The Fianna Fáil voter

val3500dub · 07-10-2013 04:30PM

Well said Cletus van Damme

Wendolene · 07-10-2013 04:39PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Eligibility test? Really? If you said that in front of me i'd punch you in the jaw.

Ah, fine words indeed :rolleyes: Words that make the case for an eligibility test stronger and stronger.

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

I have voted in every election I have been entitled to vote in in Ireland since I was 18. I have paid my taxes, been law abiding and never asked for ONE cent off the state.

Then the bastards went and wrecked the place and now i'm abroad like so many others forced out because we can't stand living a life on the dole with no work, no hope, no future.

And I am a full Irish citizen and you are telling me I should take a "test"?

Well, if you can't understand the difference between a referendum and an election, then, yes, that's what I am saying.

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

I'm not the one that needs the test since there are some on here that can't see the connection between the way they voted yesterday and the credibility handed to the Fianna Fáil party. They don't see it because they don't understand politics.

Yesterday the wreckers of our country got a big boost curtesy of the electorate. Or on Friday rather.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

FF picked a position on the referendum that happened to reflect the view of the majority of those who voted. Not the other way around. BTW, the Green Party also adopted a "no" position on the Seanad abolition referendum.

I get that you're ticked off at FF. I really do, and I'm not unsympathetic to your opinion of them.

However, they judged their party position on the Seanad abolition referendum vis-a-vis the electorate better than FG, Labour, SF. Whatever boost they get as a result is a consequence of that judgement rather than a cause of that judgement.

It would be wholly disingenuous to cast a vote in a referendum with sole reference to which party was advocating a "yes" or a "no".

[ "I disagree with the proposed constitutional change, but I'm damned if I'm actually going to vote [B]against[/B] it because some crowd I don't like also disagrees with it ... so I'll show them, so I will, by voting [B]for[/B] the constitutional change ( even though I don't want it ). ]

Such voters need to be weeded out of the election process for their refusal to form their own opinion of the referendum proposal without transferring their political angst at one particular party onto a constitutional matter. Referenda on constitutional changes are far too important to be used as a political piss pot, and that's why I think we need eligibility criteria for suffrage.

Morph the Cat · 07-10-2013 04:41PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Would anyone else be in favour of compulsory voting?

Why? So what if few people turned up?

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 04:47PM

Morph the Cat wrote: »

Why? So what if few people turned up?

Well like democracy should mean every single person in society casts their vote... not just the people who bother to register and vote. Thousands of Irishmen and women died over centuries to earn us the right to vote democratically... the least people can do is turn up and spoil their vote.

donegal__road · 07-10-2013 05:07PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

I changed "boggier" to "sophisticated".

How is that?

Doesn't stand up to much scrutiny though when one thinks of the likes of Lowry and the Healy Reas and the rest of them.:rolleyes:

Lowry is FG

Morph the Cat · 07-10-2013 05:08PM

irishfeen wrote: »

the least people can do is turn up and spoil their vote.

Does that not seem counterproductive? Turn up to spoil your vote?

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 05:10PM

Morph the Cat wrote: »

Does that not seem counterproductive? Turn up to spoil your vote?

Why? .. it would mean you would give the message that you just don't know what the thing is about rather then swaying the vote either way.

Sir Oxman · 07-10-2013 05:13PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Eligibility test? Really? If you said that in front of me i'd punch you in the jaw. I have voted in every election I have been entitled to vote in in Ireland since I was 18. I have paid my taxes, been law abiding and never asked for ONE cent off the state.

Then the bastards went and wrecked the place and now i'm abroad like so many others forced out because we can't stand living a life on the dole with no work, no hope, no future.

And I am a full Irish citizen and you are telling me I should take a "test"?

I'm not the one that needs the test since there are some on here that can't see the connection between the way they voted yesterday and the credibility handed to the Fianna Fáil party. They don't see it because they don't understand politics.

Yesterday the wreckers of our country got a big boost curtesy of the electorate. Or on Friday rather.

Yet again you prove you haven't a clue even though you protest you do!

I voted no but unlike you I can distinguish between an election and a referendum.
I couldn't care less that the likes of ff were also on the no side, to an intelligent voter that means less than nothing in a referendum.

God Almighty.

Frank Lee Midere · 07-10-2013 06:29PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Eligibility test? Really? If you said that in front of me i'd punch you in the jaw. I have voted in every election I have been entitled to vote in in Ireland since I was 18. I have paid my taxes, been law abiding and never asked for ONE cent off the state.

Then the bastards went and wrecked the place and now i'm abroad like so many others forced out because we can't stand living a life on the dole with no work, no hope, no future.

And I am a full Irish citizen and you are telling me I should take a "test"?

I'm not the one that needs the test since there are some on here that can't see the connection between the way they voted yesterday and the credibility handed to the Fianna Fáil party. They don't see it because they don't understand politics.

Yesterday the wreckers of our country got a big boost curtesy of the electorate. Or on Friday rather.

The problem with your view is that it is incorrect. As has been exhaustively pointed out to you in this thread.

1) There was no correlation between "bogger" voting and the NO vote. The opposite, in fact.
2) There was no correlation between the FF vote and the NO vote, as Dublin has the lowest support for FF.
3) The NO vote stands on it's own regardless of who supports it. People who voted the other way didn't automatically support Sinn Fein, for instance.

For someone who can give it out to "boggers" and other "stupid people" you can't really take it when your points are subject to ridicule. grow a pair

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 06:46PM

I never said anyone was stupid.

We can safely deduce that anyone willing to support Fianna Fáil after this disaster has a screw loose.

And THERE IS a direct correlation between Friday's vote and Fianna Fáil. They were the biggest winners. Not only by association but in reality as well as the Senate has ALWAYS been fertile ground for the growth and retirement of the best of them.

You are all so naive - no wonder the country is in the mess it's in.

humanji · 07-10-2013 06:59PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

I never said anyone was stupid.

We can safely deduce that anyone willing to support Fianna Fáil after this disaster has a screw loose.

And THERE IS a direct correlation between Friday's vote and Fianna Fáil. They were the biggest winners. Not only by association but in reality as well as the Senate has ALWAYS been fertile ground for the growth and retirement of the best of them.

You are all so naive - no wonder the country is in the mess it's in.

If you want to continue posting on this site, don't insult it's entire userbase.

Frank Lee Midere wrote:

grow a pair

And there's no need for that.

Wendolene · 07-10-2013 07:02PM

OP, you're really not big on understanding the difference between cause and effect, are you ?

Wendolene · 07-10-2013 07:19PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Would anyone else be in favour of compulsory voting? (as in have to turn up on the day to the polling station but with an option on ballet paper to basically spoil their vote with some box like "none" if someone wanted)

TBH, it's something I've begun to lean towards. Compulsory voting in Australia seems to have created an understanding amongst the electorate there that their right to vote is something that should be exercised and not treated with indifference. Suffrage has been a hard-won right in many countries - I would argue it's a privilege - that should be mandatory, but with due account given to ballot objectors.

There's a strong argument made that compulsory voting gives greater legitimacy to the result, once all voting preferences are catered for.

The question of conscientiously and officially registering a spoilt vote could be easily addressed by including an option on all ballots for a "refused vote" ( deliberately cast ) or some sort of "Against All" option ... used in Russia ( ironically enough ) up to about 2006.

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 07:28PM

humanji wrote: »

If you want to continue posting on this site, don't insult it's entire userbase.

Friday was a Fianna Fáil success. Not insulting anyone. Simple fact. See Martin and the party make hay with this (entirely within his rights to do so) and prepare to grit your teeth.

There is a cohort in the country that will support their "own" party (whichever one) no matter what happens or what they do or how much they break the country and that mentality should be challenged for the good of the country.

Of course if a lot of people actually bothered turning out it would have been different.

I don't believe for one second the majority wanted to keep the senate. I think this is another example of the all talk and no action we often hear from Irish people. They didn't bother to get out and vote.

But regardless Fianna Fáil will be delighted at another few bricks added to their new wall of credibility which they are gradually building.

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 07:31PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Friday was a Fianna Fáil success. Not insulting anyone. Simple fact. See Martin and the party make hay with this (entirely within his rights to do so) and prepare to grit your teeth.

There is a cohort in this country that will support their "own" party (whichever one) no matter what happens or what they do or how much they break the country and that mentality should be challenged for the good of the country.

Of course if a lot of people actually bothered turning out it would have been different.

I don't believe for one second the majority wanted to keep the senate. I think this is another example of the all talk and no action we often hear from Irish people. They didn't bother to get out and vote.

But regardless Fianna Fáil will be delighted at another few bricks added to their new wall of credibility which they are gradually building.

Micheal Martin is that you?

Lord TSC · 07-10-2013 07:33PM

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

After, therfore, because of.

Now I want to watch The West Wing again....

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 07:37PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Micheal Martin is that you?

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Micheal Martin?:pac:

My attitude to Fianna Fáil would be similar to Sideshow Bob's attitude to Bart Simpson*.

*but not in the crazy way I hasten to add!

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 07:41PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Micheal Martin?:pac:

My attitude to Fianna Fáil would be similar to Sideshow Bob's attitude to Bart Simpson*.

*but not in the crazy way I hasten to add!

Anyone saying Friday's result was a "Fianna Fail success" is either half mad, deluded or running the party :pac:

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 07:44PM

If you are a political party and win a referendum that is a success. Then you go on and milk it for what it's worth. That is politics.

For Forks Sake · 07-10-2013 07:45PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Anyone saying Friday's result was a "Fianna Fail success" is either half mad, deluded or running the party :pac:

Or all three....

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 07:45PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

If you are a political party and win a referendum that is a success. Then you go on and milk it for what it's worth. That is politics.

But they didn't win the referendum - if anything the government went out of their way to loose it.

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 07:46PM

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Or all three....

Touche :pac:

Wendolene · 07-10-2013 07:48PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

Friday was a Fianna Fáil success. Not insulting anyone. Simple fact. See Martin and the party make hay with this (entirely within his rights to do so) and prepare to grit your teeth.

There is a cohort in the country that will support their "own" party (whichever one) no matter what happens or what they do or how much they break the country and that mentality should be challenged for the good of the country.

Of course if a lot of people actually bothered turning out it would have been different.

I don't believe for one second the majority wanted to keep the senate. I think this is another example of the all talk and no action we often hear from Irish people. They didn't bother to get out and vote.

But regardless Fianna Fáil will be delighted at another few bricks added to their new wall of credibility which they are gradually building.

OP, given your abject refusal to understand the difference between a referendum and an election, between a constitutional ballot and a party-political ballot, and between cause and effect ... despite several posters explaining ... are you just trolling ?

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 07:53PM

Wendolene wrote: »

OP, given your abject refusal to understand the difference between a referendum and an election, between a constitutional ballot and a party-political ballot, and between cause and effect ... despite several posters explaining ... are you just trolling ?

You keep trying to provoke me. I'm not taking the bait. My views on this I have already typed. And I am dead cert in those views and my view the referendum has reinforced the dim view of Ireland abroad. Which is unfortunate. But that's that. Nothing I can do about it from here. I would have voted but I can't.

We are one of the view country's in the world not competent enough to run any sort of vote abroad.

You should get out of Ireland, live abroad for a while, look back and then maybe you will get it. Until then you don't get it. Ireland is not run properly and it's as simple as that. Is that the government's fault or the electorate?

Skid X · 07-10-2013 07:55PM

OP, there have been 115 posts on this thread and with virtually everyone is in disagreement with you.

Maybe you are correct and everyone else is wrong. But given the overwhelming weight of opinion to the contrary, is it not time to rethink your position?

You are digging a bigger hole with every post.

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 08:03PM

Skid X wrote: »

OP, there have been 115 posts on this thread and with virtually everyone is in disagreement with you.

It is a victory for Fianna Fáil. Whether people knew it or not is irrelevant. They were fully behind the "no" campaign and they won. Simples.

It does not matter that most were not (i'd like to think!) supporting Fianna Fáil as a party. Fact is they gave them credibility regardless because they won.

Politics.

Wendolene · 07-10-2013 08:12PM

ThePieintheSky wrote: »

You keep trying to provoke me. I'm not taking the bait. My views on this I have already typed. And I am dead cert in those views and my view the referendum has reinforced the dim view of Ireland abroad. Which is unfortunate. But that's that. Nothing I can do about it from here. I would have voted but I can't.

OP, firstly, let me assure you that I'm not trying to provoke you ... but rather, provoke some deeper thought about the result of the referendum than you have so far displayed.

FF will surely bask in the reflected glory of having advocated for the carried result of the referendum - and they can because they advocated in common with how the majority of voters voted - but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of those who voted against it actually wanted to vote against it.

It's very insulting to those voters to diminish their votes as being merely cast along party-political lines in a constitutional referendum, without due respect for the opinions they held about the proposed constitutional changes.

That the result of it reflected FF's advocacy cannot be logically taken to be a vote for FF.

You seem to be lamenting that the electorate didn't use a constitutional referendum to give FF another kicking. That's where some deeper thought is needed.

Manassas61 · 07-10-2013 08:14PM

If Northern Ireland ever is allowed to vote in Republic elections, I would vote Micheál Martin and Fianna Fail and I know other Unionists who would too.

irishfeen · 07-10-2013 08:17PM

Manassas61 wrote: »

If Northern Ireland ever is allowed to vote in Republic elections, I would vote Micheál Martin and Fianna Fail and I know other Unionists who would too.

.. oh god I was all for a UI but after hearing that... maybe not :pac: ... why in the name of god would you vote FF?

ThePieintheSky · 07-10-2013 08:17PM

Wendolene wrote: »

That the result of it reflected FF's advocacy cannot be logically taken to be a vote for FF.

I never said that! That is where the wires are being crossed here.

What I am saying or what I mean is that Fianna Fáil got an unintended proxy confidence vote. Hence yes they will bask in it and use it as a cloak of credibility.

But don't forget you know as well as I do they still command a sizable voter base despite everything that has happened. The supporters will also be emboldend.

That is all I have been saying. I don't know why everyone is jumping at me for stating the obvious.

The Fianna Fáil voter

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