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Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE
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RossFixxxed wrote: »If something I say looks dopey, it probaby is!
But that's just it RossFixxxed, there are no "dopey" opinions, only people's different perspectives, and we should welcome more people into the discussion and encourage them to express their opinions, not dismiss them with "you know naaawtheeeng" type posts, telling them they are ignorant etc. That, to me, is what stifles discussion, is what gets it swept under the carpet, is actively discouraging people from talking about it.
Just because they don't have the language doesn't mean they should be discouraged from expressing their opinion, and maybe as the discussion goes on, they might pick up on things that resonate with them, however off the wall we might think the opinion is, the important thing is that now somebody else has the language to express that they feel the same way, thereby decreasing their feelings of isolation and exclusion.
The rest of your post I completely agree with btw, and I've met some clanger counsellors in my time who cannot leave their own personal bias outside the clinic door on their way in, but that's a personality clash more than anything and is easily dealt with sometimes, and then more times this is why I say as difficult and as hopeless as it may seem sometimes to find a professional who understands your mental state and is willing to put themselves in your shoes; when you actually do, it's well worth the waiting and the thousands of euro spent because you can't put a value on a person's mental health.
You're right too about the fact that things are moving too slowly, but when even the people charged with taking responsibility for the issue are too bogged down in playing the blame game and are entrenched in bureaucratic procedures and financial mismanagement, is it any wonder that still seven years later we have little or no movement on the issue-
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/mental-health-fund-cut-to-offset-hse-deficit-1.526327
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/half-of-new-mental-health-posts-unfilled-1.1255399
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mental-health-services-need-long-overdue-cultural-and-structural-revamp-1.1396559
At least the one thing we can be grateful to Donal for is that he has done more in seven weeks to get people motivated to talk about these issues and get involved in understanding them, than successive nest featherers in Dail Eireann who are charged with the responsibility of looking after this country, have done in seven YEARS.
The problem isn't a lack of resources, support or financial assistance. The problem is approaching the issue of suicide and mental health with the wrong attitude.0 -
I have no intention of getting involved in this debate again
There's not much point in me making the effort and taking the time to reply to your misguided opinion based on your compromised perspective then, is there?
Thanks for letting us know at least that you have no intention of getting involved in the discussion again, saves me having to think about how we could reach an understanding.
And it IS a discussion, not a debate. A discussion- no "sides", and unlike a debate, a discussion accomodates ALL opinions, as long as they are put across in a civil fashion.0 -
There's not much point in me making the effort and taking the time to reply to your misguided opinion based on your compromised perspective then, is there?
Thanks for letting us know at least that you have no intention of getting involved in the discussion again, saves me having to think about how we could reach an understanding.
Well, what's the point? I've already wasted quite a bit of my life going round and round in circles with you on this. Your condescending statement above says it all, really. You want people to 'make the effort' to 'convince you' of something you clearly don't think is real without you budging an inch or making any sort of effort to understand it yourself. I have a 'compromised perspective' while your view of the world is the 'right one'. Very telling. Very.
Your attitude is really bizarre, as if you think you're doing me some sort of favour by trying to understand my illness. Plenty of people have told you what it's like to be depressed. How many more hoops should we jump through? What more do you expect? Why do you keep needling and needling and complaining that people say 'you just don't understand' after you've proven that you're not interested in understanding?
If someone was in pain with terminal cancer and you asked them how it felt, they might describe it and tell you how their illness has changed their world view and you still might not be able to comprehend the amount of pain they were in or why they thought the way they did, unless you'd been in that situation yourself. Would you then say to the cancer sufferer that their pain can't be that bad and tell them they should articulate it better if they expect you to understand? If they then got a bit ratty with you for throwing their explanation back in their face and expecting them to keep justifying the pain they were in until you understood, would you tell them you had no sympathy for them and that they were just being a big crybaby?0 -
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I can understand the negativity surrounding what he said, but at the same time not all suicides occur due to depression or mental illness. It can't be denied that what he has said HAS made a huge difference in making people discuss their thoughts and look for help. In my opinion what he has done is brilliant, and I really think it will have saved lives. http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-wonderful-and-lasting-legacy-of-brave-donal-walsh-29276410.html0
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I think it was disgraceful to give a terminally ill teenager, a national platform to enable him to castigate people who feel suicidal. I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute and frankly it's disturbing that it was allowed to happen and that it was not only encouraged but celebrated. No surprise that the church demonstrated it's usual christian charity and understanding by virutally canonising him for his opinions.
I'll be hammered for this but I'm going to say it anyway, the guy was a stroppy teenager who had his 15 minutes of fame because he was dying. He didn't use that time to make any helpful contribution to people suffering from depression. If he hadn't been terminally ill he would have received national criticism but then again if he hadn't been dying nobody would have given a crap what he thought.0 -
Pumpkinseeds wrote: »I think it was disgraceful to give a terminally ill teenager, a national platform to enable him to castigate people who feel suicidal. I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute and frankly it's disturbing that it was allowed to happen and that it was not only encouraged but celebrated. No surprise that the church demonstrated it's usual christian charity and understanding by virutally canonising him for his opinions.
I'll be hammered for this but I'm going to say it anyway, the guy was a stroppy teenager who had his 15 minutes of fame because he was dying. He didn't use that time to make any helpful contribution to people suffering from depression. If he hadn't been terminally ill he would have received national criticism but then again if he hadn't been dying nobody would have given a crap what he thought.
Have to agree with most of what you said, however if anything comes out of it it will be some awareness and hopefully something setup for people who are suicidal.0 -
Pumpkinseeds wrote: »I think it was disgraceful to give a terminally ill teenager, a national platform to enable him to castigate people who feel suicidal. I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute and frankly it's disturbing that it was allowed to happen and that it was not only encouraged but celebrated. No surprise that the church demonstrated it's usual christian charity and understanding by virutally canonising him for his opinions.
I'll be hammered for this but I'm going to say it anyway, the guy was a stroppy teenager who had his 15 minutes of fame because he was dying. He didn't use that time to make any helpful contribution to people suffering from depression. If he hadn't been terminally ill he would have received national criticism but then again if he hadn't been dying nobody would have given a crap what he thought.
Ah, now, that's a bit harsh. I didn't agree at all with what he said, but I think his heart was in the right place and I don't think you can get too angry with a terminally ill teenager for feeling the way he did. The issue was that he was given a platform.
Interestingly, most of the people I know in IRL and on Facebook do not agree with what he said. That was a massive surprise for me.0 -
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And it IS a discussion, not a debate. A discussion- no "sides", and unlike a debate, a discussion accomodates ALL opinions, as long as they are put across in a civil fashion.
For someone who isn't treating this thread as a debate, you do seem to be using some brutally under-handed fallacies to discount the arguments you don't agree with.There's not much point in me making the effort and taking the time to reply to your misguided opinion based on your compromised perspective then, is there?
That's a dirty dig to throw at someone in a "discussion".0 -
Insect Overlord wrote: »For someone who isn't treating this thread as a debate, you do seem to be using some brutally under-handed fallacies to discount the arguments you don't agree with.
Hand on heart IO I'm not trying to be any way underhanded or come off as abrasive. It's just I really AM trying to get an understanding of other people's perspectives on suicide and mental illness but even as I'm trying to keep a cool head about it, replies like Izzy's saying I have no understanding of mental illness just because they disagree with my perspective just set me off, when I'm trying to keep my personal experience out of the discussion because I don't think it'll add anything new to the discussion. I'm trying to remain as objective as possible and I know I'm treading a fine line between objective and abrasive. It's absolutely not intended to be abrasive and that's why I left the discussion for a while to go away and cool off.That's a dirty dig to throw at someone in a "discussion".
You're right IO and I'll apologise for that Izzy, I think there's more a personality clash going on there as we're clearly both very passionate about the issues involved- I'm trying to remain objective and put my views across in as rational a manner as possible and off the cuff barbs like the above don't paint me in the best light. It was just when a person picks up on something I say and comments on it and then says but they have no further interest in the discussion. I thought "then don't bother picking me up on something if you're not willing to engage, and if you're not willing to engage but just jut in with a fly by post, you won't get much of a hearing from me".
I take no great joy in discussing these issues either, but I know it's a discussion that's necessary, so when someone says they've "wasted enough time" on me, I don't consider any of my time having been involved in this discussion "wasted" and I've learned a lot from the thread so far, so when someone else says their time has been "wasted" and they're telling me I'm making no attempt to understand and I'm not listening- yes, that sort of dismissive talk will get my back up and can make me say things I don't mean, and then I have to walk away and cool down before I really let loose the full force of my anger and frustration at being so grossly misrepresented just for the sake of petty point scoring like this is just an academic debate for some. I try to be considerate of where other posters are coming from, is it too much to expect the same in return or are posters just more interested in petty point scoring and who's "right" and who's "wrong"?
What's that going to achieve for anybody?0 -
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Czarcasm, I've been posting on this forum and other forums for years and only a handful of times have I realised that a discussion was utterly futile and declared that I had no longer had an interest in it. This was one of those times. This thread is over 6 weeks old. I clicked back onto it out of curiosity and I see the SAME points being made by the same posters over and over again. For someone who's not into point scoring, you sure seem to love doing it. I tried my best to describe what it's like to live with depression, which was very difficult for me, and you just kept shooting me down. Even resorting to personal insults.
You keep saying you're here to learn, but you really could have fooled me. After this poor chap died, several of my real life friends asked me what I thought about what he'd said. They previously would have been of the 'sure, would ya just get it together, he has it much worse' mindset, but after I explained a bit about why his message could be damaging to a depressed person, they told me they'd gained a whole new perspective about something they hadn't really thought about before. The thing is, they weren't trying to shoot me down the whole time, insisting that his message could also be helpful. What use is that? I already know that many people reckon his message was a good one. I can see why they think that. I'm trying to explain why it wasn't, for many people. And I know that's hard to grasp if you've never been depressed yourself. I don't know what you're trying to do here, but it isn't learn.0 -
I feel very sorry for what that young boy went through but like others on here, I feel what he said about suicide was extremely insensitive, yeah he wanted not to have to die and wanted to live but I thought of the phrase 'Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in his/her shoes'. Just because he had a terminal illness did not give him the right to judge others who were going through an illness of their own.
To say that people who commit suicide are leaving their family a mess that will never be cleaned up is further guilt tripping people contemplating suicide who feel their families would be better off with out them. That will not encourage people to seek help it will only cause them to further retreat into their shells, feeling shame at their thoughts. These people need to be fully encouraged to be open about their feelings and not to be judged about what they may be considering.
Until you're in that mindset, no one can judge. I can't judge, I've never been in that situation but I can imagine it's horrible. The newspapers are all talking about his message and how he's this saint almost. What he had to suffer through was horrible but people die from cancer everyday, just because he was given a platform to air his judgmental views makes him different makes him this 'inspirational' person.
It'll further make people say 'Sure you don't have a terminal illness like that boy, it's all in your head, get over it, be thankful you're alive.' Which is the completely wrong way to speak to someone going through something like that. I wish someone from sucide awareness would come out to the papers and say 'Will I think it's very hard to say that to a suicidal person. What they need is.....we shouldn't make people shameful about this etc. The Catholic Church seem to be jumping on this as well which I think is wrong but typical of them writing about him talking to the priest and all, he clearly got a strong message from the Catholic Church over suicide.
/Rant over.:mad: Needed to vent. I was arguing with my mother and brother a few days ago over this. Just felt strongly about it.:(0 -
I kept hearing this boy's name on the news and the radio, facebook etc...
I had seen a youtube clip of the boy's interview, and had the same opinions as the majority on here (felt compassion for the boy, but was angered at RTE, and worried about the stigma in society) but I hadn't remembered what his name was.
So I kept on hearing his name mentioned, and meant to Google to see who he was, but I forgot. Then I heard they were doing the Haka at his funeral, and so I came to the logical conclusion that it was some famous rugby player.
As with most things to do with clebs and sport etc... I just zoned out and didn't pay attention.
When I realised eventually that no, it wasn't some famous person, it was this boy - I was, and still am quite shocked!
Shocked that there has been SO much media attention, and SO many people banging on about how sad it is and what a courageous, lovely boy with such a great message blahdiblahdiblah - Seriously wtf is wrong with people?!
I mean yes, of COURSE it's a dreadfully sad thing to happen, and the odd 'rip' or 'condolences to his family' might be understandable, but I just cannot fathom why the entire country is treating this delusional boy as if he were some sort of a god. Talk about idolising the dead like.
The whole thing is just very odd.
And on one hand, I do agree that it is a good thing that this topic has been brought up as it should give rise to educating the ignorant, but on the other hand, I'm just worried that it will just feed the ignorance.
Unfortunately, the demographics of AH do not accurately represent the general population and there is a long battle ahead to educate the masses.0 -
flutterflye wrote: »
When I realised eventually that no, it wasn't some famous person, it was this boy - I was, and still am quite shocked!
Shocked that there has been SO much media attention, and SO many people banging on about how sad it is and what a courageous, lovely boy with such a great message blahdiblahdiblah - Seriously wtf is wrong with people?!
I mean yes, of COURSE it's a dreadfully sad thing to happen, and the odd 'rip' or 'condolences to his family' might be understandable, but I just cannot fathom why the entire country is treating this delusional boy as if he were some sort of a god. Talk about idolising the dead like.
The whole thing is just very odd.
And on one hand, I do agree that it is a good thing that this topic has been brought up as it should give rise to educating the ignorant, but on the other hand, I'm just worried that it will just feed the ignorance.
Unfortunately, the demographics of AH do not accurately represent the general population and there is a long battle ahead to educate the masses.
Thank you.
I thought I was the only "crazy" person thinking the same thing.0 -
Pre-amble-
I think Donal's heart was in the right place and I think his situation was desperately sad but...
I'm sorry, but I really don't think there could be a worse person to speak on the very serious issue of suicide than a terminally-ill child. The fact that he was given a public platform to broadcast his ill-informed (however well-intentioned) opinions, was just irresponsible.
There is enough stigma about mental health issues in this country. Nobody who is suicidally depressed is going to thank a sick 16-year-old for pointing out to them that life could worse and there is always someone to talk to. I'm sorry, but this chap did not have the right to to say that other people ( about whose individual circumstances he knows nothing about) are selfish, etc for taking their own life.
Naivety combined with a terminal illness does not make for someone who is a good position to advise someone about how they should be grateful for life. People speak about what he said as though he was on some sort of mission to stop suicide, but to me, it read more as though he was bitter / angry at the hand he been dealt, and was so was expressing his frustration at those who are depressed /suicidal. As understandable as that is, suicidal people do not need the bitterness of a dying teenager directed at them.
I've first-hand experience of suicide and even I would not be so arrogant as to be assume I have the right to 'angry' at people who decide to take their own life.
Tbh, I'm far more angry at those in the media/ society at large who lauded Donal for his opinion. They can now claim that they are openly discussing mental health issues when really they're just helping to propagate the same crap that's been doing rounds in this country for years- '' Just cop on and talk to somebody and stop being so selfish." Meanwhile, a few more people will die because mental health services are so dire here.
For people who have no idea what depression is like I would recommend reading ''Shoot the Damn Dog'' by Sally Brampton. You might then understand how what this lad was saying was completely unhelpful- even counter-productive- to someone who is suicidal.
RIP Donal.0 -
Pumpkinseeds wrote: »I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute
If nothing else he got people talking..ALOT of people which is probably more than most of us here have done so yeah, id say thats a fair contributionAh, now, that's a bit harsh. I didn't agree at all with what he said, but I think his heart was in the right place
Interestingly, most of the people I know in IRL and on Facebook do not agree with what he said. That was a massive surprise for me.
100% agreed. the heart was in the right place which i think counts for alot. granted what he said didnt come across good, but like ive said above hes raised more awareness than anything else despite a poor choice of wordsGeneral General wrote: »Privileged access to reality, have you? At least, will you concede that there might be some as yet unknown mechanism that effects some kind of lock on our apparent free will, even temporarily, in some possible world..?
Im aware of the implications of depression and its effect on free will thanks, what im referring to is the fact that universally there is a choice yes illnesses cloud the mind and compromise free will etc but the choice still exsists even if the person doesn't see it0 -
A lot of people here seen to be making excuses for suicide and suicidal people. As a matter of fact, you DO leave a horrendous mess behind when you commit suicide. You DO often destroy a number of lives.
I can certainly understand why someone who had a terminal illness would have and want to express the sentiments this child had. He desperately wants to live and sees someone else who seems to throw that away.
Depression is of course a serious illness. I'm not denying that. And people who are suicidal are in a very dark and empty place from which they see no return. But instead of everyone saying this kid should walk in the shoes of someone with depression, why not try to see it from his point of view. I think if many of us found ourselves in the same situation, we would feel the same as he did.
Finally, and slightly unrelated, I find that the media romanticize suicide. They should focus on the pain left behind rather that the glorifying the person, their legacy and the act.0 -
Seriously those who have no idea about suicide and depression (evident by the posters above), you need to watch this lecture.Depression is the worst disease you can get - Dr. Robert Sapolsky
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I've neither mistaken or twisted your words. Completely ignoring everything in my post and regurgitating your opinion as fact, does not actually make it a fact.You've either (A) Mistaken what ive said or (B) Twisted my words
In any event ill repeat them for you
Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.
Take a read of what you've posted and what ive underlined, have a think about it and then you'll see what I said was the person may feel like they have no choice as this is their perception, However factually this is not the case0 -
Jesus wept. What next. Will we be blaming the families left behind after someone commits suicide as being too selfish and self absorbed to notice that their loved one was struggling so badly they took their own life? Of course not as that would be ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the idea that people are making excuses for suicidal people. Shock horror, people are showing compassion, understanding and empathy.A lot of people here seen to be making excuses for suicide and suicidal people. As a matter of fact, you DO leave a horrendous mess behind when you commit suicide. You DO often destroy a number of lives.
I can certainly understand why someone who had a terminal illness would have and want to express the sentiments this child had. He desperately wants to live and sees someone else who seems to throw that away.
Depression is of course a serious illness. I'm not denying that. And people who are suicidal are in a very dark and empty place from which they see no return. But instead of everyone saying this kid should walk in the shoes of someone with depression, why not try to see it from his point of view. I think if many of us found ourselves in the same situation, we would feel the same as he did.
Finally, and slightly unrelated, I find that the media romanticize suicide. They should focus on the pain left behind rather that the glorifying the person, their legacy and the act.
And yes, I have had my experience with depression.0 -
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I've neither mistaken or twisted your words. Completely ignoring everything in my post and regurgitating your opinion as fact, does not actually make it a fact.
Thats not an opinion its a clear fact and to make it very simple for you . if a person doesnt choose to commit suicide will it happen anyway?? thats a rhetorical question by the way...Jesus wept. What next. Will we be blaming the families left behind after someone commits suicide as being too selfish and self absorbed to notice that their loved one was struggling so badly they took their own life? Of course not as that would be ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the idea that people are making excuses for suicidal people. Shock horror, people are showing compassion, understanding and empathy.
People have made excuses in this thread. its quite black and white really taking your own life isn't normal,rational,necessary or in any way or form acceptable.0 -
People have made excuses in this thread. its quite black and white really taking your own life isn't normal,rational,necessary or in any way or form acceptable.
I have to disagree with you there pone, does this woman strike you as abnormal, irrational-
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/marie-fleming-appeal-on-assisted-suicide-rejected-1.1376352
She feels it is necessary, but it's only our own personal prejudices and moral values that say suicide and euthanasia isn't acceptable.
I know where you're coming from, but it's incorrect to say that the decision to take one's own life is always an irrational or abnormal one. It just doesn't square with your moral values is all.0 -
Im aware of the implications of depression and its effect on free will thanks, what im referring to is the fact that universally there is a choice yes illnesses cloud the mind and compromise free will etc but the choice still exsists even if the person doesn't see it
Now the 'fact' is that 'universally there is a choice'?
When you say 'universally there is a choice', what do you mean?
It seems that you are saying that it's a choice that exists even if the person who could make the choice cannot see that choice (& thus cannot make that choice, as much as I can tell)..
How is that a choice?0 -
Jesus wept. What next. Will we be blaming the families left behind after someone commits suicide as being too selfish and self absorbed to notice that their loved one was struggling so badly they took their own life? Of course not as that would be ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the idea that people are making excuses for suicidal people. Shock horror, people are showing compassion, understanding and empathy.
Blaming families? No. I never said anything like that. It's the families left behind that I have most sympathy for.0 -
Yes because it will certainly help someone suffering suicidal thoughts to talk about what they're going through by constantly reminding them that their thoughts are evil and selfish and the mess they will leave behind for their families if they got through with it!! I mean my God would you tell an anorexic to get over themselves because their causing their family immense pain and suffering? These people need to be listened to without judgment and without the fear that the thoughts they are having are wrong and selfish. And no one glorifies someone who commits suicide, I'm not sure where you got that notion! People in that mindset feel there is no other way out! If anything it highlights are lack of resources to help people going through this mental illness! You may have had depression but you may not have had it so severe that you had those thoughts! Again, never judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes!A lot of people here seen to be making excuses for suicide and suicidal people. As a matter of fact, you DO leave a horrendous mess behind when you commit suicide. You DO often destroy a number of lives.
I can certainly understand why someone who had a terminal illness would have and want to express the sentiments this child had. He desperately wants to live and sees someone else who seems to throw that away.
Depression is of course a serious illness. I'm not denying that. And people who are suicidal are in a very dark and empty place from which they see no return. But instead of everyone saying this kid should walk in the shoes of someone with depression, why not try to see it from his point of view. I think if many of us found ourselves in the same situation, we would feel the same as he did.
Finally, and slightly unrelated, I find that the media romanticize suicide. They should focus on the pain left behind rather that the glorifying the person, their legacy and the act.
And yes, I have had my experience with depression.0 -
General General wrote: »Now the 'fact' is that 'universally there is a choice'?
When you say 'universally there is a choice', what do you mean?
It seems that you are saying that it's a choice that exists even if the person who could make the choice cannot see that choice (& thus cannot make that choice, as much as I can tell)..
How is that a choice?
The simplest way i can explain it to you is this. If a person on the verge of commiting suicide stood before you and asked you if they had any other choice but to end their life. Would you be in agreement with them that it is there only choice? Or would you explain to them that they have a choice not to do so? Thats another rhetorical question as because you an clearly see the person has another option of course you'll tell them.I have to disagree with you there pone, does this woman strike you as abnormal, irrational-
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/marie-fleming-appeal-on-assisted-suicide-rejected-1.1376352
She feels it is necessary, but it's only our own personal prejudices and moral values that say suicide and euthanasia isn't acceptable.
I know where you're coming from, but it's incorrect to say that the decision to take one's own life is always an irrational or abnormal one. It just doesn't square with your moral values is all.
Ill agree to disagree with you on this as i can see the angle you are coming from.
But you have brought an excellent article before me for analysis, thank you
I Would be inclined to say that this person who is clearly well educated is setting a far worse example for mentally ill people than Donal Walsh ever did. Shes here basically fighting a case to gain the right to commit suicide. What a great example to set. I wonder how many people who condemned Donal for his words would be in agreement that this is potentially severely damaging as if it ever passed it would create the idea that if a person is suffering enough they have a right to commit suicide, or even worse be assisted in it.Precious flower wrote: »Yes because it will certainly help someone suffering suicidal thoughts to talk about what they're going through by constantly reminding them that their thoughts are evil and selfish and the mess they will leave behind for their families if they got through with it!! I mean my God would you tell an anorexic to get over themselves because their causing their family immense pain and suffering? These people need to be listened to without judgment and without the fear that the thoughts they are having are wrong and selfish. And no one glorifies someone who commits suicide, I'm not sure where you got that notion! People in that mindset feel there is no other way out! If anything it highlights are lack of resources to help people going through this mental illness! You may have had depression but you may not have had it so severe that you had those thoughts! Again, never judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes!
He never said glorified he said people are making excuses, and he is correct if you scan back you will suicide defended in the thread0 -
The simplest way i can explain it to you is this. If a person on the verge of commiting suicide stood before you and asked you if they had any other choice but to end their life. Would you be in agreement with them that it is there only choice? Or would you explain to them that they have a choice not to do so? Thats another rhetorical question as because you an clearly see the person has another option of course you'll tell them.
Ill agree to disagree with you on this as i can see the angle you are coming from.
But you have brought an excellent article before me for analysis, thank you
I Would be inclined to say that this person who is clearly well educated is setting a far worse example for mentally ill people than Donal Walsh ever did. Shes here basically fighting a case to gain the right to commit suicide. What a great example to set. I wonder how many people who condemned Donal for his words would be in agreement that this is potentially severely damaging as if it ever passed it would create the idea that if a person is suffering enough they have a right to commit suicide, or even worse be assisted in it.
He never said glorified he said people are making excuses, and he is correct if you scan back you will suicide defended in the thread
You believe a person should be forced to live regardless of how much pain they are suffering and regardless of how severely incapacitated they are?
Again you need to watch the video posted above you clearly have no idea the relationship between suicide and depression. Its nearly an hour long but at least you will have an understanding of it rather than shouting some ill informed opinion.0 -
You believe a person should be forced to live regardless of how much pain they are suffering and regardless of how severely incapacitated they are?
Again you need to watch the video posted above you clearly have no idea the relationship between suicide and depression. Its nearly an hour long but at least you will have an understanding of it rather than shouting some ill informed opinion.
Forced to live?? everyone has a time to die, what gives anyone the right to do so before then?
Are of the opinion that life is just some thing that you can just decide thats it ive had enough is it?
Ive watched that video, and probably long before you did too, along with plenty of others not to mention a significant amount of reading, so know that im pretty well up on the subject thanks, Yes i sympathize with them, but not enough to agree that to take their life is in anyway ok0 -
Precious flower wrote: »Yes because it will certainly help someone suffering suicidal thoughts to talk about what they're going through by constantly reminding them that their thoughts are evil and selfish and the mess they will leave behind for their families if they got through with it!!
While I agree with you PF that guilt tripping somebody who has suicidal thoughts serves no purpose, it doesn't hurt to try to get them to see that there are people that care about them and would be affected by their decision to take their own life.I mean my God would you tell an anorexic to get over themselves because their causing their family immense pain and suffering?
This is why it's hard to have a discussion about mental health, simply because of the vast spectrum and degrees of the disorders and diseases involved. Suicide is not a disorder. Depression is a disorder. Anorexia is a disease. Lumping them all in together under the umbrella term "mental heath", only serves to further cloud the issues involved or murky the waters so to speak.These people need to be listened to without judgment and without the fear that the thoughts they are having are wrong and selfish.
I completely agree with this, but then I'd put forward the opinion that everybody should be able to communicate their thoughts without judgement, fear or intimidation. Unfortunately human nature being what it is, doesn't often allow for that to happen.And no one glorifies someone who commits suicide, I'm not sure where you got that notion!
I wouldn't be too sure about that PF. There are subcultures in society that not only glorify those who to take their own lives, but they celebrate suicide and their lives revolve around the idea. The portrayal and idolisation of Kurt Cobain as a martyr and anti-establishment, anti-hero in popular culture and celebrity suicide in general is a prime example of those who glorify the idea of suicide.People in that mindset feel there is no other way out! If anything it highlights are lack of resources to help people going through this mental illness!
Can we separate out the issue of suicide from depression? Too many posters here are of the opinion that they must go hand in hand. They don't. A person can have suicidal thoughts and tendencies without ever suffering from depression, or a person can suffer from depression without ever having suicidal thoughts or tendencies. It's a hard thing to do, because of the amount of people that believe the two are intrinsically linked. But unless a person is willing to separate the two, they will never gain a better understanding of either.You may have had depression but you may not have had it so severe that you had those thoughts! Again, never judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes!
Read over that paragraph again. Now read the first bit. Now read the bolded bit. You have just done what you are telling another poster not to do, when you yourself haven't as you put it- walked a mile in their shoes. My own take on that cliche is forget about walking a mile in their shoes, it can't be done. Tie yourself to them and think of it as a three legged race in which you have to coordinate your efforts and develop an understanding and a synergy, when one of you is about to trip, the other person senses it and offsets their balance to help you regain yours and keep you up. If you fall, you fall together. Help each other get back up. Get more people to link up and all support each other, and all together, you'll walk a hell of a lot more than a mile. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. The better you're able to pace yourself- the farther you'll go, and then you're all winners.0 -
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The simplest way i can explain it to you is this. If a person on the verge of commiting suicide stood before you and asked you if they had any other choice but to end their life. Would you be in agreement with them that it is there only choice? Or would you explain to them that they have a choice not to do so? Thats another rhetorical question as because you an clearly see the person has another option of course you'll tell them.
I wouldn't argue with them nor explain to them that they HAD a choice, if they said they didn't. I wouldn't see that as a constructive approach.
& if I did decide, for whatever reasons, that confronting the person about their having a choice was the best approach... well, I'd be ignoring possibilities that I know exist &, I suppose, I'd be relying on the person not having the will or powers of expression to argue back. I'm not sure why I would do this..
After all, as I've said elsewhere in the thread, there are people out there that insist that those who die of many physical illnesses do so as they choose not to drink the potion, hold the crystals, or chant the names of whoever or whatever. I wouldn't agree that such-&-such a person chose to die of heart disease as they wouldn't pray to Elvis while wearing slippers fashioned from Tibetan goat-hair.
You seem to feel that there are no questions worth considering about the objective or factual existence of there being a choice open to person X... or about some person Y's access to the nature of that choice open to person X, supposing as you do that it exists.
I don't understand why someone who has clearly thought a lot about this matter (& is a third level student of a course with an element of psychology) would refuse to concede some ground on this point..
I decided not to go for any rhetorical questions, as I don't think they're in this season.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
This discussion has been closed.
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