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what is the big thing about the Lions?

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    #122
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,291 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    As an irish fan, my knowledge of players such as jpr williams, david duckham, gavin hastings etc all come from their exploits on lions tours and not what they did in the 6/5 nations etc.

    Legends are made in lions tours.


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    #123
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,240 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Tox56 wrote: »
    OK you don't like it, we get it, but there is clearly a massive market for it (hence why it's so profitable as you point out) and I would say the overwhelming majority of 'rugby fans' don't share your view. If/when your opinion becomes the majority it's relevance may be in question but there is absolutely no sign of that happening any time soon

    Well again I'd disagree - it's more than an academic point to question why something is currently popular. For me, I think the current popularity is a function of a well crafted media build up and a huge hole in the sporting calendar. The current squabbles over the format of the Heineken Cup should be an indication that everything is negotiable in Rugby these days. I don't think it's outlandish to imagine more regular cross hemisphere competition (either at club or International level) in the future and it possibly putting the Lions tour under doubt.

    Whereas other sporting events like the FIFA World Cup or the Olympic games may as well be cast in stone.


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    #124
    patmac
    Registered Users Posts: 7,567 ✭✭✭patmac


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    The problem here is that there are newbie Rugby fans who don't really get Rugby. I see that on twitter where the Heineken cup is a bigger deal than the Lions, judging by number of posts per game. Well that will never be the case for the players.

    The order of preference of wins for players ( in the home associations):

    1) World Cup
    2) Lions
    3) 6 N
    4) Heineken
    5) Other tournaments not the Heineken.



    Nice post, so because I don't agree with you I am a newbie:rolleyes:. I have a medal from Junior Rugby from the early 80's and attended Lansdowne when we won the Triple Crown back in 85 and have witnessed a lot of changes since. I would find it difficult to believe that O'Connell and O'Driscoll would rate a Lions test win over the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup wins maybe on a par, there is no way I would, or have you forgotten the open top parades etc. A lot of people are looking at this though from a player's point of view but not as a fan. The Lions would be no 4 on that list for me. Anyway good luck to the Lions tomorrow be nice if they won.


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    #125
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Well again I'd disagree - it's more than an academic point to question why something is currently popular. For me, I think the current popularity is a function of a well crafted media build up and a huge hole in the sporting calendar. The current squabbles over the format of the Heineken Cup should be an indication that everything is negotiable in Rugby these days. I don't think it's outlandish to imagine more regular cross hemisphere competition (either at club or International level) in the future and it possibly putting the Lions tour under doubt.

    Whereas other sporting events like the FIFA World Cup or the Olympic games may as well be cast in stone.

    Well if you're going to compare it to the FIFA World Cup and Olympic games yes there is only one winner but it's not like the thousands who travel to follow the Lions and the rest who follow it from home are being brainwashed by this massive media campaign, I couldn't care less whether it's Sky or TG4 covering the Lions I just love the concept. The history doesn't become irrelevant just because they're getting paid and not going on 'old school' tours, the history of the thing and following in the footsteps of legends is definitely one of it's biggest draws. You look at the behind the scenes footage from 2009 and 1997 (both in the professional era) and see how much the players care, you'd be doing well to find that passion in a dressing room before a H Cup final

    Personally I get fed up with the importance placed on the World Cup and seemingly endless build up to that, I'd rather watch a Lions test series any day


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    #126
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    patmac wrote: »
    Nice post, so because I don't agree with you I am a newbie:rolleyes:. I have a medal from Junior Rugby from the early 80's and attended Lansdowne when we won the Triple Crown back in 85 and have witnessed a lot of changes since. I would find it difficult to believe that O'Connell and O'Driscoll would rate a Lions test win over the Grand Slam and Heineken Cup wins maybe on a par, there is no way I would, or have you forgotten the open top parades etc. A lot of people are looking at this though from a player's point of view but not as a fan. The Lions would be no 4 on that list for me. Anyway good luck to the Lions tomorrow be nice if they won.

    Indeed.

    Maybe the likes of SOB might swap a H cup medal (he has 3) for a Lions Test place and series win. But no way for just a cap.


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    #127
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Would S Williams swap his recent cap for a H cup medal? I think so.

    S Williams didn't get a cap. You only get caps for test matches.


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    #128
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Would S Williams swap his recent cap for a H cup medal? I think so.

    That's an argument to an extreme example, always an example of a flawed argument. He was lucky to get called up and won't be in the test games or had a chance if being in a test game.

    Clearly the Heineken cup is not at the level of competition as the Lions. Most home players in it are not good enough to play for the lions.


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    #129
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    That's an argument to an extreme example, always an example of a flawed argument. He was lucky to get called up and won't be in the test games or had a chance if being in a test game.

    Clearly the Heineken cup is not at the level of competition as the Lions. Most home players in it are not good enough to play for the lions.

    No doubt about that. That's why I rate the Lions as the ultimate for an Irish player. Has to be a Test cap though.


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    #130
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Indeed.

    Maybe the likes of SOB might swap a H cup medal (he has 3) for a Lions Test place and series win. But no way for just a cap.

    You guys are comparing a win in a club competition to just an appearance in an international competition, often in a warmup game . Compare wins with wins. And the quality of the opposition ( tests not warm up games). BOD would probably prefer a win in the Heineken cup to an Irish win over Italy but would prefer an Irish grand slam to the Heineken cup.

    And if he as versed in rugby lore as I think he is he would have preferred to captain the Lions team to victory than any one 6n victories. It's a rarer honour and privilege.


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    #131
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    You guys are comparing a win in a club competition to just an appearance in an international competition, often in a warmup game . Compare wins with wins. And the quality of the opposition ( tests not warm up games). BOD would probably prefer a win in the Heineken cup to an Irish win over Italy but would prefer an Irish grand slam to the Heineken cup.

    And if he as versed in rugby lore as I think he is he would have preferred to captain the Lions team to victory than any one 6n victories. It's a rarer honour and privilege.

    I agree, Warburton has the chance to become a legend, and all at the age of what, 24 ?


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    #132
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,920 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Every 4 years they should hold a game, North vs South, whatever players you like, hold it in North Korea at that 150,000 stadium. If its going to be Rugby awesomeness, might as well go the whole hog!


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    #133
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Clearly the Heineken cup is not at the level of competition as the Lions. Most home players in it are not good enough to play for the lions.

    Hogwash. Its a competition between 2 teams for christ sake. The standard of players are higher but you only have to win 2 games and you've won the series.

    In the HC Cup you have to win a minimum of 7 out of 9 games.


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    #134
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Oh and to emphasise how inane the whole underlying concept of this Lions tour is.

    According to the IRB, England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland, combined rugby-playing population is 226,297 whilst Australia have a staggering 39,380 :rolleyes:


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    #135
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Playing numbers in Australia for union aren't a hugely accurate way of assessing those that are available to the professional union teams. Look at their squad at the moment.

    Israel Folau, AFL/NRL background having played both professionally.
    Berrick Barnes, was playing pro RL with the Broncos before joining union at 19.
    Joe Tomane, only moved across to union two years ago after playing league professionally.
    Wycliff Palu, played professional rugby league.

    Their potential players extends far beyond the guys that are currently registered as union players.


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    #136
    Klunk_NZ
    Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭Klunk_NZ


    An Annual Rest of World vs whover is #1 in the IRB Rankings would be sick.


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    #137
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    People who think the pick of the home nations should automatically beat any side if Northern Hemisphere rugby was any good really don't realise just how hard it is to take the best players in four nations and try and make them gel into a cohesive unit in such a short space of time. The familiarity and experience the nation playing the touring side has is a huge advantage.


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    #138
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    People who think the pick of the home nations should automatically beat any side if Northern Hemisphere rugby was any good really don't realise just how hard it is to take the best players in four nations and try and make them gel into a cohesive unit in such a short space of time. The familiarity and experience the nation playing the touring side has is a huge advantage.

    It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.


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    #139
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.

    Possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read


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    #140
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

    You need to read just a lil more.


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    #141
    matTNT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 351 ✭✭matTNT


    lol, I'm watching the first test and this thread, if not before, now is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever read. What a game, what intensity.


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    #142
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's not that hard, just means they are not good enough.

    It's not that hard to gel 30+ players into one system for top level rugby against one of the best sides in the world in under six weeks? Well sir that must be one of the most naive opinions I've ever read on this place


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    #143
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Also, that 40 minutes, that's the big deal


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    #144
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    It's not that hard to gel 30+ players into one system for top level rugby against one of the best sides in the world in under six weeks? Well sir that must be one of the most naive opinions I've ever read on this place

    It's hard for the inexperienced novice, not for the professionals.

    Hope that helps.


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    #145
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Anyone who can watch the 40 minutes of rugby just passed and still argue against the Lions is broken in the head I reckon.


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    #146
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    It's hard for the inexperienced novice, not for the professionals.

    Hope that helps.

    It's much harder for professionals. Do you realise the huge subtleties and preparation that goes into a test game? Familiarity is key

    Hence why the Baabaa's often lose despite having a better side on paper to a lot of the teams they play


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    #147
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    It's much harder for professionals. Do you realise the huge subtleties and preparation that goes into a test game? Familiarity is key

    Hence why the Baabaa's often lose despite having a better side on paper to a lot of the teams they play

    The babas don't care. They don't even want to care. Exhibition rugby.

    It's a cheap, tired, lazy cliche to be using, it's too hard to gel.


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    #148
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Rightwing wrote: »
    The babas don't care. They don't even want to care. Exhibition rugby.

    It's a cheap, tired, lazy cliche to be using, it's too hard to gel.

    Right ignore the Baabaa's so. Getting a cohesive unit going is the hardest task for the Lions and familiarity gives the host nation a serious advantage. How are you saying that isn't true?


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    #149
    Alpha Dog 1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭Alpha Dog 1


    Northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere, played every two years, EPIC.


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    #150
    patmac
    Registered Users Posts: 7,567 ✭✭✭patmac


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Right ignore the Baabaa's so. Getting a cohesive unit going is the hardest task for the Lions and familiarity gives the host nation a serious advantage. How are you saying that isn't true?

    The Lions are together a lot longer than the Wallabies on this tour which is why they tend to win the first test more often. A win is a win but I am seriously underwhelmed, in the cold light of day one of the strongest lions team on paper just beat one of the poorest Southern Hemisphere teams ever who had 3 players stretchered off and no goal kicker.


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    #151
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    patmac wrote: »
    The Lions are together a lot longer than the Wallabies on this tour which is why they tend to win the first test more often. A win is a win but I am seriously underwhelmed, in the cold light of day one of the strongest lions team on paper just beat one of the poorest Southern Hemisphere teams ever who had 3 players stretchered off and no goal kicker.

    That's it. People use the excuse that it's too hard to gel, sort of writing off the likes of NZ/Boks/Aussies, 3 of the best teams in the world.

    No one is saying it's easy, but there's more to it than just the lions gelling. They are playing some of the best opposition in the world.


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