Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Judgement Day · 14-07-2013 7:56am

Will the Athenry-Claremorris railway ever reopen as a Greenway?

corktina · 14-07-2013 9:52am

Athenry to Tuam: short section, some merit as a railway, won't be more successful than the re-opened section though

Tuam to Claremorris: again a short section, some merit in retaining as a diversionary/stock transfer route and as a strategic reserve

Claremorris northward: lightly laid meandering line straggling miles through thinly populated area. Not a hope in the world of ever re-opening.

Conclusion: When and if we have any money (bearing in mind we never actually had any money to re-open the bit we did...) perhaps the first should be done, the second entails doing nothing except protecting the route and the third involves getting out the demolition train.

InchicoreDude · 15-07-2013 9:38pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Coal trains ran along it between Foynes and the Asahi plant in Mayo during the 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96uwolh_bRQ

Thank you! I knew I remembered a train on it!

I walked along a section of it recently (It is one way I can get from one of our fields to another field). Would be nice to see something done with it rather than just having it idle. If not a railway, then a greenway cycle thing.

eastwest · 15-07-2013 10:09pm

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Thank you! I knew I remembered a train on it!

I walked along a section of it recently (It is one way I can get from one of our fields to another field). Would be nice to see something done with it rather than just having it idle. If not a railway, then a greenway cycle thing.

Or why not let lumps if it get taken over by default and neglect? Then, when a big lump of Dublin money is sent down to build a railway, there'll be a shed-load left over for compensating the 'owners'. ;-). ,

end of the road · 16-07-2013 5:11pm

eastwest wrote: »

Or why not let lumps if it get taken over by default and neglect? Then, when a big lump of Dublin money is sent down to build a railway, there'll be a shed-load left over for compensating the 'owners'. ;-). ,

doesn't have to happen like that, a little piece of legislation could sort that out, could go like this.
we the irish government seek to either, re-open all closed railways within the state, or re-use all lands once occupied by a railway for other public uses, we reserve the right to, with out compensation where applicable, remove any obstruction on lands which a railway has occupied, where land has been sold which was once occupied by a railway, such deal shall be null and void.
this will do 2 things, remove the squatters from lands which had a railway that won't be re-opened, and if theirs another re-opening (unlikely) should their be a situation that the council has given planning permission for something to be built that it can be removed with out compensation (unless its a house for which maybe a rebuild somewhere else would be better then money as compensation)

hardCopy · 16-07-2013 5:25pm

end of the road wrote: »

doesn't have to happen like that, a little piece of legislation could sort that out, could go like this.
we the irish government seek to either, re-open all closed railways within the state, or re-use all lands once occupied by a railway for other public uses, we reserve the right to, with out compensation where applicable, remove any obstruction on lands which a railway has occupied, where land has been sold which was once occupied by a railway, such deal shall be null and void.
this will do 2 things, remove the squatters from lands which had a railway that won't be re-opened, and if theirs another re-opening (unlikely) should their be a situation that the council has given planning permission for something to be built that it can be removed with out compensation (unless its a house for which maybe a rebuild somewhere else would be better then money as compensation)

Wouldn't that be retro-active though. If the new occupier already has years of squatter's rights (adverse possession?) over the land?

These people should never have been allowed take possession of the land and I'd have little sympathy for them but I don't think such a law would be simple to implement.

eastwest · 16-07-2013 7:59pm

hardCopy wrote: »

Wouldn't that be retro-active though. If the new occupier already has years of squatter's rights (adverse possession?) over the land?

These people should never have been allowed take possession of the land and I'd have little sympathy for them but I don't think such a law would be simple to implement.

It also doesn't take into account that politicians don't like to see laws enforced in situations like this. A land-grabber who approaches a TD for help will always get a hearing, and a successful intervention by the TD will guarantee a whole family-load of votes forever.

end of the road · 16-07-2013 8:15pm

hardCopy wrote: »

Wouldn't that be retro-active though. If the new occupier already has years of squatter's rights (adverse possession?) over the land?
the adverse possession/squatters rights laws could be re-written to exclude railway land, but yes it would be a tricky law to implament, i think it would be worth it though and would make any greenway project or even in the future another re-opening if circumstances allow it much much easier, but as another poster said some td looking for votes from somebody and their family will make sure this doesn't happen

eastwest · 17-07-2013 10:00am

westtip wrote: »

Yes this is the crux of the matter, I go back to my O'level history and study of the industrial revolution the flow chart went something like this

Horse and Carts > Canal revolution> Railway revolution > Henry Ford.

Of course the Railways haven't been replaced by Road. Moving high volumes of commuters, or very fast intercity/interurban movement from large population centres to other large population centres quickly is critical rail infrastructure. In Ireland its all about good rail services to Dublin. Rural rail lines through dispersed population centres or even to small towns in the country over relatively short distances are not the way to go. The rural branch lines were closed for a reason, and the reason remains valid in not re-opening - the great experiment of re-opening the rural branch line of Ennis/Athenry has proven this. It happened. It didn't work. Lets move on and do something different.

'Move on' are the key words. Unfortunately where local politicians have built careers on promises of big infrastructure for small places, they find it impossible to move on or to admit their mistake. They adopt the classic 'when in a hole, keep digging' approach.
That's why I have always stated that the best solution from a political standpoint is to keep promising a railway and a greenway, while delivering neither.

corktina · 17-07-2013 2:40pm

a good programme on the BBC last night about Victoria Coach Station...700+ arrivals and the same with departures PER DAY. There was a woman with 2 children had travelled up from Devon (thats a long way...) for £20 return.

I hope the railway bosses here were watching

end of the road · 17-07-2013 4:25pm

westtip wrote: »

The rural branch lines were closed for a reason

along with some lines that shouldn't have been but were done to either teach the people along them a lesson or for other political reasons, or even to sell off the land to ones little friends, if their really had been no future for limerick nenagh ballybroaphy then its passenger service would have been stopped back in the 60s and 70s, however it was left to be ran down to oblivian, so i stand by what i said, if i was in his situation then yes i would be defending the line, if we had someone like him down here in wexford then maybe we wouldn't have seen rosslare waterford close, but who knows, i certainly would have been campaigning to not re-open ennis athenry specially at the expence of other lines

westtip · 25-07-2013 7:15am

flynnlives wrote: »

Oranmore train station opens next week, single journey into galway is 5.10 euro!

the bus is 5.60euro return! and the bus stop is actually in oranmore!

the train station is about a mile outside oranmore and there are no footpaths on the busy road to it!
An absolutle joke!

but dont worry Varadkar will be out for the photo op!

I doubt LV will turn up for this one, his views on the WRC are well known, and he is hardly responsible for the farce, definitely an inheritance of the previous administration. However if he does turn up it will be interesting to see if he makes any comments about reports that he has no intention of extending the WRC north of Athenry, perhaps he should come west and make the Oranmore declaration: "No more"

Especially now it has been reported what he wrote in an in email to the sligo - mayo greenway campaign reported today on page 14 of the Sligo Weekender (.pdf will be posted when available).

The story came out of a press release sent to regional papers last weekend which is attached but the full content of the email signed by Leo Varadkar is below, the release of this email was held back for a while before a meeting the SMG campaign had with Alan Kelly and before th SMG campaign ascertained that the number of submissions asking for a greenway on the mayo county plan had been released - the council received 281 submissions

From: MINISTER'S OFFICE [mailto:minister@dttas.ie]
Sent: 21 June 2013 13:13
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Our Ref MLVC 13/1621

Our Ref MLVC 13/1621

21st June 2013

Dear Mr Quinn,

I refer to your recent correspondence requesting a meeting.

Currently, the Government has no plans to extend the western rail corridor nor any other heavy rail line in the state. We do not have the funds. Our priority is to keep the existing lines open. I have not met with West on Track for almost two years.

With regard to greenways, my Department and its agencies are very supportive of greenways. However, there are many more proposals for greenways than we can possibly facilitate, assist or support financially. For that reason, we only consider them where the local authority and the leader company etc. are on board already.

The granting of access to the alignment is a property matter for Irish Rail / CIE and I have no function in this regard.

For these reasons, I do not believe a meeting would serve any purpose.

Yours sincerely

____________
Leo Varadkar
Minister for Transport, Tourism & Sport

westtip · 25-07-2013 9:54am

Here is the press release we put out last weekendAttachment not found.

what_traffic · 25-07-2013 10:23am

westtip wrote: »

I doubt LV will turn up for this one, his views on the WRC are well known, and he is hardly responsible for the farce, definitely an inheritance of the previous administration. However if he does turn up it will be interesting to see if he makes any comments about reports that he has no intention of extending the WRC north of Athenry, perhaps he should come west and make the Oranmore declaration: "No more"

He is turning up to officially too open the station on Monday. Believe it will be operational from this Sunday.
See the following article :
http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/941-oranmore-s-new-train-station-will-open-next-monday

what_traffic · 25-07-2013 10:30am

flynnlives wrote: »

the train station is about a mile outside oranmore and there are no footpaths on the busy road to it!
An absolutle joke!

but dont worry Varadkar will be out for the photo op!

Agree - it should be called Garraun Station rather than Oranmore. It is a shame it is not closer to the village of Oranmore. Cycling rather than walking would seem the easier option. City Council do have plans to expand the city east though. A new town called Ardaun maybe built around the station in the future.
Have not been on the coast road in a while - why is the road busy when Oranmore have there own Dual carraigeway since the M6 motorway(dual carraigeway) was built? Should only have local traffic on it.
Roughly how much in meter's "Hard Shoulder" walking will be required to get to the new Station Road?

westtip · 25-07-2013 11:00am

what_traffic wrote: »

He is turning up to officially open the station on Monday. Believe it will be operational from this Sunday.
See the following article :
http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/941-oranmore-s-new-train-station-will-open-next-monday

Good for Leo coming out west, perhaps he can be asked for a soundbite on what he has said about the rest of the WRC - he sure as hell isn't turning up to tell anyone about extensions north of Athenry!

serfboard · 25-07-2013 12:07pm

flynnlives wrote: »

Oranmore train station opens next week

'Twill be interesting to see how this does. A 300 space car park is a big advantage, though as this will be operated by the County Council, I doubt it will be free. Add in the cost of the journey (8.60 return, cheaper obviously if you're using commuter tickets) and it could make it dear enough.

However, it's got good timetabling around peak hours (arriving 8:10, 8:35 and 9:25, leaving at 17:20, 17:50, 18:10 and 18:40) and it's quick (most journeys 10 minutes or less) so it will be handy if you're working in town.

Ballybrit/Parkmore/Mervue (i.e. major industrial areas) commuters will continue to drive, take the bus or cycle.

what_traffic · 25-07-2013 12:55pm

serfboard wrote: »

'Twill be interesting to see how this does. A 300 space car park is a big advantage, though as this will be operated by the County Council, I doubt it will be free. Add in the cost of the journey (8.60 return, cheaper obviously if you're using commuter tickets) and it could make it dear enough.

This is interesting regarding the parking. Why the County Council? Athenry, Craughwell, Ardrahan and Gort are run by NCPS. (http://www.ncps.ie/)

rainbowdash · 25-07-2013 12:56pm

westtip wrote: »

Here is the press release we put out last weekendAttachment not found.

Not sure why you are getting excited about the email, maybe you should have read it before you made your press release.

The Minister says:

"Currently, the Government has no plans to extend the western rail corridor nor any other heavy rail line in the state. We do not have the funds."

That gives no indication of what may or may not be happening with the railway in 1, 2, 5 or 10 years, either on the WRC or anywhere. No mention of abandoning, or plans to abandon a railway, anywhere in the state.

Then he says (about Greenways)

"we only consider them where the local authority and the leader company etc. are on board already."

In other words, go away and stop annoying us and leave it to the correct people.

Then he says:

"The granting of access to the alignment is a property matter for Irish Rail / CIE and I have no function in this regard."

Its just a standard a PFO letter, written by a government spin doctor to fob you off so it says very little when you read through it and gets nobody in trouble.

westtip · 25-07-2013 1:00pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

Not sure why you are getting excited about the email, maybe you should have read it before you made your press release.

The Minister says:

"Currently, the Government has no plans to extend the western rail corridor nor any other heavy rail line in the state. We do not have the funds."

That gives no indication of what may or may not be happening with the railway in 1, 2, 5 or 10 years, either on the WRC or anywhere. No mention of abandoning, or plans to abandon a railway, anywhere in the state.

Then he says (about Greenways)

"we only consider them where the local authority and the leader company etc. are on board already."

In other words, go away and stop annoying us and leave it to the correct people.

Then he says:

"The granting of access to the alignment is a property matter for Irish Rail / CIE and I have no function in this regard."

Its just a standard a PFO letter, written by a government spin doctor to fob you off so it says very little when you read through it and gets nobody in trouble.

Really, is that why he arranged for us to see Alan Kelly, who said in a meeting with us the WRC will not happen in 10/15 years (in political speak - not ever, he said we could quote him 10 years which is long enough to say we are not doing it), Yes there is an element of hedging in the email language - sure we come to expect that , but there is absolutely no suggestion the WRC is ever coming back on anyones agenda. Do I take encouragement from what varadkar says yes and the same about what Kelly said in a follow up meeting. I can assure you the WRC extension is a dead duck, it is quite simply not going to happen, Varadkars "currently" is a most definitely - not on my watch comment. With regard to greenways - Kelly cannot comprehend why Mayo and Sligo coco are not fighting for a greenway on the WRC when they (the councils) no full well the railway is not going to happen and have been told as much time and time again. I am not as dismissive as you are but yes can see they are still trying to be all things to all men and long finger everything, railway and greenway and keep both parties on a promise but deliver nothing

westtip · 25-07-2013 1:25pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

The problem with online booking is that with Irish Rails system you must get a seat allocated with every booking, this is too difficult for them when dealing with 2 or 3 different types of train especially when they may not know what train is going to be on each service as a train fault can disrupt such systems very easily.

If they had a ticket only booking system which was free to book it might help but they have not tried this up to now so we must assume it is not possible.

But surely its not difficult to allocate a coach for every passenger, which must be possible on this route:D

rainbowdash · 25-07-2013 1:32pm

westtip wrote: »

Really, is that why he arranged for us to see Alan Kelly, who said in a meeting with us the WRC will not happen in 10/15 years (in political speak - not ever), Yes there is an element of hedging in it, but there is absolutely no suggestion the WRC is ever coming back on anyones agenda. Do I take encouragement from what varadkar says yes and the same about what Kelly. I can assure you the WRC is a dead duck as a railway, it is quite simply not going to happen, Varadkars "currently" is a most definitely - not on my watch comment. With regard to greenways - Kelly cannot comprehend why Mayo and Sligo coco are not fighting for a greenway on the WRC when they (the councils) no full well the railway is not going to happen and have been told as much time and time again.

So where is this Alan Kelly meeting minuted where all these things he said on our behalf are documented?

A politician telling you what you want to hear, nothing new there!

westtip · 25-07-2013 2:11pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

So where is this Alan Kelly meeting minuted where all these things he said on our behalf are documented?

A politician telling you what you want to hear, nothing new there!

I suggest you drop a line to his PPS, the meeting took place on July 2nd at 2.30 pm in the Ministers office, call and ask his office did it take place. One of his staff took minutes, so drop a line to his office and ask them to double check his diary I am sure you can get a FOI on it all if you want. Actually he didn't say exactly what we wanted - he said he would take certain actions, which I am not going to disclose here, and he told us we have to get the councils on board, but he was pretty adamant the WRC is not going to get a look in whilst this government in on the watch, his phase not get looked at for at least ten years pretty much means - we are certainly not going to entertain it. One thing I will say - he was very favourable to the idea of what Sustrans have done in the UK in cases like this - in which the rail line route remains in ownership of the railway company but an easement right of way for a greenway protects the route in public ownership for ever. He does not want to see a repeat of North Kerry and he could see why a greenway would protect the route in the case of both Claremorris collooney and south of Claremorris, for him anyway it all seemed very logical.

rainbowdash · 25-07-2013 4:21pm

westtip wrote: »

I suggest you drop a line to his PPS, the meeting took place on July 2nd at 2.30 pm in the Ministers office, call and ask his office did it take place. One of his staff took minutes, so drop a line to his office and ask them to double check his diary I am sure you can get a FOI on it all if you want. Actually he didn't say exactly what we wanted - he said he would take certain actions, which I am not going to disclose here, and he told us we have to get the councils on board, but he was pretty adamant the WRC is not going to get a look in whilst this government in on the watch, his phase not get looked at for at least ten years pretty much means - we are certainly not going to entertain it. One thing I will say - he was very favourable to the idea of what Sustrans have done in the UK in cases like this - in which the rail line route remains in ownership of the railway company but an easement right of way for a greenway protects the route in public ownership for ever. He does not want to see a repeat of North Kerry and he could see why a greenway would protect the route in the case of both Claremorris collooney and south of Claremorris, for him anyway it all seemed very logical.

Of course the WRC will never open again, definitely not north of Claremorris - ever.

Of course its logical to create a greenway to preserve disused railway lines.

But tired and hungry tourists will not be flocking to this Mayo greenway either.

Midleton - Youghal and Limerick - Foynes would be better prospects in this regard in my opinion.

TheBandicoot · 25-07-2013 4:24pm

Is "tired and hungry tourists" the next "chicken dinners"?

TINA1984 · 25-07-2013 5:44pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

Of course the WRC will never open again, definitely not north of Claremorris - ever.

Nor south of Claremorris, wouldn't you agree?

Judgement Day · 25-07-2013 5:46pm

TINA1984 wrote: »

Nor south of Claremorris, wouldn't you agree?

Why?

flynnlives · 25-07-2013 5:57pm

westtip wrote: »

But surely its not difficult to allocate a coach for every passenger, which must be possible on this route:D

never fear! galway co.co are actually doing this with the mind boggling park and ride service from the airport into eyre square.

I think so far its cost over 100k for two months and no one uses it. A bus leaves every 30 minutes.

Ive seen the bus come outta the airport with no one on it at least 6 times now. And the recent figures bare this out.

Only in Ireland could you go to an Airport only to get on a bus!

rainbowdash · 25-07-2013 9:09pm

TINA1984 wrote: »

Nor south of Claremorris, wouldn't you agree?

Not really, its certainly unlikely, but if ever oil prices went up enough and central government strategies changed, then there may be demand for more rail services, both passenger and freight.

And if that scenario came to pass then Claremorris - Athenry connects Waterford, Cork and Limerick nicely with Westport, Castlebar and Ballina.

As I said its unlikely, and certainly not in the next 10 years, but long term I would retain the infrastructure. We don't want a repeat of having to claim back sections of track as has happened elsewhere.

corktina · 25-07-2013 9:50pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

Not really, its certainly unlikely, but if ever oil prices went up enough and central government strategies changed, then there may be demand for more rail services, both passenger and freight.

And if that scenario came to pass then Claremorris - Athenry connects Waterford, Cork and Limerick nicely with Westport, Castlebar and Ballina.

As I said its unlikely, and certainly not in the next 10 years, but long term I would retain the infrastructure. We don't want a repeat of having to claim back sections of track as has happened elsewhere.

Oil Smoil...you never heard of electric cars?

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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