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what is the big thing about the Lions?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    That's it. People use the excuse that it's too hard to gel, sort of writing off the likes of NZ/Boks/Aussies, 3 of the best teams in the world.

    No one is saying it's easy, but there's more to it than just the lions gelling. They are playing some of the best opposition in the world.

    What? You're speaking in riddles and changing your argument with every post

    No one is saying the opposition isn't strong but the first post you made you said that past Lions tours have been solely down to NH players not being good enough and totally discounted how difficult it is for such an unfamiliar unit to gel

    Again, how can you say it should be easy for 40 players from 4 different countries to adapt to a single style in a matter of weeks?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    What? You're speaking in riddles and changing your argument with every post

    No one is saying the opposition isn't strong but the first post you made you said that past Lions tours have been solely down to NH players not being good enough and totally discounted how difficult it is for such an unfamiliar unit to gel

    Again, how can you say it should be easy for 40 players from 4 different countries to adapt to a single style in a matter of weeks?

    Now the penny has finally dropped.

    No one is saying it's easy, that's the point, but the cliches that it's impossible to gel isn't working I'm afraid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Now the penny has finally dropped.

    What? :confused:

    Again I ask. How can you back up saying what you said in your OP. You've really offered no explanation to this ridiculous statement

    To remind you, here's what you said:
    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.


    How is it not that hard for 30+ players from 4 different countries to come together in six weeks and come up with enough cohesion to challenge one of the three best sides in the world

    It's clearly one of the biggest challenges facing a lions squad

    Also, no one said it's impossible to gel, you're just making stuff it now


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Now the penny has finally dropped.

    No one is saying it's easy, that's the point, but the cliches that it's impossible to gel isn't working I'm afraid.

    The biggest problem with the 2005 was not the quality of players. It was poor coaching and terrible cohesion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    The biggest problem with the 2005 was not the quality of players. It was poor coaching and terrible cohesion.

    I disagree.

    The biggest problem imo they faced was the opposition. Then, yes, the coaching and cohesion. But my money would be on the ABs to beat them even if they had perfect cohesion and management.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.
    Rightwing wrote: »
    I disagree.

    The biggest problem imo they faced was the opposition. Then, yes, the coaching and cohesion. But my money would be on the ABs to beat them even if they had perfect cohesion and management.

    You're still not backing up your original point man

    Just moving the goalposts with every post


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    What? :confused:

    Again I ask. How can you back up saying what you said in your OP. You've really offered no explanation to this ridiculous statement

    To remind you, here's what you said:




    How is it not that hard for 30+ players from 4 different countries to come together in six weeks and come up with enough cohesion to challenge one of the three best sides in the world

    It's clearly one of the biggest challenges facing a lions squad

    Also, no one said it's impossible to gel, you're just making stuff it now

    I said it's not that hard, recognising the fact that it is hard to gel (that goes without saying), but not impossible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    daheff wrote: »
    I follow rugby....but I dont get the thing about the Lions!

    I know its been going for 50/60 years and is 'technically' seen as international grade rugby..but from my view
    A-Its an excuse to get a GB team (including Ireland in there)
    B-Its pretty much saying that Northern Hemisphere teams (excluding France)arent good enough on their own to compete with Southern Hemisphere teams...so they need to create a team with the best of 4 countries to challenge.
    C- In the professional era, the warm up games are a farce because any internationals (of the country the tour is in) are usually withdrawn and/or the warm up team has other games on and wont play their best team leading to one sided matches. Compound this with semi-pro/amateur players losing the rag with Lions players and thumping/biting /kicking the professionals and causing injury


    So can somebody please explain the draw and appeal of the Lions coz i dont see it

    Its pussy cats with a big cats name.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I said it's not that hard, recognising the fact that it is hard to gel (that goes without saying), but not impossible.

    But you implied it shouldn't be an excuse and it's simply a case of the Lions individuals not being good enough :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    But you implied it shouldn't be an excuse and it's simply a case of the Lions individuals not being good enough :confused:

    Correct.

    The Lions class of 2013 have proven they are good enough to beat Australia. You won't hear the pros like POC using cheap and lazy excuses like 'we've had no time to gel'. They'll go out and get on with it and see if they are good enough. Today they were.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Correct.

    The Lions class of 2013 have proven they are good enough to beat Australia. You won't hear the pros like POC using cheap and lazy excuses like 'we've had no time to gel'. They'll go out and get on with it and see if they are good enough. Today they were.

    Ok, you clearly have no interest in trying to rationally back up what you said originally so I guess we'll leave it there chief


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Ok, you clearly have no interest in trying to rationally back up what you said originally so I guess we'll leave it there chief

    A lost spacecraft I'm afraid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I disagree.

    The biggest problem imo they faced was the opposition. Then, yes, the coaching and cohesion. But my money would be on the ABs to beat them even if they had perfect cohesion and management.

    But they didn't have any cohesion and they had awful management and they were walloped. If they had those things there was a potential squad of World Cup winners and some other really special talents, how were they not good enough to at least challenge?

    It is the perfect tour to show that your initial point was nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    But they didn't have any cohesion and they had awful management and they were walloped. If they had those things there was a potential squad of World Cup winners and some other really special talents, how were they not good enough to at least challenge?

    It is the perfect tour to show that your initial point was nonsense.

    Few key mistakes you are making:

    Awful management and lack of cohesion isn't solely confined to the Lions. For instance, Australia today, putting JOC at 10 ? :confused:

    I never said they weren't good enough to challenge. Lions teams should always challenge, but posters should realise that they are playing some and often the best team in the world. It's not going to be easy even if things go 100% of their way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Few key mistakes you are making:

    Awful management and lack of cohesion isn't solely confined to the Lions. For instance, Australia today, putting JOC at 10 ? :confused:

    I never said they weren't good enough to challenge. Lions teams should always challenge, but posters should realise that they are playing some and often the best team in the world. It's not going to be easy even if things go 100% of their way.

    Who said it would be easy? Now THAT'S a straw man argument right there!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Who said it would be easy? Now THAT'S a straw man argument right there!

    Your basic premise is, it's all about the Lions, mine is: it's not.

    Player for player they are nearly always inferior, this tour they are just about on par with the Aussies.

    You need to evaluate the opposition. Sort of reminds me of Premiership football fans always expecting the likes of Man U/Aresenal to beat Barca/Madrid, and then blaming something like the heat :rolleyes: when they inevitably flop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 351 ✭✭matTNT


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Player for player they are nearly always inferior, this tour they are just about on par with the Aussies.

    Incorrect. They're better by a fair bit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    matTNT wrote: »
    Incorrect. They're better by a fair bit.

    Ya, the backs def are anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Ya, the backs def are anyway.

    The Lions forwards, are far superior to what the Australians have

    In fact what positions would you say the Australians are even on a par with the Lions in terms of depth and talent?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 351 ✭✭matTNT


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Ya, the backs def are anyway.

    The lions forwards and 2-3 of their backs are better. You misinterpreted me ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    I think the World Cup is much bigger than the Lions - think it is much fairer - I believe England have more professional rugby players than any other nation, by quite a bit - genetically English players are not small , so why do 3 nations needed to be added to this strength in depth to make a fair contest is beyond me - ok, there is the historical thing , and yeah it will help Welsh , Scottish and Irish players get a higher win rate - but apart from mass marketing , I think it has had its day (for me ) - roll on the WC


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Because even acknowledging the above, England still don't sit in the top 3. The SH sides do, and it's become more divided in the last few years, so the Lions makes even more sense now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    thebaz wrote: »
    I think the World Cup is much bigger than the Lions - think it is much fairer - I believe England have more professional rugby players than any other nation, by quite a bit - genetically English players are not small , so why do 3 nations needed to be added to this strength in depth to make a fair contest is beyond me - ok, there is the historical thing , and yeah it will help Welsh , Scottish and Irish players get a higher win rate - but apart from mass marketing , I think it has had its day (for me ) - roll on the WC

    I don't think anyone is saying the Lions is bigger than winning a world cup medal. What people are saying it, it's special concept and tour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    .ak wrote: »
    so the Lions makes even more sense now.

    I'd totally disagree - Ireland , England and Wales should be aiming to beat the SH teams more consistently on ther own , rather than having to join forces to do so -


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I read an article with BOD yesterday who described the Lions as the higheset honour for a British or Irish player.

    That's it for me. As long as the players keep buying into the tour and holding it in such high regard it will continue to be as enjoyable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,805 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    thebaz wrote: »
    I'd totally disagree - Ireland , England and Wales should be aiming to beat the SH teams more consistently on ther own , rather than having to join forces to do so -

    Its the whole traditional touring aspect thats the draw, not the chance to beat a SH team. If the Lions beat the Aussies then great, but I'm happier that the players had a great experience and learned from it then I am with the victory.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭Alpha Dog 1


    .ak wrote: »
    Because even acknowledging the above, England still don't sit in the top 3. The SH sides do, and it's become more divided in the last few years, so the Lions makes even more sense now.

    Nonsense, sure Scotland beat Australia last year, Ireland beat them at the world cup and there's no doubt that both Wales and England are both capable of beating this aussie side.

    Too much money involved in the lions for it to be changed. There jersey is the biggest selling jersey in the world.

    It should be northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere were only the best players in the world play.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    I read an article with BOD yesterday who described the Lions as the higheset honour for a British or Irish player.

    That's it for me. As long as the players keep buying into the tour and holding it in such high regard it will continue to be as enjoyable.

    That's the subtle difference. It's the highest honour in terms of wearing a jersey, after all you are the best of 4 countries, but all the players would not swap a Test win series for a world cup medal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Rightwing wrote: »
    That's the subtle difference. It's the highest honour in terms of wearing a jersey, after all you are the best of 4 countries, but all the players would swap a Test win series for a world cup medal.

    The thread title is "what is the big deal about the Lions", not "what is the big deal about winning a Lions test series" though


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    The thread title is "what is the big deal about the Lions", not "what is the big deal about winning a Lions test series" though

    I can answer that one for you: They find it damn hard to win a series.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Rightwing wrote: »
    all the players would swap a Test win series for a world cup medal.

    I'd seriously doubt it - to me it should be a much bigger honour winning a WC medal with your country

    and when I remember England winning the WC , it was - the Sky coverage was intolerable ;-)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 351 ✭✭matTNT


    thebaz wrote: »
    I'd seriously doubt it - to me it should be a much bigger honour winning a WC medal with your country


    Dan Lydiate said that captaining the Lions in a midweek match was the greatest moment of his career. (Which has included Grand Slams and a SF appearance in the WC.

    However the argument that a WC medal is better than a Lions tour series win is pointless, it's like asking a parent which child they love more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    thebaz wrote: »
    I'd seriously doubt it - to me it should be a much bigger honour winning a WC medal with your country

    and when I remember England winning the WC , it was - the Sky coverage was intolerable ;-)

    You are right, I left out the word 'not', so I edited the initial post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,541 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    matTNT wrote: »
    Dan Lydiate said that captaining the Lions in a midweek match was the greatest moment of his career. (Which has included Grand Slams and a SF appearance in the WC.

    A wild stab in the dark but was this in answer to an incredibly leading post match question by a Sky Sports journo, a question which any answer other than 'Yes, yes it is, totally the greatest moment' would have been seen as churlish and bad for squad morale?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,422 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    A wild stab in the dark but was this in answer to an incredibly leading post match question by a Sky Sports journo, a question which any answer other than 'Yes, yes it is, totally the greatest moment' would have been seen as churlish and bad for squad morale?

    In the same way that BOD isn't going to say 'well actually now, there are greater honours than being here' when asked whether being here is the greatest honour possible.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    The thread asks what the appeal of the Lions is, not whether captaining a midweek team is the greatest moment in Dan Lydiate's career or not. Even if representing the Lions isn't the single greatest moment in a players career, it's still clearly a big ambition for most players, and despite all the arguments in this thread it's still extremely relevant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    In the same way that BOD isn't going to say 'well actually now, there are greater honours than being here' when asked whether being here is the greatest honour possible.

    He wasn't asked if it was the greatest honour. He replied with that line when talking about Sam Warburton I believe it was.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭patmac


    So in light of Gatlands dreadful IMO decision to drop BOD has people's love for the Lion's diminished? A lot of people agreeing with a quote from Larvie34 in the other thread: The 4 year old in me says I hope they loose.
    No wait,the 39 year old in me says I hope they loose..... ( should be lose but we know what he means).
    Keith Wood on Newstalk said the decision was a disgrace and that Gatland doesn't 'get' the Lions. I haven't got the Lions myself this time around. Win or lose I won't be celebrating, think I'll back the draw @20/1 to give myself something to cheer, that would be a fitting end to an overhyped contest, or maybe it would be worth an Australian win just to see the look on Gatland's face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    patmac wrote: »
    So in light of Gatlands dreadful IMO decision to drop BOD has people's love for the Lion's diminished? A lot of people agreeing with a quote from Larvie34 in the other thread: The 4 year old in me says I hope they loose.
    No wait,the 39 year old in me says I hope they loose..... ( should be lose but we know what he means).
    Keith Wood on Newstalk said the decision was a disgrace and that Gatland doesn't 'get' the Lions. I haven't got the Lions myself this time around. Win or lose I won't be celebrating, think I'll back the draw @20/1 to give myself something to cheer, that would be a fitting end to an overhyped contest, or maybe it would be worth an Australian win just to see the look on Gatland's face.

    No, Quinny had a good read about the lions in last weeks Ir Times. People go to follow them mainly for the booze and the party.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    daheff wrote: »
    I follow rugby....but I dont get the thing about the Lions!

    I know its been going for 50/60 years and is 'technically' seen as international grade rugby..but from my view
    A-Its an excuse to get a GB team (including Ireland in there)
    B-Its pretty much saying that Northern Hemisphere teams (excluding France)arent good enough on their own to compete with Southern Hemisphere teams...so they need to create a team with the best of 4 countries to challenge.
    C- In the professional era, the warm up games are a farce because any internationals (of the country the tour is in) are usually withdrawn and/or the warm up team has other games on and wont play their best team leading to one sided matches. Compound this with semi-pro/amateur players losing the rag with Lions players and thumping/biting /kicking the professionals and causing injury


    So can somebody please explain the draw and appeal of the Lions coz i dont see it

    It's like a dream team. Everyone has their own first 15 and very few agree. There are games within games and even getting selected is a battle in itself.
    And you are right there is a massive advantage having four countries against one but playing away from home and at the end of your season is a big minus.
    Also, getting the styles of players from different countries with different playing styles is also a big challenge not just for the players but the coach.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    The entire tour is a big let down compared to the last one. Selections have been poor (ridiculous on some occasions), its more of a Welsh team than a Lions team which kinda ruins the whole point in it, the game plan is anti rugby and the rugby played has been poor and not exciting at all. Only thing that kept it interesting was the fact that the Aussies were just as poor if not poorer which made the games so close.

    All in all I'm sorry I paid for Sky Sports to watch the games, waste of money tbh given the quality of and standard of the whole thing. Thats just me though, maybe some of you people with money to burn are happy enough just to have the games on at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    right I'll say it - the Lions should be put to bed - same as the Barbarians - these players should be resting and preparing for next season instead of lining peoples pockets commercially - its just a money making excercise - that makes no sense to me , the only home nation i can see benefitting these days is Scotland , and they hardly get any players picked - life changes , lets move on


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    The entire tour is a big let down compared to the last one. Selections have been poor (ridiculous on some occasions), its more of a Welsh team than a Lions team which kinda ruins the whole point in it, the game plan is anti rugby and the rugby played has been poor and not exciting at all. Only thing that kept it interesting was the fact that the Aussies were just as poor if not poorer which made the games so close.

    All in all I'm sorry I paid for Sky Sports to watch the games, waste of money tbh given the quality of and standard of the whole thing. Thats just me though, maybe some of you people with money to burn are happy enough just to have the games on at all.

    Last tour they were really unlucky, I was much more for them, playing nice rugby, as well seeing as there were so many Munster boys on it, this year, it's a Welsh thing, too much so, players like C Robshaw not even touring ? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    I like this idea from the ARU:

    Pulver would like to see Australia, New Zealand and South Africa unite to form a team that would face the home nations to mark the 100th anniversary of Gallipoli in two years' time.
    "I would love the idea if you could find a southern hemisphere combination," Pulver said.
    "I'd even be happy with an ANZAC team, taking the best of Australia and New Zealand. Imagine playing a combined Australia-New Zealand team against an allies team.
    "We've got a cycle coming up where you have a Lions tour in one year, you have a World Cup in one year and we've now got an Olympic Games in one year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Robshaw not touring is about as far down the list of questionable selections that were made before and during this tour that I'm not sure if it's even worth mentioning


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭Alpha Dog 1


    Where would the lions be without sky sports?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    thebaz wrote: »
    right I'll say it - the Lions should be put to bed - same as the Barbarians - these players should be resting and preparing for next season instead of lining peoples pockets commercially - its just a money making excercise - that makes no sense to me , the only home nation i can see benefitting these days is Scotland , and they hardly get any players picked - life changes , lets move on

    Doubt the players agree with that. Nor anyone in the absolutely jam packed pubs in west London last Saturday morning


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Doubt the players agree with that. Nor anyone in the absolutely jam packed pubs in west London last Saturday morning

    Absolutely, everyone made a packet out of it including the players, with the ARU laughing all the way to the bank.


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