Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 11:31PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

it has nothing to do with nailing fraudsters....but has everything to do with invasion of privacy. you have a right not to be harassed in your daily travels. what happens if they decide that checkpoints are not enough and that they want the guards on every street corner asking people walking down the road to produce there identification and pps number?

True. The fact that we have a power mad, nazi fruitcake at the helm has been missed by every other poster here and apparently by every garda too.

Easier to arrest Cowen, some bankers and a whole bunch of people who supported treason surely than to hassle people on their way to work?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:31PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Pps number has nothing to do with road traffic offences

That's totally beside the point. This has nothing to do with road traffic law.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:32PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

I was harassed recently by garda. He made me blow into a balloon and then ascertained that I hadn't been drinking. He knows WAY TOO MUCH about my personal life.

He also had the cheek to ask 'have y drink taken?'

Yes under the road traffic act they can ask you to provide a specimen if they smell drink off you. Can you smell Fraud off someone ?

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 11:32PM

This post has been deleted.

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 11:33PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I'd love to hear the conversation between Gardaí at times like this. I'd like to think they don't take that attitude, but yes, offences like breach of the peace provide extremely broad grounds for arrest.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the circumstances of the case. If you had, say, work documents with you, and could ground a reasonable objection to producing your PPS number in law, I think that would form a strong basis for refusing to comply. If you were calm and courteous, I think very few Gardaí could ground a reasonable suspicion, honestly held, from that interaction.

It's really a case by case issue. If you were nervous and agitated and refused to give your PPSN, I think a reasonable suspicion would arise.

This is just wrong.

I know the difference. I don't think you do.

Obviously not.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:33PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

That's totally beside the point. This has nothing to do with road traffic law.

So road traffic checkpoints have noting to do with the road traffic act now ? So you will have no problem with garda setting up a random stop search outside your house for no reason then ? as you know that would be illegal

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:34PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

I was harassed recently by garda. He made me blow into a balloon and then ascertained that I hadn't been drinking. He knows WAY TOO MUCH about my personal life.

He also had the cheek to ask 'have y drink taken?'

but there is a specific piece of law for that situation. There is no law where it states a garda can stop you an request your employment status or pps number.

The guards can not just assume that everyone is a welfare cheat and use that as ground to legaly gain this information from you

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 11:36PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

but there is a specific piece of law for that situation. There is no law where it states a garda can stop you an request your employment status or pps number.

The guards can not just assume that everyone is a welfare cheat and use that as ground to legaly gain this information from you

Think the gards are just standing in for social welfare inspectors like.

Fred Swanson · 18-10-2013 11:37PM

This post has been deleted.

Cody Pomeray · 18-10-2013 11:38PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

what is wrong with it?

The idea that a Garda cannot ask you a question unless the law sanctions that question.

The law provides that a Garda has a right both at common law and in statute to stop a motorist without any specific suspicion.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that once he stops that motorist, the purpose of which is to detect crime, he has no right to speak to that motorist? That there is a positive legal bar on communication?

Come on this is just silly stuff now. s.109 and the Supreme Court in Fagan specifically refer to the Garda discharging his duties. Of course he can ask you for your PPSN, when the object is to detect crime; you do not have to reply, but if you do not reply, you should be certain that you are not causing a suspicion to arise.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:38PM

hansfrei wrote: »

Think the gards are just standing in for social welfare inspectors like.

And if people just happily let them were will it end ? You cannot run this country like a dictatorship. We have rights as citizens

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:38PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So road traffic checkpoints have noting to do with the road traffic act now ? So you will have no problem with garda setting up a random stop search outside your house for no reason then ? as you know that would be illegal

If a check point is set up to find kidnappers then that would have nothing to do with road traffic acts. Likewise this would not either

old_aussie · 18-10-2013 11:40PM

Yawns wrote: »

Nutters, you may carry on nutting.

Thanks for the go-ahead buddy

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:40PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

If a check point is set up to find kidnappers then that would have nothing to do with road traffic acts. Likewise this would not either

Because a serious crime has been committed in the vicinity yes they have that power.

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:40PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The idea that a Garda cannot ask you a question unless the law sanctions that question.

The law provides that a Garda has a right both at common law and in statute to stop a motorist without any specific suspicion.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that once he stops that motorist, the purpose of which is to detect crime, he has no right to speak to that motorist? That there is a positive legal bar on communication?

Come on this is just silly stuff now. s.109 and the Supreme Court in Fagan specifically refer to the Garda discharging his duties. Of course he can ask you for your PPSN, when the object is to detect crime; you do not have to reply, but if you do not reply, you should be certain that you are not causing a suspicion to arise.

ok then he can stop and ask....but you have every right to tell him to get stuffed. there is no law that requires you to freely give this information to a guard

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:41PM

You can be sure that the gardai will be given clear statutory powers under social welfare act 2014 to bust the bad guys.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:42PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

You can be sure that the gardai will be given clear statutory powers under social welfare act 2014 to bust the bad guys.

Show us the direct legislation then SW has nothing to do with garda

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:43PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

ok then he can stop and ask....but you have every right to tell him to get stuffed. there is no law that requires you to freely give this information to a guard

Yes but if you failed then to provide nameand address he could arrest you.

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:43PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

You can be sure that the gardai will be given clear statutory powers under social welfare act 2014 to bust the bad guys.

show us this magical piece of law that you keep referring to

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:43PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Show us the direct legislation then SW has nothing to do with garda

Social welfare act 2014

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:44PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yes but if you failed then to provide nameand address he could arrest you.

he has a right to ask your name and address but not if you are employed or what is your pps number or are you collecting the dole or are you receiving social welfare payments

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:44PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Show us the direct legislation then SW has nothing to do with garda

I never said Soc welfare has anything to do with garda.

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:45PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yes but if you failed then to provide nameand address he could arrest you.

I have no problem giving them my name and address what does this have to do with my pps number ? I am legally obliged to give my name and address

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:45PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Social welfare act 2014

so you are quoting law that does not exist?

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:45PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

he has a right to ask your name and address but not if you are employed or what is your pps number or are you collecting the dole or are you receiving social welfare payments

Yea I know. God this is going round in circles.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:46PM

Technoprisoner wrote: »

so you are quoting law that does not exist?

Have you not seen back to the future. Hello mctechno anybody home?

darkpagandeath · 18-10-2013 11:46PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

I never said Soc welfare has anything to do with garda.

Then why are you saying they can stop you and suspect you of social welfare fraud ?

hansfrei · 18-10-2013 11:47PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And if people just happily let them were will it end ? You cannot run this country like a dictatorship. We have rights as citizens

Totally agree. The answer is to make social wecare inspectors do their fcujing jobs or hire some extra staff temporarily if needs be.

I don't get the objections people have. At the same time it's fairly obvious where this is going. We shouldn't co-operate from that POV. I'd expect gards to have an ounce of common sense about this too.

ezra_pound · 18-10-2013 11:47PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Then why are you saying they can stop you and suspect you of social welfare fraud ?

Because sw fraud is a crime and gardai have right to stop and question in order to detect crime.

Technoprisoner · 18-10-2013 11:48PM

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yea I know. God this is going round in circles.

so you agree that if you pull up to a check point that if the guard ask for your pps number or if you are employed that you can tell the guard that you dont wish to divulge this information with them

Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

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