Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

bambergbike

eastwest wrote: »

Germany, France, the UK etc have a lot of cycle trails on disused railways, and these are popular because they are not on roads.

I haven't cycled much in France or the UK. I live in rural Germany. The local cycling network makes very extensive use of country roads and has a few VERY heavily-used river and canal greenways that make up a huge proportion of the local economy. It also features a few trails on disused railway embankments - I use those when I want to cover distance efficiently without meeting any tourists!!! The river routes bring in vast numbers of tourists, the rail routes are insignificant.

corktina wrote: »

the idea of Greenways is to have a safe traffic-free route. "Fairly quiet country roads" do not acheive this.

We need no-traffic routes AND low-traffic routes. No-traffic routes that are safe enough for a two-year old to use, low-traffic routes for cyclists who are confident riding on the roads, but don't want to spend their holidays ploughing through traffic. And we can have both: greenways are worth the investment, and low-traffic routes are very cheap. There is no either/or. We can market "greenway" cycling holidays along the Shannon or the Great Western Greenway or around Lough Corrib AND we can market cycling holidays for the more adventurous type of cyclist who wants to test himself or herself on country roads between the Mamore Gap and the Connor Pass (or simply cruise along them on an e-bike).

I'm not disputing that we need a (few?) thousand kilometres of traffic-free greenways. Maybe we even need to put one of them on the WRC, although I can think of more promising places to start (the Shannon, the Corrib, extensions to the existing greenways). But we also need a national cycling network which is over ten thousand kilometres long. Tourists should be able to check into accomodation anywhere in the country and pick up a local cycling map with 400 kilometres of properly way-marked, themed, marketable, safe, interesting cycling routes that will keep them engaged for a week.

We cannot cater for that demand solely by building greenways. We cannot afford ten thousand kilometres of greenways. And even if we could, the result would still not be a network serving all cyclists, or even all tourist cyclists. A 10 000 km tourist cycling network incorporating an initial 1000 km of greenways and another 9000 km of green roads would make more sense.

When I cycle to my sister's house (also in rural Germany) at the weekend, I will avoid the greenways along the Main and Wern rivers. On a summer weekend, I would have to slow down every hundred yards, ring my bell and cautiously overtake typical greenway users: tourist cyclists with heavy baggage cycling three abreast, dog walkers, nordic walkers, small children learning to cycle, people out for a stroll pushing granny's wheelchair, horse riders and so on. It gets tedious after the first ten miles, and I have further than that to go, so I will cycle on quiet country roads instead, and I will be grateful for the cyclist signage that makes it possible for me to find them without a map.

corktina

ha, ring your bell here and you'd probably end up IN the river!

eastwest

"Naomh wrote:

From reading the other posts here it seems to me that the motivation for the Sligo Mayo greenway campaigners is to stop the Western Rail Corridor at all costs, and that the Greenway idea is a useful stick to beat West on Track and local councillors with.

I don't think that's quite true. I'm in favour of a greenway on the route although you couldn't describe me as a campaigner, so I read what everybody has to say about it, both here and elsewhere. The consistent thread running through much of the pro-greenway campaigning seems to be pro-greenway but not at the expense of rail. I have seen pleas to put a greenway on the track in order to protect the route from land-grabbers, and this makes a lot of sense to me. Another common thread is the eventual (assuming that a railway is ever built) use of a parallel greenway.
Hardly anti-rail, is it?

corktina

consistently it has been said on here and elsewhere with photo back-up from other countries,....a rail line and a greenway can exist happily side by side.

Grandeeod

rainbowdash wrote: »

Maybe you should ring Joe Duffy, infiltration of county councils by morally bankrupt organisations ruined this country before and can't be allowed happen again. If you have very clear evidence of this then perhaps its time to go national?

I don't like the sarcasm and the evidence is clear to see. It's been demonstrated here (for example) for years.

Naomh Eanna

Grandeeod wrote: »

I don't like the sarcasm and the evidence is clear to see. It's been demonstrated here (for example) for years.

That Hitler video you described as "light hearted" was a bit nasty and sarcastic to be honest.

Grandeeod

Naomh Eanna wrote: »

Some great and clear thinking in that last post. From reading the other posts here it seems to me that the motivation for the Sligo Mayo greenway campaigners is to stop the Western Rail Corridor at all costs, and that the Greenway idea is a useful stick to beat West on Track and local councillors with.

Brendan Quinns opposition to the WRC goes back to at least 2006 when he wrote to The Irish Times to complain about the cost of the WRC. Back then he was advocating spending the money on motorways. Along the way we have seen cancer care in the west, gas pipelines, fibre optic links and now a greenway for the old railway track. Originally the greenway was to be on the Collooney-Claremorris section but now he wants the whole section right down to Athenry to be a greenway. One can only speculate that his motivation is partly driven by hatred of West on Track as can be seen by the promotion of the Adolf Hitler downfall parody and the constant sniping at West on Track and local councillors here.

Safe cycle routes using a sensible mixture of roads and former railway and canal routes is to my mind the right and cost effective thing to do. I do not think for one minute that there are hoards of "tired hungry tourists" aching for a greenway in North Mayo, but a safe network of cycle friendly roads would be a great start for ourselves here.

If the WRC is to succeed we need to follow the example of Midleton where targeted development encouraged a critical mass where a railway became feasible. If Mayo is serious about developing the WRC then they need to have a strategy where development is targeted around the towns lying on the WRC so a critical mass is in place to justify rail services.

The paranoia is astounding! The WRC doesn't need a Greenway campaign to kill it off and there are many other far superior sticks to beat WOT/local councillors with, based on hard economic fact.

Brendan Quinn isn't the first to be publically critical of the WRC. What about Thomas Sheridan and Derek Wheeler of Platform 11 in 2004. If I'm not mistaken they were probably the first to publically express opposition and all based on economic reasons. They too were accused of hatred of WOT, sabotage of the West of Ireland and being Dublin 4 based. The vitriol that poured out from WRC supporters was shameful. Your use of the word hatred demonstrates to me that you believe anyone who disagrees with WOT etc. are consumed by hatred and ill will against them. That is a wild speculation and in some situations was a wild accusation. Furthermore WOT are fair game for sniping at along with local councillors. However your definition of sniping is someone else's definition of disagreeing.

As for the Greenway, there may or may not be thousands of tired and hungry cyclists aching for a greenway, but there sure as hell aren't thousands of people aching for a rail service. WOT refuse to accept defeat and are now trying to move the goalposts by shifting the blame for failure onto someone else. But they are fully responsible along with politicians for promoting the first great fail rail project in 21st century Ireland. The recent NTA report is hysterical when one considers the ideas put forward to improve ridership figures on the operational section of the WRC. It is blatantly obvious that WOT played a role in instigating it at a cost to the tax payer. Their contribution to it was desperate and devoid of realistic ideas to increase the figures because there is nothing that can be done.

If the WRC is to succeed we need to follow the example of Midleton where targeted development encouraged a critical mass where a railway became feasible. If Mayo is serious about developing the WRC then they need to have a strategy where development is targeted around the towns lying on the WRC so a critical mass is in place to justify rail services

:rolleyes: This is absolute desperation to try and prove your argument. First of all, that should have been the approach 30 years ago. It should also have come into the equation when WOT arrived on the scene. It should have been the answer WOT got from the Government in 2003 post the SRR. None of this happened. The first stage was sanctioned in hope and appeasement rather than any form of economic appraisal. But now you want targeted development to build critical mass.:rolleyes: More goalpost moving.

Now for the best bit. Even if we have tonnes of cash and critical mass all over Mayo and Sligo, that meandering rail line from at least Tuam northwards would not be up to the job because it was poorly built in the first place and would never ever compete with the road option. Don't you get this? Have you seen the line? Don't you understand that the recent NTA report highlighted what many of us already know? The initial build quality of the WRC will never allow an upgrade that permits speeds high enough to offer competitive journey times. We invested 100 odd million in reopening a turkey. The rest of the route is even worse. This is all verifiable fact and yet WOT and their supporters continue to do a three monkeys act.

Grandeeod

Naomh Eanna wrote: »

That Hitler video you described as "light hearted" was a bit nasty and sarcastic to be honest.

What planet are you on? Nasty? There you go again using language in an effort to damage someones credibility and standing. There is nothing nasty about that video. Its funny to some and not funny to others. It is absolutely light hearted and directs no malice or offense to any particular named individual.

eastwest

Grandeeod wrote: »

The paranoia is astounding! The WRC doesn't need a Greenway campaign to kill it off and there are many other far superior sticks to beat WOT/local councillors with, based on hard economic fact.

Brendan Quinn isn't the first to be publically critical of the WRC. What about Thomas Sheridan and Derek Wheeler of Platform 11 in 2004. If I'm not mistaken they were probably the first to publically express opposition and all based on economic reasons. They too were accused of hatred of WOT, sabotage of the West of Ireland and being Dublin 4 based. The vitriol that poured out from WRC supporters was shameful. Your use of the word hatred demonstrates to me that you believe anyone who disagrees with WOT etc. are consumed by hatred and ill will against them. That is a wild speculation and in some situations was a wild accusation. Furthermore WOT are fair game for sniping at along with local councillors. However your definition of sniping is someone else's definition of disagreeing.

As for the Greenway, there may or may not be thousands of tired and hungry cyclists aching for a greenway, but there sure as hell aren't thousands of people aching for a rail service. WOT refuse to accept defeat and are now trying to move the goalposts by shifting the blame for failure onto someone else. But they are fully responsible along with politicians for promoting the first great fail rail project in 21st century Ireland. The recent NTA report is hysterical when one considers the ideas put forward to improve ridership figures on the operational section of the WRC. It is blatantly obvious that WOT played a role in instigating it at a cost to the tax payer. Their contribution to it was desperate and devoid of realistic ideas to increase the figures because there is nothing that can be done.



:rolleyes: This is absolute desperation to try and prove your argument. First of all, that should have been the approach 30 years ago. It should also have come into the equation when WOT arrived on the scene. It should have been the answer WOT got from the Government in 2003 post the SRR. None of this happened. The first stage was sanctioned in hope and appeasement rather than any form of economic appraisal. But now you want targeted development to build critical mass.:rolleyes: More goalpost moving.

Now for the best bit. Even if we have tonnes of cash and critical mass all over Mayo and Sligo, that meandering rail line from at least Tuam northwards would not be up to the job because it was poorly built in the first place and would never ever compete with the road option. Don't you get this? Have you seen the line? Don't you understand that the recent NTA report highlighted what many of us already know? The initial build quality of the WRC will never allow an upgrade that permits speeds high enough to offer competitive journey times. We invested 100 odd million in reopening a turkey. The rest of the route is even worse. This is all verifiable fact and yet WOT and their supporters continue to do a three monkeys act.

Whereas the core people in WOT probably believe their own propaganda about a railway on this route, the councillors on the ICRC probably don't, but think that this is where the votes are. I find it hard to ascribe any other motive to councillors who not only stand idly by while the route is being whittled away, but also support planning applications for houses where driveways block the line.
The ideal scenario for politicians is that neither option is delivered. In that way they can keep the votes of the rail supporters, tell the greenway supporters that theirs is a great idea that just needs work, and keep the dozens of squatters happy as well.
Politics, Irish style!

Markcheese

corktina wrote: »

consistently it has been said on here and elsewhere with photo back-up from other countries,....a rail line and a greenway can exist happily side by side.

Could exist , cos whatever chance the greenway has, the railway has none( for the foreseeable future) ...

Grandeeod

eastwest wrote: »

The ideal scenario for politicians is that neither option is delivered. In that way they can keep the votes of the rail supporters, tell the greenway supporters that theirs is a great idea that just needs work, and keep the dozens of squatters happy as well.
Politics, Irish style!

QED.

eastwest

eastwest wrote:

Anyone who still thinks that the rest of the WRC will be opened should tell us (a) where the money will come from, and (b) where the passenger numbers to sustain it will come from.

I'm still waiting for an answer to these two simple questions.

Maybe an increase in property taxes nationally to pay the capital costs, and a couple of percentage points in income tax to subsidise the running of it?

Or maybe close down the Ennis Athenry section and use the money saved to run the bit north of Athenry?

This isn't about the west being put upon by the rest of the country; this is about the MOFNEY, the money!

I know, there's no F in money. Exactly.

rainbowdash

eastwest wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an answer to these two simple questions.

Maybe an increase in property taxes nationally to pay the capital costs, and a couple of percentage points in income tax to subsidise the running of it?

Or maybe close down the Ennis Athenry section and use the money saved to run the bit north of Athenry?

This isn't about the west being put upon by the rest of the country; this is about the MOFNEY, the money!

I know, there's no F in money. Exactly.

If you bother reading the posts back along most of us are in agreement that the railway will never be rebuilt, certainly not north of Claremorris. There is no money to built it and if built the passengers will not come.

However I think the greenway will not generate any meaningful numbers of tired and hungry tourists either, and bashing WOT under the pretence that they are blocking a major tourism project is more like a vendetta by a few individuals against WOT by writing letters to papers etc. than anything else.

If the greenway was such a no brainer then are the hotels, pubs, campsites and guesthouses along the route willing to stump up the cash knowing thousands of tired and hungry tourists will arrive.

I don't think so.

eastwest

rainbowdash wrote: »

If you bother reading the posts back along most of us are in agreement that the railway will never be rebuilt, certainly not north of Claremorris. There is no money to built it and if built the passengers will not come.

However I think the greenway will not generate any meaningful numbers of tired and hungry tourists either, and bashing WOT under the pretence that they are blocking a major tourism project is more like a vendetta by a few individuals against WOT by writing letters to papers etc. than anything else.

If the greenway was such a no brainer then are the hotels, pubs, campsites and guesthouses along the route willing to stump up the cash knowing thousands of tired and hungry tourists will arrive.

I don't think so.

It's the job if government to provide infrastructure; it's not up to the hotels and other businesses.

WOT and their 'political wing' aka the ICRC are blocking the development of a greenway on the route. A greenway can only be funded if projects are initiated by the councils, but, as can be seen from the Roscommon debacle, the ICRC councils are blocking even having the issue discussed.

I still don't understand by the way what role Roscommon has in a railway that isn't in Roscommon.

Grandeeod

rainbowdash wrote: »

If you bother reading the posts back along most of us are in agreement that the railway will never be rebuilt, certainly not north of Claremorris. There is no money to built it and if built the passengers will not come.

However I think the greenway will not generate any meaningful numbers of tired and hungry tourists either, and bashing WOT under the pretence that they are blocking a major tourism project is more like a vendetta by a few individuals against WOT by writing letters to papers etc. than anything else.

If the greenway was such a no brainer then are the hotels, pubs, campsites and guesthouses along the route willing to stump up the cash knowing thousands of tired and hungry tourists will arrive.

I don't think so.

I highlight this bit for a reason.

and bashing WOT under the pretence that they are blocking a major tourism project is more like a vendetta by a few individuals against WOT by writing letters to papers etc. than anything else.

That's a careful use of words there. WOT are blocking the alternative use of a rail corridor. There's no pretence in that. It's fact. Leave out the dramatics of it being a major tourism project and bring it back to basics. Stop using phrases that muddy the water. You are following the same path here as another poster I addressed by introducing words like vendetta. You are all convinced that it's a big conspiracy. If you believe the line is a dead duck and the Greenway is a non runner, whats your problem? Are you merely here to defend WOT? Explain it to me. What would you like to see happen?

Grandeeod

eastwest wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an answer to these two simple questions.

Maybe an increase in property taxes nationally to pay the capital costs, and a couple of percentage points in income tax to subsidise the running of it?

Or maybe close down the Ennis Athenry section and use the money saved to run the bit north of Athenry?

This isn't about the west being put upon by the rest of the country; this is about the MOFNEY, the money!

I know, there's no F in money. Exactly.

You will not get an answer to that question and even if we had the money, it would be a waste.

eastwest

Grandeeod wrote: »

I highlight this bit for a reason.



That's a careful use of words there. WOT are blocking the alternative use of a rail corridor. There's no pretence in that. It's fact. Leave out the dramatics of it being a major tourism project and bring it back to basics. Stop using phrases that muddy the water. You are following the same path here as another poster I addressed by introducing words like vendetta. You are all convinced that it's a big conspiracy. If you believe the line is a dead duck and the Greenway is a non runner, whats your problem? Are you merely here to defend WOT? Explain it to me. What would you like to see happen?

There is a third option that shouldn't be forgotten -- the taking over of publicly owned property by a number of individuals
If somebody contends that the line won't be built, and that the greenway shouldn't be built, then it is possible that they simply support the land grab option.

westtip

Well fascinating stuff lads been away for a while so decided to give it all a miss - I think the real issue now is are the councils going to finally accept their responsibility in this debacle.

Without the backing of our democratically elected councillors - the greenway cannot proceed, West on Track know this and are keen to hold the councils to commitments made in shall we say more heady days, at a time when the only show in town was open this railway.

The railway is not going to proceed. That will be a central government decision and the councils won't have any influence on it. I can assure you this government is not going to deliver any part of the extension of the western rail corridor - that I have on good authority.

Where do we go from here I wonder....probably nowhere is the answer. Its a pity really because I really do believe - as a resident of county Sligo that the greenway would actually make a difference to our local economy, it would create jobs and what's more never mind the tired hungry tourists it would actually be a great local facility for very little money.

It is being stopped by spite.

Naomh Eanna

westtip wrote: »

The railway is not going to proceed. That will be a central government decision and the councils won't have any influence on it. I can assure you this government is not going to deliver any part of the extension of the western rail corridor - that I have on good authority.

Where do we go from here I wonder....probably nowhere is the answer. Its a pity really because I really do believe - as a resident of county Sligo that the greenway would actually make a difference to our local economy, it would create jobs and what's more never mind the tired hungry tourists it would actually be a great local facility for very little money.

It is being stopped by spite.

A pretty accurate post alright.

I think if we had the luxury of time travel and the ability make good our previous mistakes, there are a number of things the Sligo Mayo Greenway campaign could have done:

1: Fight a positive campaign without the need to insult West on Track or local councillors.

2: No Astroturfing - no false names or denials or public forums who you really are as it's obvious anyway

3: No childish black propaganda such as the Adolf Hitler YouTube video and the suggestions for Sensible government website.

4: Drop the associations with the Corrib Gas pipeline

5: Engage positively with everyone and don't give anyone cause to doubt your sincerity. Use your real name and not pseudonyms on boards. No one believes that "I'm just an interested bystander" line.

The Greenway idea is worthwhile. Be positive and drop the nastiness. You have a great idea, no need to wash any dirty linen promoting it.

corktina

i'm just an interested by-stander

eastwest

corktina wrote: »

i'm just an interested by-stander

Me too!

Grandeeod

eastwest wrote: »

Me too!

Ditto!

InchicoreDude

I remember a train on this line back in the 90s. Think it used to pass Tuam every Wednesday. It wasnt a passenger train. But just wondering where it was coming from and where it was going to????

yer man!

I used to be all for the whole corridor reopening as a railway and thought that there was no way a greenway would do well in this area. My view changed once I moved to the US for a while and saw how busy all the new greenways are over here. The vast majority of them are not near major urban centers and are still thronged with people at all times of the week. The individual states took the decision to scrap the idea of a railway reopening due to poor alignment and dwindling population along the route and went with a greenway instead. I use it every week over here and many people travel to them right across New England. The really interesting thing was that the state didn't pay a cent to built any of the greenway near to me. The local people and businesses all contributed to it's construction and are expanding it every year.

dowlingm

yer man! wrote: »

The really interesting thing was that the state didn't pay a cent to built any of the greenway near to me. The local people and businesses all contributed to it's construction and are expanding it every year.

North American jurisdictions are quite good in some respects for putting it up to them demanding and saying "how much are YOU contributing". If the good people of Ardrahan and Craughwell had been told that a local tax levy would be imposed to fund the cost of building a station, the Gort-Athenry section of the Limerick-Galway service might be running 4 minutes faster on every service because they would have balked at paying for a station to lie idle as they got in their cars to commute.

Tuam Greenway Project

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I remember a train on this line back in the 90s. Think it used to pass Tuam every Wednesday. It wasnt a passenger train. But just wondering where it was coming from and where it was going to????

#

The only trains that may have used the line in the 1990's were a Westrail steam engine and carriage, it ran as a potential tourist attraction for a couple of years, or possibly a CIE maintainance crew.

Grandeeod

Tuam Greenway Project wrote: »

#

The only trains that may have used the line in the 1990's were a Westrail steam engine and carriage, it ran as a potential tourist attraction for a couple of years, or possibly a CIE maintainance crew.

Coal trains ran along it between Foynes and the Asahi plant in Mayo during the 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96uwolh_bRQ

corktina

oh man real railwaying, and not very long ago! So much we have lost!

Grandeeod

corktina wrote: »

oh man real railwaying, and not very long ago! So much we have lost!

Stop that now!:D

westtip

Naomh Eanna wrote: »

A pretty accurate post alright.

I think if we had the luxury of time travel and the ability make good our previous mistakes, there are a number of things the Sligo Mayo Greenway campaign could have done:

1: Fight a positive campaign without the need to insult West on Track or local councillors.

2: No Astroturfing - no false names or denials or public forums who you really are as it's obvious anyway

3: No childish black propaganda such as the Adolf Hitler YouTube video and the suggestions for Sensible government website.

4: Drop the associations with the Corrib Gas pipeline

5: Engage positively with everyone and don't give anyone cause to doubt your sincerity. Use your real name and not pseudonyms on boards. No one believes that "I'm just an interested bystander" line.

The Greenway idea is worthwhile. Be positive and drop the nastiness. You have a great idea, no need to wash any dirty linen promoting it.

Hilarious stuff.

1.. SMG has been positive the whole way along and have told councillors to get real in their attitude on this whole WRC thing. Many councillors simply will not engage with the idea of a greenway for fear of losing face and expenses on the inter county railway committee.
2. Never hidden identitiy always posted here as westip. My identity is my own
3. I didn't post the AF video - it was good though
4. Corrib gas pipeline???
5. Engage positively with WOT!!! - read what they have said about the greenway idea, they got an engineers report done which dismissed it out of hand as a defensive measure, they have always knocked the idea and One of their best lines is when one of their spokespersons spoke about no scenery near claremorris!!!

The greenway campaign is very positive, its support is growing, and it has the backing of many people, nearly 300 sent submissions into Mayo Coco asking for a greenway on the old railway from Claremorris to Collooney. It does not have to engage with West on Track - WOT do not own the line, they have an idea about what it could be used for, SMG have a different idea. We don't need to engage with West on Track as the idea of a railway being re-installed on this line is in the realms of Alice in Wonderland, West on Tracks views are largely irrelevant at this stage. No Government is going to give them their railway (er Sinn Fein maybe but they promise 24 hour sunshine to Eskimos in December)
Great post though - thought I would wait a day or two before responding to such twaddle.