Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:48PM

hansfrei wrote: »

Totally agree. The answer is to make social wecare inspectors do their fcujing jobs or hire some extra staff temporarily if needs be.

I don't get the objections people have. At the same time it's fairly obvious where this is going. We shouldn't co-operate from that POV. I'd expect gards to have an ounce of common sense about this too.

i agree i have no problem with them catching SW fraud just not at my expense or expense of my freedom to move about without harassment

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 11:49PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

ok then he can stop and ask....but you have every right to tell him to get stuffed. there is no law that requires you to freely give this information to a guard

That's right, personally I would rather not give my PPSN, and would say so, giving legitimate reasons of privacy, and instead explaining where I am coming from and where I am going, politely.

But you'd have to be careful a suspicion could not arise.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Show us the direct legislation then SW has nothing to do with garda

Technoprisoner wrote: »

show us this magical piece of law that you keep referring to

The Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2011 is an example of a piece of legislation under which serious social welfare fraud was prosecuted in the circuit court recently.

The Gardaí have a duty to detect crime, including theft and fraud, and the law provides for the discharge of that duty. I agree the current law is too uncertain and broad, but that is how it is at the moment

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:50PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

That's right, personally I would rather not give my PPSN, and would say so, giving legitimate reasons of privacy, and instead explaining where I am coming from and where I am going, politely.

But I suspect a lot of

The Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2011 is an example of a piece of legislation under which serious social welfare fraud was prosecuted in the circuit court recently.

but where does it say in this act that a guard may stop you at a check point and ask for details such as if you are working and what is your pps number

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:51PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Because sw fraud is a crime and gardai have right to stop and question in order to detect crime.

fraud falls under the revenue does it not ? A garda can arrest you for it but not randomly go around stopping people he has no suspicions of

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:51PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

so you agree that if you pull up to a check point that if the guard ask for your pps number or if you are employed that you can tell the guard that you dont wish to divulge this information with them

Currently(pre sw act 2014) yes. But it would raise suspicions that you were a sw cheat. So you be risking arrest.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:53PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

fraud falls under the revenue does it not ? A garda can arrest you for it but not randomly go around stopping people he has no suspicions of

Why do you think S welfare fraud goes under revenue?

Good God!

It's legislated for under s welfare acts.

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 11:53PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

but where does it say in this act that a guard may stop you at a check point and ask for details such as if you are working and what is your pps number

He doesn't need that.

s.109 of the road traffic act allows the Garda to stop drivers, without a specific suspicion, so he can discharge his duty to detect crime.

Discharging such duties requires that the Garda asks questions.The questions a Garda asks you do not have to be prescribed by laws, it is sufficient that they are relevant to crime detection.

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 11:54PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

i agree i have no problem with them catching SW fraud just not at my expense or expense of my freedom to move about without harassment

I'll go one further. I've no problem some SW fraud. What pisses me off is the massive fraud thats draining fcuking huge amounts of my wage.

The government, their unions and their banker mates can fcuk right off.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:57PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Currently(pre sw act 2014) yes. But it would raise suspicions that you were a sw cheat. So you be risking arrest.

No just no this will get challenged by some scumbag and he will win.. If they suspect Fraud then go to the house or cut off there benefits simple. Why should other people suffer for a % of a % of a % doing this. What next garda coming to your house checking your car parked in the driveway tax insurance log book drivers licence ? i could go on. If we as citizens don't say no they will just keep going and going to see what they can get away with.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:58PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Why do you think S welfare fraud goes under revenue?

Good God!

It's legislated for under s welfare acts.

Because your defrauding the state not a person..

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:58PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Currently(pre sw act 2014) yes. But it would raise suspicions that you were a sw cheat. So you be risking arrest.

no it would not...lol.....you have a right to tell them that this information is none of their business. so how does this give them the power of arrest?

just the same as if you pulled up to a check point and the guard ask you " did you have sex last night" and if you tell him to mind his own business, that he now has reasonable suspicion that you committed rape and can arrest you for it

dxhound2005 · 18-10-2013 11:59PM

Social Welfare Act 2005 contains the following.

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec250

TheCoolWay · 19-10-2013 12:02AM

As if the Guards can be arsed? Apart from the 20 assigned ones

Technoprisoner · 19-10-2013 12:02AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Social Welfare Act 2005 contains the following.

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec250

so they can only stop cars the they "reasonably suspect" i would imagine that means they can see tools ect in the car. if not then they do not have enough evidence to ask the questions

old_aussie · 19-10-2013 12:02AM

So how does that work?

Everyone will know the purpose of the checkpoint.

Pig to Paddy...where you going Paddy?

Paddy to Pig...I'm on my way to find work....early job hunter gets the job.

Pig to Paddy...on ya way then and good luck getting the job,.

WTF

ezra_pound · 19-10-2013 12:02AM

If the Legal specialists in DSP and the garda siochana are uncertain of powers then you can be sure that sufficient powers will be legislated for shortly. End of.

If you have a problem with that legislation you can lodge a JR motion in the central office of the high court.

Good luck with that!

Technoprisoner · 19-10-2013 12:03AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If the Legal specialists in DSP and the garda siochana are uncertain of powers then you can be sure that sufficient powers will be legislated for shortly. End of.

If you have a problem with that legislation you can lodge a JR motion in the central office of the high court.

Good luck with that!

you are assuming that they will introduce new law to cover this lol

Cody Pomeray · 19-10-2013 12:03AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Social Welfare Act 2005 contains the following.

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

That's not really relevant to the new proposal; the new proposal relates to a general suspicion of fraud in the community. It applies generally, without specific suspicions, and is provided for in the 1961 act.

The above provision relates only to a specific person, who is being targeted on the basis of a specific suspicion.

darkpagandeath · 19-10-2013 12:04AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Social Welfare Act 2005 contains the following.

(16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

(a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

(b) on production of his or her certificate of appointment, where so requested, question and make enquiries of any person in the vehicle or require that person to give to the social welfare inspector any record relating to his or her employment or self-employment which the person has possession of in the vehicle, and examine it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0026/print.html#sec250

So that means the SW inspector suspects or has been tipped off there not stopping people at random. they cant just pull over some random car can they. hence garda cant just randomly ask you for a pps number

darkpagandeath · 19-10-2013 12:06AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

No statutorily they can stop any cars.

That is common law powers discussed.

No sorry that nonsense they have to suspect or be given information that that van has SW scammers in it

ezra_pound · 19-10-2013 12:07AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No sorry that nonsense they have to suspect or be given information that that van has SW scammers in it

Sorry thought it was commenting on a quite I put up earlier- yes I now realise he was referring to 2005 act.

ezra_pound · 19-10-2013 12:08AM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

you are assuming that they will introduce new law to cover this lol

Why not? That is what the dail do after all.

dxhound2005 · 19-10-2013 12:10AM

How does this work for Customs at Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints, looking for green diesel. There is no way they can tell if there is illegal diesel in a domestic car by just looking at it. So how can they dip the tank? Can someone drive around for years by with green diesel by just saying to the Customs and the Gardai "May I be on my way" ?

darkpagandeath · 19-10-2013 12:10AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Why not? That is what the dail do after all.

If we let them yes yes they do we have rights this is not a banana republic.

ezra_pound · 19-10-2013 12:11AM

Anyway I for one think that it's great. Hate social welfare cheats.

darkpagandeath · 19-10-2013 12:11AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How does this work for Customs at Multi Agency Vehicle Checkpoints, looking for green diesel. There is no way they can tell if there is illegal diesel in a domestic car by just looking at it. So how can they dip the tank? Can someone drive around for years by with green diesel by just saying to the Customs and the Gardai "May I be on my way" ?

Have different powers just like boarder control

darkpagandeath · 19-10-2013 12:13AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Anyway I for one think that it's great. Hate social welfare cheats.

so do i but there are way cheaper more effective ways than just setting up checkpoints. Suspect fraud cut off welfare let them come in and prove there not defrauding the state.

dxhound2005 · 19-10-2013 12:13AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Have different powers just like boarder control

But I thought it all came down to a suspicion that a crime was being commited? What powers can they use to force someone to let them dip the tank if that person says they are using legal fuel?

ezra_pound · 19-10-2013 12:13AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If we let them yes yes they do we have rights this is not a banana republic.

What rights? Whent the 2014 act is promulgated what rights will stop the gardai busting welfare fraud at the road block?

darkpagandeath · 19-10-2013 12:14AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But I thought it all came down to a suspicion that a crime was being commited? What powers can they use to force someone to let them dip the tank if that person says they are using legal fuel?

Pass prob the same way they can open containers and so on on the border

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

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