Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

lazygal · 31-07-2013 09:49PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not many at the moment, so lets let the people decide, the balls in the governments court.

But you don't want them to have options, you'd vote against extending abortion rights.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 09:49PM

DP

Galwayguy35 · 31-07-2013 09:49PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Never underestimate what harebrained ideas the Tories will come up with.

Why should we be relying on another country to provide those services anyway? It's a dangerous position to be in. (and despite what the anti-choice movement likes to believe, abortion services are a necessary part of women's reproductive health care practice)

Lets have a straight vote on it then once and for all.

Faith · 31-07-2013 09:49PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Another one putting words in my mouth, its nothing to do with me what they do, if there was a vote here on it i just wouldnt vote for it.

I really genuinely don't understand this attitude. If you're against abortion, surely you think women shouldn't be able to obtain one at all - including going to a different country? Why is it okay for a woman to get an abortion if she's willing to spend thousands and travel to a different country, but not okay if she does it locally? I'd really like to understand the thought processes at play. Why is it okay in a different country but not in Ireland?

eviltwin · 31-07-2013 09:49PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not many at the moment, so lets let the people decide, the balls in the governments court.

Why on earth should "the people" have any say in the fertility of another person/couple?

Galwayguy35 · 31-07-2013 09:53PM

lazygal wrote: »

But you don't want them to have options, you'd vote against extending abortion rights.

Yes i would, but i believe the pro choice side would win to be honest.

I would have cast my vote and you would have done likewise, seems fair.

Twee. · 31-07-2013 09:53PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

They will do what they have always done, take the boat or decide to keep it.

Your idea that the Brits will ban Irish women going over will never happen.

So it's ok as long as it's not on Irish soil?

That TheJournal.ie article had me in tears. That poor couple. And they're just one, how many others have had to go through that? The baby was very much wanted and to be born into a loving family. They didn't use abortion for emergency contraception, or they got pregnant at the wrong time, they weren't too young to have a baby etc, or all those other reasons that people seem to think women/couples have abortions for. Sometimes it's much simpler. The baby was not going to survive.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 09:55PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Yes i would, but i believe the pro choice side would win to be honest.

I would have cast my vote and you would have done likewise, seems fair.

Suppose your 'side' won. What do women in crisis pregnancy situations do? Why is it okay to kill a baby next door but not in Ireland?

Galwayguy35 · 31-07-2013 09:55PM

homemadecider wrote: »

But you don't object to women going to the UK to 'kill an unborn child'?

I dont agree with abortion in principal, but i also dont tell others what to do.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 09:57PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I dont agree with abortion in principal, but i also dont tell others what to do.

Why is it okay for a woman to travel for abortion? Surely if you don't think women should be able to end pregnancies you'd oppose travel for that purpose.

eviltwin · 31-07-2013 09:59PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I dont agree with abortion in principal, but i also dont tell others what to do.

Your vote is in essence telling women what to do, its your public declaration that you think abortion is wrong and that you will do what you can to prevent women having access to it. And don't come out with that "sure they can go to the UK" line, its not that easy to go abroad at the moment, for some women its completely impossible. Your leaving them in an impossible position.

Galwayguy35 · 31-07-2013 09:59PM

lazygal wrote: »

Suppose your 'side' won. What do women in crisis pregnancy situations do? Why is it okay to kill a baby next door but not in Ireland?

Those are the British laws nothing to do with us.

As irish citizens we vote on our laws, if you want abortion lobby your TDs and lets have the vote.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 10:01PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Those are the British laws nothing to do with us.

As irish citizens we vote on our laws, if you want abortion lobby your TDs and lets have the vote.

But you still haven't said what women with crisis pregnancies who can't travel should do. What do you think they should do?

eviltwin · 31-07-2013 10:03PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Those are the British laws nothing to do with us.

As irish citizens we vote on our laws, if you want abortion lobby your TDs and lets have the vote.

Our laws do give women a right to travel though, do you think that should be removed?

Dave_The_Sheep · 31-07-2013 10:11PM

I'm genuinely curious as to what is meant by "crisis pregnancy". Some samples, which I'm wondering if they count or not:

- Is it one where the unborn child has no chance of life outside the womb, like the case mentioned previously on theJournal?
- Is it one where the mother's life is in danger, like the Halappanavar death?
- Is it one where the father/mother is suicidal because of the pregnancy (or otherwise)?
- Is it one where the pregnancy is a result of incest/rape?
- Is it one where the couple/mother is unable (due to maturity/financial/other reasons) to care for the child after it's birth?
- All/some of the above?

That looks awful listy, and I don't like that, but I do wonder what people mean when they say crisis pregnancy (and I'm not trying to trick or trap by asking)

Morag · 31-07-2013 10:21PM

Crisis pregnancy as per the crises pregnancy agency, is when a woman suddenly finds out she is expectantly pregnant and was not planning on being pregnant or starting a family at that time.

In some of these cases they decide to become a parent, in others they consider adoption and in some cases they decide to not continue with the pregnancy.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 10:21PM

To me a crisis pregnancy is one where a woman considers all options because she may not want to remain pregnant, for whatever reason.

Morag · 31-07-2013 10:22PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Those are the British laws nothing to do with us.

As irish citizens we vote on our laws, if you want abortion lobby your TDs and lets have the vote.

Some of use are working on it

eviltwin · 31-07-2013 10:23PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious as to what is meant by "crisis pregnancy". Some samples, which I'm wondering if they count or not:

- Is it one where the unborn child has no chance of life outside the womb, like the case mentioned previously on theJournal?
- Is it one where the mother's life is in danger, like the Halappanavar death?
- Is it one where the father/mother is suicidal because of the pregnancy (or otherwise)?
- Is it one where the pregnancy is a result of incest/rape?
- Is it one where the couple/mother is unable (due to maturity/financial/other reasons) to care for the child after it's birth?
- All/some of the above?

That looks awful listy, and I don't like that, but I do wonder what people mean when they say crisis pregnancy (and I'm not trying to trick or trap by asking)

I would say all of the above! Crisis tends to refer to women who have an unplanned pregnancy but I think even a planned pregnancy can turn to a crisis when problems develop.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 10:24PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I would say all of the above! Crisis tends to refer to women who have an unplanned pregnancy but I think even a planned pregnancy can turn to a crisis when problems develop.

Yes, like fatal foetal abnormality cases, or medical issues such as hypermesis or pre ecplamsia.

Dave_The_Sheep · 31-07-2013 10:28PM

Thanks for the replies. So a crisis pregnancy is one that is unplanned, or a planned one that turns bad (for whatever reason).

Personally, I thought it was any one of the first four that I mentioned in the list there. I'd see those as far more serious than "I'm not ready for this now" (simplifying things, perhaps). Especially in the cases where the life of the child/mother (and I hesitate before saying this, as it opens a whole other can of worms) or father are at risk.

[edited to add the last sentence]

iwantmydinner · 31-07-2013 10:33PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Thanks for the replis. So a crisis pregnancy is one that is unplanned, or a planned one that turns bad (for whatever reason).

Personally, I thought it was one of the first four that I mentioned in the list there. I'd see those as far more serious than "I'm not ready for this now" (simplifying things, perhaps).

Definitely simplifying things.

"I'm not ready" can sound like a very flippant reason.

A woman, or couple, may feel unable to continue an unplanned pregnancy for reasons which fall under the "I'm not ready" category, but which may be very serious indeed.

I'm going to repeat, however, that I firmly believe that anyone should be able to end a pregnancy they feel unable to continue with for whatever reason. Subjective degrees of 'seriousness' have no place in the process.

lazygal · 31-07-2013 10:35PM

I don't agree with a hierarchy of reasons for access to abortion. I don't care why someone wants an abortion, only that they can access it in a timely and safe manner.

Dave_The_Sheep · 31-07-2013 10:43PM

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Definitely simplifying things. "I'm not ready" can sound like a very flippant reason. A woman, or couple, may feel unable to continue an unplanned pregnancy for reasons which fall under the "I'm not ready" category, but which may be very serious indeed.

I completely agree. There are likely a lot of very serious reasons. The definition there though, for better or worse, also does include "I'm/we're not ready", and lots in between that and "very serious". I personally wouldn't accept that as a reason for an abortion.

Of course, as I've said before in that long post a few pages back, it's because I'd consider it ... to be denying life to a child. I don't know if we disagree on that, but I think we do disagree on the result of if that's true or not.

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I'm going to repeat, however, that I firmly believe that anyone should be able to end a pregnancy they feel unable to continue with for whatever reason. Subjective degrees of 'seriousness' have no place in the process.

Including the father?

I really don't mean to be flippant here, not my intention at all. It's a genuine question.

lazygal wrote:

I don't agree with a hierarchy of reasons for access to abortion. I don't care why someone wants an abortion, only that they can access it in a timely and safe manner.

I suppose I'd have to disagree there. For the reason above. Abortions should be allowed for some reasons, but not for all.

Anyways, thanks for the replies, and I'll leave it there. I don't think there's much merit in us going back and forth when there are basic differences in what we believe/feel. If anyone wants to talk about the father question above, then I'd be interested to read it, but likely won't reply.

eviltwin · 31-07-2013 10:46PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Including the father?

I really don't mean to be flippant here, not my intention at all. It's a genuine question.

.

Not sure I get what you mean here. Are you referring to the debate about allowing fathers to have a legal disconnection from the child ie not being liable for maintainance etc or are you talking about fathers being able to force women to have abortions?

iwantmydinner · 31-07-2013 10:51PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Including the father?

I really don't mean to be flippant here, not my intention at all. It's a genuine question.

The question makes me bristle; but I'll take it on face value and accept that you're not being adversarial here.

Simple biology means that the woman makes the ultimate decision. She is the one who carries the child. It's that simple.

I mean, you can't realistically contemplate a situation where the father gets to force a pregnant woman to end a pregnancy, or force her to continue with one she feels she cannot carry to term?

Dave_The_Sheep · 31-07-2013 10:51PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Not sure I get what you mean here. Are you referring to the debate about allowing fathers to have a legal disconnection from the child ie not being liable for maintainance etc or are you talking about fathers being able to force women to have abortions?

Both, I suppose. Feel free to elaborate on how you believe (if it does) one affects the other.

eviltwin · 31-07-2013 10:54PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Both, I suppose. Feel free to elaborate on how you believe (if it does) one affects the other.

Well the legal disconnet issue has been done already on another thread and its not really relevant to abortion because in that case the child will be born.

Forcing women to abort....that just scares the sh*t out of me tbh, I can't think of any situation where it could ever be acceptable to force a woman to abort a baby against her will. And I don't think it will ever come to that because thankfully thats something that both sides of the debate would have issue with.

Dave_The_Sheep · 31-07-2013 11:02PM

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I mean, you can't realistically contemplate a situation where the father gets to force a pregnant woman to end a pregnancy, or force her to continue with one she feels she cannot carry to term?

eviltwin wrote:

Forcing women to abort....that just scares the sh*t out of me tbh, I can't think of any situation where it could ever be acceptable to force a woman to abort a baby against her will. And I don't think it will ever come to that because thankfully thats something that both sides of the debate would have issue with.

No, I can't every conceive or agree with forcing a woman to undergo an abortion.

For one, it would completely go against what I said that I believed in above/before as regards the right of life of an unborn child.

I'll go check out the other thread as regards legal disconnection. To be honest, while I appreciate that as you said, it's simple biology, it's ultimately the woman who bears the child, it just annoys me the complete imbalance in rights/responsibilities that a (non-running-away-from-the-situation) father, or prospective father has. I suppose that's a whole other debate. Night.

Frito · 31-07-2013 11:03PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Well the legal disconnet issue has been done already on another thread and its not really relevant to abortion because in that case the child will be born.

Agreed. The Corinthian pointed out to me a few weeks ago the inequality in the current adoption legislation whereby a mother can put her child up for adoption without the express consent of the father, although reasonable attempt must be made to gain this.

This is a far better reference to argue for a man's 'legal' abortion than restricting a woman's physical abortion, particularly given the reference to a woman's 'right to privacy' in adoption legislation.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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