Season 3 Episode 9: Have NOT read the books/BEWARE SPOILERS MOD NOTE POST #1

04-06-2013 01:18PM

wayne040576 wrote: »

Watch episode 4 again.

Interesting - I have a decent memory of that episode but will run through again.

Obvious culprit is Tywin, but I can't help but think Littlefinger had something to do with it, given his interest in Sansa and his capacity to plan ahead.

In any case - I'll take your advice and re watch this episode, but not until after next weeks finale.

04-06-2013 01:25PM

I can't get that image of some guy calmly walking over to a seated and pregnant Talisa before stabbing her repeatedly in the stomach. Brutal and visceral. Now that the Starks are practically all eliminated who will Mr Martin pick on next?

Burt Macklin · 04-06-2013 01:28PM

Two more names added to Arya's death list anyway. It would be cool if she became like the bride in Kill Bill and took them out one by one. The Hound could even be the Pai Mei figure, hell this storyline writes itself!

wayne040576 · 04-06-2013 01:37PM

One interesting thing I only found out today is that Martin based the red wedding on the story of the Black Dinner from Scottish history:

http://iainthepict.blogspot.ie/2011/11/earl-of-douglas-and-black-dinner.html

The Corinthian · 04-06-2013 01:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Obvious culprit is Tywin, but I can't help but think Littlefinger had something to do with it, given his interest in Sansa and his capacity to plan ahead.

I must have missed the bit where someone said "Lord Bailish sends his regards"...

They play Rains of Castamere and Lanister regards are given; what do you want; a neon sign flashing "Tywin's behind this!!!"?

Bacchus · 04-06-2013 01:41PM

I wonder can we expect Joffrey to bite the dust soon (i.e. next week)? When the Red Witch was burning the leeches with Stannis listing the names I remember thinking, "well there's no way Rob's going to be killed any time soon, this is just hokus pokus". Now though, anything could happen and I would not be surprised to see Joffrey meet his doom, perhaps after the wedding, leaving the Tyrells with a Queen on the throne.

Oh also, we have Theon's miserable, ball-less existence to sort out too. Yay!

K_user · 04-06-2013 01:43PM

Bacchus wrote: »

Stannis listing the names I remember thinking, "well there's no way Rob's going to be killed any time soon, this is just hokus pokus".

I bet the onion knight was thinking the same thing!

squonk · 04-06-2013 01:44PM

Like everyone else I was shocked. A few points first though...

- I thought Dany's story this week was weak. The battle was very undramatic. I'm hoping the new guy they've met loses his head like his friends - I like Ser Jorah! He's put in the work so far...

- Nice to see the wildling band disintegrating. Jon leaving Ygritte behind was disappointing. I thought she deserved better. I feel sorry for her now.

- Bran's transformation into badass warg is very interesting! Up til now there has been nothing to stand up to Dany when she eventually shows up. Now we have Bran who can either control her dragons, or may be able to influence the commander of the unsullied... who knows but suddenly things have gotten interesting!

- The Wedding... my god what can I say! Through spoilers I had heard that Robb and Cat die. I didn't know how, or when and I felt that Cat might actually outlive Robb. What happened to Tulisa was horrific - I was numb after that and couldn't pay complete attention to other events as they unfolded. I initially liked Walder Frey. His comments about Tulisa were disgusting and lewd but I took them as being those of a randy oul' lad and assumed he was still happy to be getting his wedding. Once the door closed, I knew something bad was going down. I didn't recognise the song. I don't think Cat had any choice but to grab Frey's wife. She was chancing her arm to save Robb and using the only thing she had at her disposal, though I knew myself that Frey didn't give a toss about his wife. I just finished book 1 and after that it was clear that, to Frey, women are fairly insignificant and if you lose one you just get another. I'm left genuinely sad by what has happened though. I liked Robb, even if he did frustrate me this season. Cat was becoming pretty useless and annoying but I hoped she might redeem herself, as I figured only Robb would die. I like the Starks overall. I think they represent good, normal decency in a world where such a concept hardly exists. Any respect I had for Bolton is long gone now. What a cúnt! I rarely use the word but it's applicable here. I really think he did this off his own bat, and that the lure of lannister gold as payment for a job well done is his likely motivation. I hope though that he ends up with his head on the end of a Lannister spike at some stage. My level of hatred for the man now is immense.

I actually wish this was the last episode. I need time to recover and I'm not sure I'll be ready for next week now.

K_user · 04-06-2013 01:46PM

NiallMH93 wrote: »

Two more names added to Arya's death list anyway.

Arya's list - henceforth known as "The Bible"

kunst nugget · 04-06-2013 01:48PM

squonk wrote: »

I actually wish this was the last episode. I need time to recover and I'm not sure I'll be ready for next week now.

Some herbal teas and a CD of whale noises should have you sorted out by next week.

04-06-2013 01:50PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I must have missed the bit where someone said "Lord Bailish sends his regards"...

They play Rains of Castamere and Lanister regards are given; what do you want; a neon sign flashing "Tywin's behind this!!!"?

Like I said - Tywin is the obvious choice, but there are plenty of others who benefit from the Starks downfall, and whom also benefit from pinning it on the Lannisters.

I presume it is all strings being pulled by Tywin, but there are suggestions there might be more to it than that.

Last episode Stannis named Robb Stark as a usurper in the burning of the Leeches, this may not be purely symbolic.

--Kaiser-- · 04-06-2013 01:50PM

I am surprised that people are surprised that more characters were killed off in this episode. Ned Stark, who was seemingly the main character of the series was killed off early on. You should know by now that no one is safe. Frankly, the way Martin does away with characters is a breath of fresh air to someone who has read a lot of fantasy

Handsome Bob · 04-06-2013 01:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't get that image of some guy calmly walking over to a seated and pregnant Talisa before stabbing her repeatedly in the stomach. Brutal and visceral. Now that the Starks are practically all eliminated who will Mr Martin pick on next?

Well, not eliminated. But unfortunately Snow is the only one right now who can make a difference given the rest of them are too young. Sansa and Rickon perhaps will not have much to offer, but I think Arya and Bran will.

K_user · 04-06-2013 01:55PM

squonk wrote: »

I thought Dany's story this week was weak. The battle was very undramatic. I'm hoping the new guy they've met loses his head like his friends - I like Ser Jorah! He's put in the work so far...

Exactly as I said. Dany's city take over was very weak, considering the large build up to it.

Unfortunately for Ser Jorah, things just aren't going his way. He was Dany's only real friend for a long time. He got very used to being her crutch. But now she is developing as a "Queen". This means pushing people away and taking advice from many. While using the skills of those around her for best effect.

Loving watching Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan interact.

squonk wrote: »

I actually wish this was the last episode. I need time to recover and I'm not sure I'll be ready for next week now.

It felt like a last episode - so much happened

The Corinthian · 04-06-2013 02:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume it is all strings being pulled by Tywin, but there are suggestions there might be more to it than that.

What suggestions? I'm asking because I'd be tempted to think so too, but if I ask myself why, the reality is just that I'd like there to be.

My feeling of what happened is this:

Bolton didn't like how the war was going and had come to the conclusion that Rob was politically naieve and screwing up all over the place. So he swapped sides; delivered Jamie as a sign of good faith and organized (with Frey) the massacre. In return, he'll be forgiven his previous association and gain gold and probably Stark lands/titles will be passed onto the Bolton family (after all the Starks are all but extinct and have lost their seat of power). Machiavellian expediency.

Frey probably didn't like how the war was going either, but he probably wanted to get even with Rob over the broken oath to marry one of his daughters. Opportunism and revenge.

Last episode Stannis named Robb Stark as a usurper in the burning of the Leeches, this may not be purely symbolic.

Or given the increasing role of magic in the series, maybe more. Let's see what happens to the other two 'usurpers' - if another one bites the dust, the third is sure to follow.

chasmcb · 04-06-2013 02:16PM

On a side-note, was glad to see the Direwolves finally earn their crust by attacking the wildlings, though even then it was only via Bran getting into their heads. They have been pretty darn wussy for wolves up to now. Jon Snow has got duffed up a few times and his wolf was never anywhere nearby to help out -off skulking in the undergrowth the big furry spoofer lol.

04-06-2013 02:25PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

What suggestions? I'm asking because I'd be tempted to think so too, but if I ask myself why, the reality is just that I'd like there to be.

My feeling of what happened is this:

Bolton didn't like how the war was going and had come to the conclusion that Rob was politically naieve and screwing up all over the place. So he swapped sides; delivered Jamie as a sign of good faith and organized (with Frey) the massacre. In return, he'll be forgiven his previous association and gain gold and probably Stark lands/titles will be passed onto the Bolton family (after all the Starks are all but extinct and have lost their seat of power). Machiavellian expediency.

Frey probably didn't like how the war was going either, but he probably wanted to get even with Rob over the broken oath to marry one of his daughters. Opportunism and revenge.

Or given the increasing role of magic in the series, maybe more. Let's see what happens to the other two 'usurpers' - if another one bites the dust, the third is sure to follow.

I dunno - I think Tywin is smart and quite the bad ass, but I also think he has shown a number of weaknesses:

1. Doesn't seem to see Daenarys coming at all (could have just been placating Jeoffrey).
2. Only for Tyrion you would have to imagine Kings Landing would have fallen to Stannis.
3. Up until last night he was losing most if not every battle.

The Lannisters were very clearly implicated and you would imagine Tywin is the one to benefit most from the slaughter of the Starks, but I have a niggling feeling there is more to it.

Bacchus · 04-06-2013 02:25PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I am surprised that people are surprised that more characters were killed off in this episode. Ned Stark, who was seemingly the main character of the series was killed off early on. You should know by now that no one is safe. Frankly, the way Martin does away with characters is a breath of fresh air to someone who has read a lot of fantasy

The show has actually lulled us into a false sense of security since then though with regards to the major characters. Since Ned's death, has any other major character been killed in such a shock manor? Sure, lots of minor characters come and go but the major ones? Tyrion had a scare in Season 2, but survived. Jamie lost a hand but is still going. Theon wishes he was dead but isn't. Renly and Jeor Mormont were probably the biggest shock deaths since Ned and neither were as big a character than Rob or Cat. So, I do feel a certain "security" has developed with regards to the major characters. This obviously has totally rocked that. It's great

The Corinthian · 04-06-2013 02:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

1. Doesn't seem to see Daenarys coming at all (could have just been placating Jeoffrey).

I think he argues at one point that she's a World away with dragons the size of cats - so I can see his point; he's got more immediate priorities.

2. Only for Tyrion you would have to imagine Kings Landing would have fallen to Stannis.

That at one point he had to rely upon luck or someone else is more an inevitability than a weakness.

3. Up until last night he was losing most if not every battle.

Phyrric losses; seems to have been his strategy since the end of season 1. In reality they were winning the war.

The Lannisters were very clearly implicated and you would imagine Tywin is the one to benefit most from the slaughter of the Starks, but I have a niggling feeling there is more to it.

I understand, but do you have an actual reason for this 'feeling'? You might well be simply over-thinking things.

K_user · 04-06-2013 02:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno - I think Tywin is smart and quite the bad ass, but I also think he has shown a number of weaknesses:

1. Doesn't seem to see Daenarys coming at all (could have just been placating Jeoffrey).
2. Only for Tyrion you would have to imagine Kings Landing would have fallen to Stannis.
3. Up until last night he was losing most if not every battle.

The Lannisters were very clearly implicated and you would imagine Tywin is the one to benefit most from the slaughter of the Starks, but I have a niggling feeling there is more to it.

In all fairness, no one sees Dany coming, yet...

1) Why would the most powerful Lord in the land be worried about a Girl a thousand miles away? He's aware of her Dragons, nothing a good sharp shooter couldn't handle. He might be aware of her army, but at the moment they are along way from KL.

2) That is what makes Tywin such a brilliant politician. It was Tyrion who held the sea and the gates, while it was the Tyrells that broke Stannis's remaining army, but it was Tywin that got the credit.

3) Its true that he had lost a few battles, but he did manage to win the war. And that is all that is important. With the Throne in his care, all the major houses in line and his opponents dead, who cares if he lost a river, or field, along the way?

04-06-2013 02:54PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think he argues at one point that she's a World away with dragons the size of cats - so I can see his point; he's got more immediate priorities.

That at one point he had to rely upon luck or someone else is more an inevitability than a weakness.

Phyrric losses; seems to have been his strategy since the end of season 1. In reality they were winning the war.

I understand, but do you have an actual reason for this 'feeling'? You might well be simply over-thinking things.

I might well be over thinking things.

I think Bolton hadn't planned on finding Jamie Lannister, so I think the fact that he sends him straight back means that something was already going on there between the two.

Jamie however was fairly mis treated by Boltons men so I would wonder was him being sent back more to create a line of communication. As Bolton left for Frey's at the end of this episode it struck me as unusual from a continuity point of view, given that Bolton would have been heavily in league with the Lannisters at this stage if they were going to annihilate the Starks.

Personally I think it was more Bolton / Frey that are behind it, and the guy who got up to Pee and *maybe* the chap that got married are also in on it, too convenient that they both were out of the room like that for my liking.

These things and Mellisandre's leech thing about the Userpers have set off my spider senses a bit.

Probably over thinking but I was talking to my wife about it last night and she thought there were a few loose ends too.

--Kaiser-- · 04-06-2013 02:55PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think he argues at one point that she's a World away with dragons the size of cats - so I can see his point; he's got more immediate priorities.

I could be wrong, but I think Tywin was referring the last dragon (before the events of the story) who was the size of a cat and not near as big as the ones a few hundred years back. The magic has seemed to have gone out of the world and dragons with them. However, magic seems to be coming back (white walkers, wargs, Lady Melisandre, Dondarrion's resurrection etc...)

04-06-2013 02:56PM

K_user wrote: »

In all fairness, no one sees Dany coming, yet...

2) That is what makes Tywin should a brilliant politician. It was Tyrion who held the sea and the gates, while it was the Tyrells that broke Stannis's remaining army, but it was Tywin that got the credit.

The point I was making here is that what Tyrion did was a fluke, Tywin couldn't have factored that into his thinking - ergo you would have to think that Tywin was going to lose King's Landing only for ingenuity that was hidden from him?

K_user · 04-06-2013 03:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The point I was making here is that what Tyrion did was a fluke, Tywin couldn't have factored that into his thinking - ergo you would have to think that Tywin was going to lose King's Landing only for ingenuity that was hidden from him?

Sometimes all it takes is good timing to win a war.

Tywin left the battle with Rob and bolted back to KL, he did this knowing that Stannis was on the way. At some point in between a bargain was struck with the Tyrells, on where to be, and how to proceed.

Its said that the best way to win a war is to have the fewest losses. In that sense Tywin is having everyone else do his fighting for him. Even the Rob situation was resolved using the Freys and the Boltons.

goz83 · 04-06-2013 03:22PM

Traumatised by a TV SHOW!!! :eek:

It was my birthday yesterday and I was looking forward to this episode but it left me traumatised. Only other time I was disturbed by something (not real) on TV was in Saving Private Ryan. The stabbing scene.

http://youtu.be/uW9Q1cm_Tnw?t=25s

K_user · 04-06-2013 03:32PM

We all feel that way!

desertcircus · 04-06-2013 03:35PM

Bran's transformation into the most dangerous character on the show was very neatly delivered. He's now extraordinarily dangerous, able to possess human bodies. The wedding seems to have distracted from this, but while everyone else is in a knife fight, Bran now has a machine gun.

K_user · 04-06-2013 03:40PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Bran's transformation into the most dangerous character on the show was very neatly delivered. He's now extraordinarily dangerous, able to possess human bodies. The wedding seems to have distracted from this, but while everyone else is in a knife fight, Bran now has a machine gun.

The horror out weighed the mystery. Bran's thing was just "magic", yet to be fully explored. I'd imagine that alot of people might think that Hordor might be far easier to control than even the wolves...

Kiwi_knock · 04-06-2013 03:44PM

No idea on the geography of the region but is there any chance that Bran and Sam will run into each other?

Yakuza · 04-06-2013 03:44PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

They've just been listing 'who is in the episode' on the credits since season 1, only exception being Sean Bean who was still first in the list for S1E10.

I'm pretty sure he was in the "Previously on Game of Thones" bit, so qualifies as an appearance

The wife has only read Book 1, I'm in the middle of Book 4 (AFFC). When "it" happened, she gave me an awful box on the arm..."You knew this was going to happen and didn't tell me". I should have recorded it

. Best. Episode. Ever.

Season 3 Episode 9: Have NOT read the books/BEWARE SPOILERS MOD NOTE POST #1

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