs to be either put down or sent for behavioural training and rehoming.

But you say you looked away and weren't looking at that time, and it seems strange that a dog who was fine would just do this out of nowhere.

Is if common for dogs to be put down for possibly defending themselves? I think that's a bit drastic if so

Rick Rod · 06-11-2013 8:38pm

DBB wrote: »

Why would you involve the Gardai? No law was broken. This is a civil issue.
If the op were to sue, they would need to demonstrate loss, injury or damage caused by negligence. Whilst this incident was very unpleasant, I think the op would have quite the job to demonstrate any of this.
The hysteria here is... Jaw dropping. Kids have accidents, they crash into walls on their bikes, they push each other over, they fall over footpaths, so do you advocate the parents sue the owner of the wall? The kid who pushed? The council? Of course not.
This was an accident. The damage done was, thankfully, small. If the dog had previous form, then the owner would be negligent. But a first-off incident which resulted in a bruise? I don't fancy their chances.

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

Bullseye1 · 06-11-2013 8:41pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

What about the parents responsibility and the dog owners responsibilty?

avfc1874 · 06-11-2013 8:42pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

good man,you should never be too upset to forget about sueing someone:rolleyes:

TheBoffin · 06-11-2013 8:42pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

Yea and if your granny had b*lls she would be your grandad. The fact is the dog didn't kill the baby. Lots of things COULD happen.

The dog warned the child, it didn't savage the child. This is an dog owner problem. The dog owner clearly did not have any control of the animal at the time.

And as for the compensation comment, what f*kn bar stool did you hear that one on? Comments like that are exactly what is wrong with society, quick lads lets get some compo.... Sickening.

End of rant!

borderlinemeath · 06-11-2013 8:44pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

Because the dog warned the child off in the only way it knows how? The dog didn't attack, it gave a warning nip. It didn't break the skin. It tried to warn the child to stay away because something about it frightened him. A bit like a human shoving a person away rather than punching them in the face/breaking their nose. The dog was basically saying "leave me alone" rather than "I'm going to kill you" and it's actions proved it.

DBB · 06-11-2013 8:44pm

mathepac wrote: »

Dogs are pack animals and understand the hierarchy and their place in the pack in relation to adults. When a stranger (your little girl) joins the pack, the dog, unless trained or educated otherwise by the adults or pack-leaders, may feel displaced by the attention the new-comer gets. In order to re-establish the old hierarchy the dog may try to physically impose his superiority over the child in the only way he knows.

Whilst the rest of your post is okay, this paragraph demonstrates precisely why the owner needs to get advised by a qualified, certified behaviourist, who will tell them that the above is disproven, utter hocus-pocus, and very damaging.
If dogs really felt as you describe, we could not keep them as pets. It's just that simple.
Perhaps a read of the following site is in order:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

AlanS181824 · 06-11-2013 8:46pm

Please don't get the dog put down, please don't. If your friend doesn't want to keep him then at least have him put into a rehoming facility. Putting the dog down won't help, your baby is okay and that's the main thing, if the poor dog is put down then this will devastate your friend and more than likely put a rift between you two. So again, it is up to you and your friend but please, coming from an animal lover do NOT have the dog put down!

DBB · 06-11-2013 8:48pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

The Gardai will ensure the dog is destroyed before it kills a baby which could easily have happened here

No, no they won't. They have no powers to do so without first going through due process.
Due process involves proper, measured, professional assessment by people who know what they're at. Many dogs have lived to tell the tale as a result, and never offended again. That's the good thing about due process, as opposed to flying off the handle and jumping to silly conclusions.

mathepac · 06-11-2013 8:49pm

borderlinemeath wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish, and is subscribing to pack theories that have been disproven time and time again. Dogs DON'T think like this. They don't have any idea about superiority within the family. The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

Dominance and pack theory are being questioned by experts and examined in the light of new findings and observations - they have never ever been disproven in relation to wolf/dog/pack behaviour towards an inter-loper / stranger / new-comer.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

... The dog in this situation was frightened by the child and said so in the only way he knew how.

This is total and utter rubbish. Did you use canine telepathy or another super-power to establish after-the-fact feelings the dog had?

whupdedo · 06-11-2013 8:56pm

So let me get this straight, you went into another house with a toddler and left the kid down on the ground where their was a dog you knew nothing about, it maddens me every time I hear story's like this.thankfully nothing serious happened your kid but a bit more awareness around dogs with young children would not go amiss. Is their really anything to gain by putting down a dog that reacts to a situation it hasn't had a choice of being involved in. Awareness around animals however safe you think they are is a human responsibility,after all,we humans do class then as dumb animals, and are then surprised when they actually act dumb. My advice is count your blessings and learn a valuable lesson

Rick Rod · 06-11-2013 8:57pm

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Because the dog warned the child off in the only way it knows how? The dog didn't attack, it gave a warning nip. It didn't break the skin. It tried to warn the child to stay away because something about it frightened him. A bit like a human shoving a person away rather than punching them in the face/breaking their nose. The dog was basically saying "leave me alone" rather than "I'm going to kill you" and it's actions proved it.

If this is how that dog "defends" itself against a 2 year old then it's dangerous. A danger to babies. I put babies ahead of animals. So does the law. Maybe you don't. That baby-attacking dog needs to be put down before it attacks again.

borderlinemeath · 06-11-2013 8:58pm

mathepac wrote: »

Dominance and pack theory are being questioned by experts and examined in the light of new findings and observations - they have never ever been disproven in relation to wolf/dog/pack behaviour towards an inter-loper / stranger / new-comer.
This is total and utter rubbish. Did you use canine telepathy or another super-power to establish after-the-fact feelings the dog had?

Newsflash for you.

Domestic dogs aren't wolves. Closely related but certainly not the same thing. And the pack theory that you speak of was studied on captive wolves that did not exhibit the behaviours of wild wolves. But why let facts get in the way of rubbish theories spouted by the likes of Cesar Milan, who is covered in scars to prove how useless he is at 'dog whispering' or whetever rubbish he likes to call it.

The dog exhibited bite inhibition. It is what dogs do to warn people or other animals away when they're frightened of something. Not canine telepathy but facts on why dogs behave as they do.

wexie · 06-11-2013 8:59pm

Rick Rod wrote: »

Inform the Gardai immediately and make sure the dog is put down before it turns on another poor child. You may also be able to sue against the insurance company

Are you sure you don't want to create some more hysteria? Cause that's just what a thread like this needs.

Maybe we should discuss having the owner put down and sueing the parents for raising a bad dog owner?

DBB · 06-11-2013 9:03pm

mathepac wrote: »

Dominance and pack theory are being questioned by experts and examined in the light of new findings and observations - they have never ever been disproven in relation to wolf/dog/pack behaviour towards an inter-loper / stranger / new-comer.

They are not new findings... The research has been going on for almost 20 years. The issue is pretty much being left behind by researchers at this stage as a no-brainer.
Wolves don't dominate strangers or interlopers. Neither do dogs. Sure, they may be wary of them, wolves may even kill an interloper. But that ain't the same thing as dominance.
Dogs don't do packs either.
You're on seriously tenuous ground in trying to defend your comments about pack theory. I'm not sure if you're qualified in the field of animal behaviour science, but I don't know one single person who is, in the whole world, who'd agree with your take on dog pack theory, or how dogs view children, or "interlopers".

TheBoffin · 06-11-2013 9:03pm

wexie wrote: »

Are you sure you don't want to create some more hysteria? Cause that's just what a thread like this needs.

Maybe we should discuss having the owner put down and sueing the parents for raising a bad dog owner?

Ah no... jaysis girl.... bit of compo yea!!! Few nights out on the lash!!! deadly!

* In the voice of Nidge from Love Hate!

fredweena · 06-11-2013 9:08pm

No dog, however loved, should get a second chance when it comes to young children. If your friend can rehome the dog she has a responsibility to inform everyone of this instance. We rehomed a terrier once that had bitten but he went to a man who used him for hunting and everyone was happy. Dogs are great but children are more important. I feel sorry for both of you in this situation.

handlemaster · 06-11-2013 9:11pm

Its funny reading the comments here from its an owners problem not a dog problem to sueing. The dog has shown aggressive behaviour in biting a defenceless child. It needs to be removedfrom contact with all younh kids kids . In Reality this is not possible. The dog I would think needs to be put down. Failing that maybe the people calling for leaving the dog alone would like to offer their two year olds so the dog can be " trained" how to behave

DBB · 06-11-2013 9:14pm

fredweena wrote: »

If your friend can rehome the dog she has a responsibility to inform everyone of this instance.

This is very, very important. In fact, it is possible that if an owner rehomed a dog who they know has bitten, but did not inform the new owner and the dog bit again, the original owner could be held liable.

cathy01 · 06-11-2013 9:14pm

Hi all.it would brake my heart of the dog was to be put down.my daughter didn't hit it or pull it.honestly I think the only reason it did t break the skin was because my friend was so quick and my baby was right beside us.her dog seemed to bark at first when we got there but that's because he didn't know us.she does have kids three,the youngest is twelve.
I would hate to loose her as a friend and will never go into her house if the dog is there.i do think there could be options .if she put the dog into a room she. Visitors called but would that really be an option.
I think my daughter was very lucky today.
I ,at first thought yes it's like an unspoken rule once a dog bites ESP a child then it had to be put down.i did think this would be the outcome.
I'm glad I posted now .ill talk to her and maybe make sure he has never bitten before. Anyone not just a child.hopefully it was a once off.im torn I'm writing this and then read the headlines about the other little girl.im such a dope for taking a chance for letting her off my knee.
I am now afraid of dogs.and I have one.
I just hope my friend makes the right choice in a very difficult decision.but I think deep Down I could never live with myself if her family lost their dog because of a situation I helped make .my daughter definitely didn't pull the dog.
Our dog is used to her .she would call him and pet him and somedays hug him.hes part of our family and I'd hate to have to have him put to sleep .
Really what I was hoping for as a reply is Dont worry Cathy maybe it was a once off.the Reply that if he wanted to break the skin he would off is scary.honestly I think it's because we where quick.
Anyway thanks everyone for the advice.im going to txt my friend and hope shes ok .my little girl is bruised ,she has a mark on her cheek but I thi k its more from the bang when her face was on the ground.shes telling people
"Bold wow wow teeth " so she is talking about it.cuddles helped as did sweets.
Thanks all.

TheBoffin · 06-11-2013 9:19pm

cathy01 wrote: »

Hi all.it would brake my heart of the dog was to be put down.my daughter didn't hit it or pull it.honestly I think the only reason it did t break the skin was because my friend was so quick and my baby was right beside us.her dog seemed to bark at first when we got there but that's because he didn't know us.she does have kids three,the youngest is twelve.
I would hate to loose her as a friend and will never go into her house if the dog is there.i do think there could be options .if she put the dog into a room she. Visitors called but would that really be an option.
I think my daughter was very lucky today.
I ,at first thought yes it's like an unspoken rule once a dog bites ESP a child then it had to be put down.i did think this would be the outcome.
I'm glad I posted now .ill talk to her and maybe make sure he has never bitten before. Anyone not just a child.hopefully it was a once off.im torn I'm writing this and then read the headlines about the other little girl.im such a dope for taking a chance for letting her off my knee.
I am now afraid of dogs.and I have one.
I just hope my friend makes the right choice in a very difficult decision.but I think deep Down I could never live with myself if her family lost their dog because of a situation I helped make .my daughter definitely didn't pull the dog.
Our dog is used to her .she would call him and pet him and somedays hug him.hes part of our family and I'd hate to have to have him put to sleep .
Really what I was hoping for as a reply is Dont worry Cathy maybe it was a once off.the Reply that if he wanted to break the skin he would off is scary.honestly I think it's because we where quick.
Anyway thanks everyone for the advice.im going to txt my friend and hope shes ok .my little girl is bruised ,she has a mark on her cheek but I thi k its more from the bang when her face was on the ground.shes telling people
"Bold wow wow teeth " so she is talking about it.cuddles helped as did sweets.
Thanks all.

I think your response is a rational one. Glad to see it end well.

whupdedo · 06-11-2013 9:21pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Its funny reading the comments here from its an owners problem not a dog problem to sueing. The dog has shown aggressive behaviour in biting a defenceless child. It needs to be removedfrom contact with all younh kids kids . In Reality this is not possible. The dog I would think needs to be put down. Failing that maybe thee dog alone would like to offer their two year olds so the dog can be " trained" how to behave

Maybe the people with 2 year kids and calling for a reprieve of the dogs life have more common sense than to leave a child on the ground with a strange dog, for instance would u leave the child in a stable with a horse and then ask for the horse to be put down if said horse kicked the child, that's an extreme scenario, but let's get real. Putting a dog down because of human incompetence is also extreme

stezie · 06-11-2013 9:24pm

If the dog intended to, it would pierce the skin in an instant.

If you see a pup playing with an older dog, the older dog would try to teech the pup manners with a nip, and the pup might yelp. This may of happened here.

your friends dog is it around kids all the time?

My friend has two young kids (6month and 2 year) and a labrador. My labrador doesnt have kids about, so I wont let my labrador play with his kids, even though them kids are well used to dogs. I would be scared that my dog would be excited by these "little people" and may nip their fingers or soft bit of skin, by accident.

If the dog was agitated and aggressive, then yes id put it down.

If the dog over stepped the mark and played rough, id put it down to lesson learned, leave the dog be and never leave your kid down beside a strange dog again.

Common sense is needed around dogs, they arent humans and dont think like humans either.

dubbie82 · 06-11-2013 9:25pm

I don't really agree that the dog needs to be put down just like that. We don't know the whole story, we don't know what breed the dog is, was this a first that he went after a child, is he even used to children etc.
Just like DBB a few post earlier I am just trying to give you some context here. The OP didn't see what happend, maybe the child unintentionally provoked the dog, pulled his tail or poked his eye? These things happen fast and a dog will defend himselfthe only way he can and that is with his teeth.
We used to have a dog but were all teenages when we got him. He didn't like sall children, simply because he wasn't used to them. When my little nephew was born he got used to him and probably would have defended the boy with his life but again the boy was thought to respect the dog in return and they got used to each other.
I remember one particular incident when the dog snapped a neighbours kid when she was small, turns out that she tried to take away his bone and he snapped at her hand and bit her but never broke the skin.
So maybe the OP and the Dog's owner needs to have a chat with the Vet or someone who has a better knowledge of that particular dog before making a decision.

borderlinemeath · 06-11-2013 9:27pm

cathy01 wrote: »

Hi all.it would brake my heart of the dog was to be put down.my daughter didn't hit it or pull it.honestly I think the only reason it did t break the skin was because my friend was so quick and my baby was right beside us.her dog seemed to bark at first when we got there but that's because he didn't know us.she does have kids three,the youngest is twelve.
I would hate to loose her as a friend and will never go into her house if the dog is there.i do think there could be options .if she put the dog into a room she. Visitors called but would that really be an option.

There is a difference between a twelve year old and a two year old. Toddlers make involuntary movements, anything from lifting her hands up to moving her legs could have spooked the dog. A twelve year old, while still a child, is much more adult like in their movements and voice. Has the dog grown up with the children or is it a new addition to the household?

I think my daughter was very lucky today.
I ,at first thought yes it's like an unspoken rule once a dog bites ESP a child then it had to be put down.i did think this would be the outcome.
I'm glad I posted now .ill talk to her and maybe make sure he has never bitten before. Anyone not just a child.hopefully it was a once off.im torn I'm writing this and then read the headlines about the other little girl.im such a dope for taking a chance for letting her off my knee.
I am now afraid of dogs.and I have one.

You shouldn't be afraid of dogs, but you should always supervise any interaction. Also read up on dog body language and the signals that a dog gives out. So much can be learned from the way they hold their head/ears/tail, their eyes too.

I just hope my friend makes the right choice in a very difficult decision.but I think deep Down I could never live with myself if her family lost their dog because of a situation I helped make .my daughter definitely didn't pull the dog.

As I've said, any little bit of movement could have spooked the dog, particularly as he's not used to children this small. She wouldn't have had to pull him to spook him [/QUOTE]

Our dog is used to her .she would call him and pet him and somedays hug him.hes part of our family and I'd hate to have to have him put to sleep .
Really what I was hoping for as a reply is Dont worry Cathy maybe it was a once off.the Reply that if he wanted to break the skin he would off is scary.honestly I think it's because we where quick.

And you should always supervise any interaction with your dog and child. And again, read up on body language, it can be invaluable knowledge.

Anyway thanks everyone for the advice.im going to txt my friend and hope shes ok .my little girl is bruised ,she has a mark on her cheek but I thi k its more from the bang when her face was on the ground.shes telling people
"Bold wow wow teeth " so she is talking about it.cuddles helped as did sweets.
Thanks all.

Great that she's ok and not permanently damaged.

biggebruv · 06-11-2013 9:28pm

cathy01 wrote: »

Hi all.it would brake my heart of the dog was to be put down.my daughter didn't hit it or pull it.honestly I think the only reason it did t break the skin was because my friend was so quick and my baby was right beside us.her dog seemed to bark at first when we got there but that's because he didn't know us.she does have kids three,the youngest is twelve.
I would hate to loose her as a friend and will never go into her house if the dog is there.i do think there could be options .if she put the dog into a room she. Visitors called but would that really be an option.
I think my daughter was very lucky today.
I ,at first thought yes it's like an unspoken rule once a dog bites ESP a child then it had to be put down.i did think this would be the outcome.
I'm glad I posted now .ill talk to her and maybe make sure he has never bitten before. Anyone not just a child.hopefully it was a once off.im torn I'm writing this and then read the headlines about the other little girl.im such a dope for taking a chance for letting her off my knee.
I am now afraid of dogs.and I have one.
I just hope my friend makes the right choice in a very difficult decision.but I think deep Down I could never live with myself if her family lost their dog because of a situation I helped make .my daughter definitely didn't pull the dog.
Our dog is used to her .she would call him and pet him and somedays hug him.hes part of our family and I'd hate to have to have him put to sleep .
Really what I was hoping for as a reply is Dont worry Cathy maybe it was a once off.the Reply that if he wanted to break the skin he would off is scary.honestly I think it's because we where quick.
Anyway thanks everyone for the advice.im going to txt my friend and hope shes ok .my little girl is bruised ,she has a mark on her cheek but I thi k its more from the bang when her face was on the ground.shes telling people
"Bold wow wow teeth " so she is talking about it.cuddles helped as did sweets.
Thanks all.

That's the first sign right there I have a lab whos the sweetest thing in the world but id still never leave him alone with my 3 year old cousin for a second. Never trust a dog that does not live with a kid is what I say

glad to hear your baby is fine

im just curious to know what kind of dog has your friend got anyways?
if you already said somewhere in thread sorry i missed it

wexie · 06-11-2013 9:29pm

cathy01 wrote: »

I would hate to loose her as a friend and will never go into her house if the dog is there.i do think there could be options .if she put the dog into a room she. Visitors called but would that really be an option.
I think my daughter was very lucky today.
I ,at first thought yes it's like an unspoken rule once a dog bites ESP a child then it had to be put down.i did think this would be the outcome.
I'm glad I posted now .ill talk to her and maybe make sure he has never bitten before. Anyone not just a child.hopefully it was a once off.im torn I'm writing this and then read the headlines about the other little girl.im such a dope for taking a chance for letting her off my knee.
I am now afraid of dogs.and I have one.
I just hope my friend makes the right choice in a very difficult decision.but I think deep Down I could never live with myself if her family lost their dog because of a situation I helped make .my daughter definitely didn't pull the dog.
Our dog is used to her .she would call him and pet him and somedays hug him.hes part of our family and I'd hate to have to have him put to sleep .
Really what I was hoping for as a reply is Dont worry Cathy maybe it was a once off.the Reply that if he wanted to break the skin he would off is scary.honestly I think it's because we where quick.
Anyway thanks everyone for the advice.im going to txt my friend and hope shes ok .my little girl is bruised ,she has a mark on her cheek but I thi k its more from the bang when her face was on the ground.shes telling people
"Bold wow wow teeth " so she is talking about it.cuddles helped as did sweets.
Thanks all.

You shouldn't be scared by someone telling you that if the dog had wanted to break the skin it would have, it's a good indication that the dog wasn't actually aggressive. If the dog really had had vicious intent it would have broken the skin, regardless of how quick you'd have been either your child's or your friends when interferring.

And with regards to your daughter not having pulled the dog unfortunately it's not that simple, 2 yr olds aren't great at reading doggy body language (neither are a lot of adults) and there may well have been warning signals before.

The dog may just have want to be left alone, could the dog get away from the child? If they were under the table maybe it felt cornered. Is it an older dog? etc. etc. etc.

Really, regardless of what people here think they know there's nobody here on the thread that can make any statements on whether or not that dog is fit to be around people or needs to be pts without seeing the dog and observing its behaviour in various situation.

In my experience, sadly, in these scenario's the main thing that stops a dog like this from being fully rehabilitated and living a happy life in it's home is the owners having lost trust in the dog. (understandably)

So rehoming could be a very viable option but like people already pointed out it would need to be done well, dog assessed and home assessed.

I hope your little one is okay, I'd imagine she will be, kids are great like that.

Tea Tree · 06-11-2013 9:36pm

similar happened with my child and my mothers dog a few years back. I'll never forget that snarl and snap sound:(. I turned expecting to see blood gushing but there was just a little mark above his eye. With the benefit of hindsight and having learned more about dogs since I now know that all the warning signs were there but I just didnt see them or recognise them. The child naturally stayed away from the dog after that and the dog didnt want to be near him anyway. after that on the rare occasions that any little visitors were at the house the dog was put out in her shed. no problems. she was happier away from the chaos anyway.

My own dog is put into her bed in the utility room if there are any visitors with small kids as she is over exuberant and could easily knock over and frighten a child. I also dont trust her 100% for various reasons though she's never bitten anyone in her time with us. It's not a problem for her to be kept out of the room for a while. If it's going to be a long time one of us will take her out for a little walk at some point but I'd rather not risk having anyone hurt.
I would think your friend would be happy to do likewise.....

aN.Droid · 06-11-2013 9:37pm

First off I hope your little one is okay and doesnt develope a fear of dogs because of this.

Now with that said and it may have already been said in the thread already as I have not read past to OP right now responsibility has to be taken on both sides.

You mention that the dog did not break the skin? Sounds like the dog was being defensive rather then aggressive. If the dog wanted ot it could of broken the skin very easily. This leads me to believe that the dog may have felt intimidated or confused.

With that I would not simply have the dog PTS. I Would 100% recommend the dog be better socialized though and have a behaviorist take a look into it.

Your share of the blame comes from having your child on the floor in the same room as a dog. No matter how well you know the dog you should never let your child around one as young as yours was.

Again I hope your child is okay.

Again I have not read the entire thread so sorry if anything here was mentioned already or some of the information contradicts further information posted.

falabo · 06-11-2013 9:40pm

'The dog has to be put down'

Such an Irish reaction.

- was the dog socvialised from a young age ?
- has the dog been brought to the vet for a health check ?
- what was the baby doing on the floor with the dog ?
- is the dog walked on a daily basis
- does the owner interact with the dog on a daily basis

Dogs don't bite for no reason.

Glad to hear the baby is fine but the dog doesn't have to die at least not before being assessed by a REPUTABLE behaviourist.

Pumpkinseeds · 06-11-2013 9:43pm

It must have been a terrifying experience for all who were involved. However, I don't understand the lynch mob mentality of some people insisting on killing the dog. There are other avenues to be explored, such as a dog behaviourist, before considering killing the dog. Make no mistake, it is killing the dog, not putting it to sleep.

It must be an awful predicament for both the OP and the dogs owner to be in and what's needed is cool heads and constructive action, not knee jerk hysteria from people who weren't present at the time. I'm so glad that the OP's child wasn't seriously injured, I realise that it could have been far more serious.

cathy01 · 06-11-2013 9:43pm

Again thanks for the replies.
I'm not going to say the breed .because I think it doesn't really matter.
A dog is a dog is a dog.
He is their family pet.i don't know how long she has him.i can't say it more strongly honestly my daughter was sitting next to my foot really close to me.i agree I shouldn't have taken her word for it that he's ok.i took a chance I never should off .it is a mistake I made and she nearly paid dearly for it.i will never ever let her near a dog again no matter how well behaved he is for its owner.she was supervised within arms reach with a dog I was told was ok and friendly.
Thanks ill let yous know what she chooses to do but all the advice has help.
Ps I would never ever ever think of sueing.
She's a friend ,I am my daughters mam .it was my job and is my job to look out for her .if anyone should sue its my little girl.i would gladly hand over every penny I have . It would still be a small price for a big lesson learnt .

wexie · 06-11-2013 9:47pm

cathy01 wrote: »

I'm not going to say the breed .because I think it doesn't really matter.

Good on you, depending on what breed it is it could just cause more hysteria.

Good luck with everything

wobbles · 06-11-2013 10:03pm

My question here is why was a child on the floor with a dog where you or the owner didnt know how he would react to it.

If the dog had not been socialised with kids it should have been kept separate from the child while she was in the house. End of story. Getting the dog destroyed is not the answer and is taking the easy way out. The dog is like that because it has never been taught any different and hot to react in such circumstances. Instinct simply took over.

The dog was comfortable in that situation, owner didnt recognise the warning signs, dog acted out protecting itself. Had the dog been aggressive your child would have far more injuries than she has. Ive been around dogs all my life and you learn to read a dog by its reactions. If your in any doubt whether it was being aggressive or not then it wasnt. You will know for sure if its being aggressive if it had been

Cocolola · 06-11-2013 10:07pm

Hi OP.

Sorry about what happened, glad your little one is ok though. As has been said before, this was just the dog's way of warning her to back off without wanting to cause any harm. I know you said your daughter didn't do anything to the dog but it may still have been showing signs of stress and anxiety that can be hard to read if you don't know what they are. This pic I found very helpful for my niece and her parents once she started interacting with our dogs at home.

I hope you both can get past this in time and that it doesn't have a lasting effect on how you see dogs.

trades101 · 06-11-2013 10:12pm

It's not fair that whenever a dog bites someone they get put down. If you bit someone would you get put down.
If your daughter bit the dog would your daughter be put down ?
Of course not.
In future the dog should be put in a room when visiting bit he should not be put down.