Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

Mark Tapley · 08-06-2013 02:12AM

Ravelleman wrote: »

Funny that Voltaire´s attitude towards the Jews is such a topic of debate.

He seems popular with the conspiracy theorists. Seems pertinent to point out that he might be grinding his own axe.

kowloon · 08-06-2013 02:37AM

I agree, but I think it invites accusations of being part of some evil lobby group if someone talks about the Holocaust like it's confined to one group. The Nazis loved killing anyone Slavic for instance. If they were as objective as possible with the history there would be less room for anyone crying agenda.

08-06-2013 02:37AM

I think its stupid to question the Holocaust and the fact that one human could do that to each other is shocking and its something that should always be remembered so it doesn't happen again.

That said, the Chinese death toll was greater then the Jewish death toll but seems to be forgotten or swept under the carpet.

Links234 · 08-06-2013 02:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That said, the Chinese death toll was greater then the Jewish death toll but seems to be forgotten or swept under the carpet.

it's not forgotten or swept under the carpet

and you still get plenty of Japanese twits who're completely ignorant of what their military did mouthing off about how **** like the Nanking massacre didn't happen, or denying any wrongdoing during the war, and it makes international news. example

Winston Payne · 08-06-2013 02:54AM

They weren't sex slaves. They were "comfort women".

kowloon · 08-06-2013 02:55AM

Links234 wrote: »

it's not forgotten or swept under the carpet

and you still get plenty of Japanese twits who're completely ignorant of what their military did mouthing off about how **** like the Nanking massacre didn't happen, or denying any wrongdoing during the war, and it makes international news. example

I remember there being a lot of hassle over a movie on the topic a few years back. The Japanese made **** of the Philippines and everywhere else they landed too. I wouldn't take them as a moral yardstick to hold against the Nazis or the Soviets. Chiang Kai-Shek didn't treat his own people with much respect either.

Aseth · 08-06-2013 02:59AM

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

First - the topic has been researched. If you don't know this - I suggest google.
Second - go visit Poland - Auschwitz(or Oswiecim). It's an eye opener.

Norfolk Enchants · 08-06-2013 03:00AM

kowloon wrote: »

I remember there being a lot of hassle over a movie on the topic a few years back. The Japanese made **** of the Philippines and everywhere else they landed too. I wouldn't take them as a moral yardstick to hold against the Nazis or the Soviets. Chiang Kai-Shek didn't treat his own people with much respect either.

The Japanese have yet to acknowledge their atrocities, never mind apologise for it. Ditto with the Armenian genocide, the Turks have yet to acknowledge their actions and apologise for them.

At least the Germans admitted their crimes, apologised and compensated the victims and their relatives. Still do, to this day.

Its a strange one. Speak or even mention ww2 to a young German and immediately they are apologising and mentioning their regret - whilst a Japanese or Turkish young person would dismiss their peoples atrocities as mere propaganda.

kowloon · 08-06-2013 03:08AM

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

The Japanese have yet to acknowledge their atrocities, never mind apologise for it.

If I remember correctly, at the time they accused the film makers of pushing Chinese propaganda.

As for the moral comparison, I meant at the time, how they've all dealt with it after the fact varies. I believe Putin's crowd pushed a lot of revisionism in Russia, and not the kind that favours transparency and the truth.

keeponhurling · 08-06-2013 03:21AM

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

The Japanese have yet to acknowledge their atrocities, never mind apologise for it.
.

Actually I don't think this is correct, consecutive Japanese government officials have visited China and apologized.

The issue is that every year they visit a shrine to Japanese miliatary generals to pay respects, and this contains the graves of some of the butchers of Nanjing. Which upsets China.
However if the Japanese PM didn't pay his respects, he'd be seen as disresepcted all Japan's war dead.

The memorial site in Nanjing where an estimated 300,000 were butchered is regularly visited by Japanese delegates

DEFTLEFTHAND · 08-06-2013 03:21AM

What are people's thoughts on the Madagascar plan? Could that have worked and averted this atrocity? Hitler stalled when it came time to act out on the Final Solution, the Madagascar plan was trashed out continuously among high ranking party members in 1940. There's a theory that Heydrich was the one to convince Hitler to follow through on the FS.

Norfolk Enchants · 08-06-2013 03:22AM

kowloon wrote: »

If I remember correctly, at the time they accused the film makers of pushing Chinese propaganda.

As for the moral comparison, I meant at the time, how they've all dealt with it after the fact varies. I believe Putin's crowd pushed a lot of revisionism in Russia, and not the kind that favours transparency and the truth.

Nearly every country slants their teaching of history to shine themselves in a more favourable light, to a certain degree. Even ourselves. Im only a few years out of secondary myself, but reading unbiased sources of Irish history - I've got to ask myself, was I being taught Irish history, or being recruited for a flying column. I jest...

But the Germans are taught the ins and outs of their role in ww2, warts and all, and they are deeply ashamed. No nationalistic tinge, just heres what happened, we fcuked up and thats that. I respect them for it.

The Japanese, Turks and many other nationalities could take a leaf out of their book imho.

Zebra3 · 08-06-2013 03:32AM

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

Which holocaust?

The one against the natives of the Americas?

The one against the natives of Australia?

The one against the Armenians?

The one carried out by the Germans and their collaborators against other Germans, Roma, Russians, Poles, jews, Serbs, amongst others?

humberklog · 08-06-2013 03:33AM

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

The Japanese have yet to acknowledge their atrocities, never mind apologise for it.

You're wrong, they have apologised.

All you have to do is Google Apologies Japan and you'll get a very well listed wiki index of them.

Cody Pomeray · 08-06-2013 03:35AM

Giblet wrote: »

Because the people who question it usually haven't got past the research part.

True, but I'm pretty sure most regular people who don't doubt the numbers haven't researched it either.

This isn't a bad thing; we take established facts for granted all the time. I can't prove Einstein's theory of Relativity either. In fact, I can't prove anything beyond leaving cert calculus. For all I know the entire mathematical universe beyond leaving cert calculus is a myth. In these cases, it may be acceptable to take facts on their face value, based on the credibility of those who advocate them.

On the other hand, we also admit that those people who wish to go beyond leaving cert calculus and entertain themselves with investigative incursions into whatever minority topic takes their fancy - D-Day, canals of Ireland, judicial conventions in Brehon law - are free to do so and more luck to them.

The Holocaust occupies a different sphere of examination to these rather benign topics. The Holocaust seems to be above the usual level of rigorous, (but constructive) debate that might ordinarily occur between individuals

I'm not willing to get into that debate because it is sullied with baseless and hurtful accusations of anti-Semitism (admittedly because the anti Semitists are attracted to it).

I just don't think that's a healthy situation. I think a lot of people who otherwise have an interest in human rights just walk away from doing any research or taking an academic interest in the Holocaust. Ultimately it's an unhelpful situation because it leads to comments like this one right here, which can be misconstrued as giving credence to Holocaust denial, when all we want is a normal debate.

keeponhurling · 08-06-2013 03:39AM

humberklog wrote: »

You're wrong, they have apologised.

All you have to do is Google Apologies Japan and you'll get a very well listed wiki index of them.

I know it's wikipedia but you get the message, to say that Japan has not apologized is actually Chinese propaganda!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

JD DABA · 08-06-2013 03:41AM

Its just one of those things OP that has so much emotion involved that objectivity cant be achieved, instead you'll just get accusations and brow-beaten. (by people who cant separate a question from an opportunity to let their inner Jeremy Kyle out).

This kind of Sht holds back so much in life, sometimes you cant get at the information without asking a question, and you cant ask the question without joining a 'side'.

Its like that for philosophical questions too, economics, politics and even sports.

Its a good means of identifying lifes Bill O'Reillys though.

Fortunately you can google lots of stuff these days.....although you will of course be put on a list somewhere in the NSA's server.

jimeryan22 · 08-06-2013 03:44AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Which holocaust?

The one against the natives of the Americas?

The one against the natives of Australia?

The one against the Armenians?

The one carried out by the Germans and their collaborators against other Germans, Roma, Russians, Poles, jews, Serbs, amongst others?

And don't forget the genocide by the allies after the war on Palestinians just to make Israel.

enfant terrible · 08-06-2013 03:44AM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Ohh, it did, but you don't hear about it every feckin day. I guess the wrong sort of people died in that one - not as media friendly.. If paddies ran the media, the famine would be reknowned. I'd also like to vote for a "Multiple thanks" button for eramens post.

Sick of hearing about it.

Heard Chandler and Ross talking about it today on an episode of Friends.

Time to move on.

April O Neill · 08-06-2013 04:23AM

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

I agree, even though I disagree with every holocaust denier I've heard speak.

jimeryan22 · 08-06-2013 04:24AM

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

Having the "opinion" the holocaust didn't happen I find far more "disturbing", in fact damn offending.. It's like saying the sun didn't come up today

Caribbean Cat · 08-06-2013 04:43AM

You do all know we have another day of sunshine tomorrow?Like pure unadulterated sunshine and warmth, the likes Ireland only gets every TEN years! Get out and do the shiz that you all complain about because it is raining usually.Go walk the cat if you have to...it is beautiful outside!

April O Neill · 08-06-2013 04:56AM

Clandestine wrote: »

Most "Holocaust deniers" aren't denying that the holocaust occurred, rather they raise suspicions about certain "facts" of the holocaust e.g how many people actually died, were gas cambers used.

Actually, a problem I have with deniers is them saying things like "Oh people say X amount of people died, but only Y amount did" as if that makes it ok, even if it was true.

Y amount is still too many!!!

Dotsie~tmp · 08-06-2013 05:11AM

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

Questioning whether or not something happened will shed light on why that thing happened? Slight logic breakdown there I think.

the_syco · 08-06-2013 05:22AM

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

Most who question the holocaust create odd facts, such as how jews were treated nicely, were not experimented on, and can never really explain where they disappeared to after reaching Auschwitz...

Rasheed · 08-06-2013 06:14AM

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

But the Germans are taught the ins and outs of their role in ww2, warts and all, and they are deeply ashamed. No nationalistic tinge, just heres what happened, we fcuked up and thats that. I respect them for it.

The Japanese, Turks and many other nationalities could take a leaf out of their book imho.

Yeah I was living with two Germans in college at a stage and after a few drinks we for talking about the Holocaust. I was fascinated how they were taught as you said the 'warts and all' of their involvement. No defending, denying, or glossing over it, just the complete information. It's really not that long ago, one lads grandfather was in the German army at the time and the others great grand father. I don't think they were apologetic though, not that they needed to, just recognised what happened and fully understood the horrific nature of it. As you said, you'd respect and admire them for it.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 08-06-2013 09:00AM

I've been over there 4 times on trips since 08. I feel that German national pride is still seen as dicy in some quarters, we'd a barman in Dusseldorf once telling us he was Westphalian only. Compared to other countries they don't seem to fly their national reunification flag in major dwelling areas as much.

The world doesn't hold anything against them, Germany today is a fabulous country and they should be proud.

Grayson · 08-06-2013 09:09AM

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

Not really. It's more disturbing that the turkish government can deny the existance of the armenian genocide.

As for the shoah, in most of the countries where it's illegal to deny it it's because those countries contributed to the genocide. And it should be illegal to deny it or call it a conspiracy theory. Some things are so horrific that we should never forget them or be allowed to attempt to place them in some kind of ethical grey area.
The holocaust is one of the few acts which is and should be remembered through out history. The acts the nazi's committed should never be excused or ignored. I realise that other mass deaths have occured such as Stalins purges. But the difference is that there was absolutely no benefit to the nazi's from the holocaust. Wheras for stalin and others there was a benefit of sorts. Stalin targeted people that were percieved as threats. The act of killing millions of jews was done simply because of an irrational view of race and religion. They were targeted for reasons that were out of their control and they were systematically rounded up, transported and killed in factories of death. Race randomly decided who was the victim and who was the killer.

Haelium wrote: »

People who question creationism generally happen to have extreme secular politics or are nihilists, or both.

So the pope is a secular nihilist?

people who question creationism do so because there is absolutely no evidence for it. None what so ever. There's a reason it's called the "creationism myth"

Grayson · 08-06-2013 09:19AM

April O Neill wrote: »

Actually, a problem I have with deniers is them saying things like "Oh people say X amount of people died, but only Y amount did" as if that makes it ok, even if it was true.

Y amount is still too many!!!

THAT FONT IS TOO BIG!

Actually, I think the only thing wrong with those sort of statements is the word only. only 3 million died, not 6 million for example. Only makes it sound like it's a lot smaller and I guess it is. I mean, three million more lived an that's loads. But 3 million died too. I think that it's just that language can fail to grasp it. Our language was never designed to talk about acts so bad.

I do think there should be investigations and no-one should be safe from investigation. There were Jews in the Warsaw and Lodz ghetto's who cooperated. they helped organise the relocation groups. i.e. the people who were shipped off to the death camps. Even when it became clear what was happening they still helped. And because the jewish leadership in the ghetto's believed no-one would commit such horrific acts, they were against organised resistance. One stat i read in the trial of Eichmann said that most of the jews who resisted survived. but 90-something percent of those that didn't died. Eichman said that the holocaust would have been impossible without the cooperation of the jews. From the ghetto's to the gas camps they did all the work, including much of the organisation.

That's not to excuse the germans. I'm just saying that the holocaust should be investigated. It should have questions asked. But it shouldn't be denied. Something like that deserves the whole ugly truth to be told.

EDITED TO ADD: btw, I'm not saying it was 3 or 5 or 6 million or anything. I just used those figures as an example. And when i say investigate, I don't mean that established facts should be questioned. Just that there are some hazy areas that may not be pleasant or fit the established narrative.

CruelCoin · 08-06-2013 09:42AM

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

I reckon it's because the Americans would rather we not dig into the whole concentration camp thing, and re-publish their efforts in the Philippines or the British effort in South Africa.

Not sure they'd want the greater public to learn how they perfected the concentration camp idea, and the Germans just aped it off them.

Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

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