Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

Turtwig

That's purely semantics. Many people who die of the flu will die from pneumonia but those deaths are recorded as being caused by the flu. People who die from cancer can die in a variety of ways. The person who gets HIV (when it was a death sentence) isn't going to die from the virus directly they're going to die from something minor to an uncompromised immune system. It isn't always the cancer that kills them directly it's the consequences of having the cancer in their body. It's semantics to suggest death from mental illnesses is any different.

Czarcasm

Jernal wrote: »

That's purely semantics. Many people who die of the flu will die from pneumonia but those deaths are recorded as being caused by the flu. People who die from cancer can die in a variety of ways. The person who gets HIV (when it was a death sentence) isn't going to die from the virus directly they're going to die from something minor to an uncompromised immune system. It isn't always the cancer that kills them directly it's the consequences of having the cancer in their body. It's semantics to suggest death from mental illnesses is any different.

But Jernal the situations you describe above are the realities. The spectrum of mental disorders and diseases is such a broad spectrum that while psychosis and depression won't kill you and is treatable, the original diagnosis that caused them- syphilis untreated- will kill you.

If caught early enough though, you can treat the original symptoms before you reach cascade effect.

The only ones playing semantics are those equating mental diseases and disorders with physical diseases and disorders. The two require two totally different approaches to diagnosis and treatment and to try and equate them in any way is purely disingenuous at best, and is as bad as the OP in this thread trying to say that Donal's campaign about raising young people's awareness that there are alternatives to taking their own life, was in any way related to mental health issues.

Donal himself made the point on the Saturday Night Show that he was not addressing people suffering from mental illnesses, he was addressing young people who were choosing to take their own life.

None of us here know of his experience with mental illnesses and disorders beyond that, but as this thread has certainly shown, people twice his age haven't shown much maturity in dismissing an opinion that wasn't aimed at them in the first place, let alone dismissing Donal's opinion because of his age.

wolfpawnat

When I watched his interview that night not too long ago I knew he was ill, but I didn't realise he had so little time left. Poor young lad, so brave. RIP and I really hope his family are being supported through this terrible time. Whatever else anyone says, he did what he felt was right, and he was so brave to do so.

RIP Donal.

Turtwig

Czarcasm wrote: »

But Jernal the situations you describe above are the realities. The spectrum of mental disorders and diseases is such a broad spectrum that while psychosis and depression won't kill you and is treatable, the original diagnosis that caused them- syphilis untreated- will kill you.

If caught early enough though, you can treat the original symptoms before you reach cascade effect.

The only ones playing semantics are those equating mental diseases and disorders with physical diseases and disorders. The two require two totally different approaches to diagnosis and treatment and to try and equate them in any way is purely disingenuous at best, and is as bad as the OP in this thread trying to say that Donal's campaign about raising young people's awareness that there are alternatives to taking their own life, was in any way related to mental health issues.

Donal himself made the point on the Saturday Night Show that he was not addressing people suffering from mental illnesses, he was addressing young people who were choosing to take their own life.

None of us here know of his experience with mental illnesses and disorders beyond that, but as this thread has certainly shown, people twice his age haven't shown much maturity in dismissing an opinion that wasn't aimed at them in the first place, let alone dismissing Donal's opinion because of his age.

I've already stated in this thread that I'm against comparing levels of suffering for any ailment. Nobody is equating anything here. We're just making the point that terminal mental illness are every bit as real as terminal cancer. How they're diagnosed and treated is of course very different, but the threat to life is just as real and the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one.

If someone get's a severe life threatening psychotic illness they're going to die if you don't treat that illness. If the illness isn't treatable, it's terminal. That's all there's to it.

There is growing evidence that Suicidal Ideation is a disease of its own. Brain scans, epigenetic markers and blood tests seems to be indicating this. The hope is that someday we'll be able to recognise a person's risk to SI by identifying biological markers in their body. Hopefully by then people will have come to realisation that suicide isn't a decision made by everyone. Hopefully.

BrianG23

When your living just for the sake of living, life ain't too good. Long term depression is a different ball game than being sad, try knowing you are sad for nothing, but you simply can't stop the unhappiness no matter what you try. I can honestly see where suicide folk are coming from when they consider doing it.

sadie06

Czarcasm wrote: »

Donal himself made the point on the Saturday Night Show that he was not addressing people suffering from mental illnesses, he was addressing young people who were choosing to take their own life.

None of us here know of his experience with mental illnesses and disorders beyond that, but as this thread has certainly shown, people twice his age haven't shown much maturity in dismissing an opinion that wasn't aimed at them in the first place, let alone dismissing Donal's opinion because of his age.

I haven't read any of the rest of this thread, but I would argue that anyone, young or old, that chooses to take their own life is at that very moment suffering unimaginable mental anguish, and is, at that moment, quite ill.


There is no doubt that Donal showed enormous courage in voicing his opinion, but just this morning I witnessed his sentiments being used to pass judgement, and add further stigma to the families of those who have taken their own life.


A parish priest decided to devote his whole sermon to praising the 'inspiration' provided by Donal Walsh and contrasted his 'brave battle' with the selfishness shown by those who 'do away with themselves'. This was all said at a family mass full of young children. We know of one family who would have left feeling extremely hurt and upset.


Education, not judgement, is key to tackling the issue of teenage suicide. I strongly feel that the celebration of Donal's opinion on the matter has taken us back several steps in this regard. He was entitled to express his opinion, it was the media seizing upon it that has done the most damage.

jigglypuffstuff

Jernal wrote: »

the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one

But in reality it is a choice, isnt it?

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Czarcasm

Jernal wrote: »

I've already stated in this thread that I'm against comparing levels of suffering for any ailment. Nobody is equating anything here. We're just making the point that terminal mental illness are every bit as real as terminal cancer. How they're diagnosed and treated is of course very different, but the threat to life is just as real and the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one.

And therein lies the semantics- not all mental illnesses are terminal, not all cancers are terminal. We need to be more specific about exactly what we're talking about here or else you end up with what's being done in this thread- equating depression with lung cancer. The two couldn't be more world's apart.

If someone get's a severe life threatening psychotic illness they're going to die if you don't treat that illness. If the illness isn't treatable, it's terminal. That's all there's to it.

More semantics and goalpost moving to back up your assertions. I understand where you're coming from, but we need to agree on one single definitive disorder or disease that is terminal if we are to come to any sort of understanding. By your definition- the most common severe life threatening psychotic illness is anorexia, and that's treatable. All psychological illness is treatable, all physical illnesses aren't, though I wouldn't for a minute suggest that's all there is to it and I'd welcome being corrected on that so that the information is out there not just for myself but for other people reading this thread who would like to be informed also.

There is growing evidence that Suicidal Ideation is a disease of its own. Brain scans, epigenetic markers and blood tests seems to be indicating this. The hope is that someday we'll be able to recognise a person's risk to SI by identifying biological markers in their body. Hopefully by then people will have come to realisation that suicide isn't a decision made by everyone. Hopefully.

I would say that hopefully such research would give us a better understanding of SI and the causes of SI. We could spend all day arguing over whether it actually IS recognised as a psychological mental disorder/disease, or is it merely an ideology, one in which more and more young people are buying into because they feel that there IS no hope.

If we were to recognise SI as a psychological disorder/disease, should we not then treat it the same way we would any other psychological disorder/disease- find the root cause and work from there, as opposed to painting over the surface with short term solutions that only help people "to cope" in the short term.

Taking one's own life IMO is a decision, and often when we talk about suicide in relation to depression, the person is often depressed before they are suicidal, but there isn't much thought given to people who are SI without ever suffering from depression. The numbers for SI in young people are rising rapidly as without hope, they become apathetic, they place no value on life, and therefore see no reason to continue trying to live.

It is these young people that Donal was aiming his message at, not people suffering from mental illness.

Paddy Cow

pone2012 wrote: »

But in reality it is a choice, isnt it?

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Would you say that someone suffering from paranoid delusions and who acts upon them, had the choice not to do so? There are many mental illness that make people act in a way that rational people would never chose to to. What about people with bipolar? Do they chose to behave erratically when going through a manic stage or is the illness so overwhelming that thought and choice go out the window? What about people with depression. They know they are depressed so are they chosing to be lethargic and unmotivated?

I think what people need to understand about mental illness is that it takes away the ability to think rationally or make certain choices that healthy people take for granted.

Czarcasm

sadie06 wrote: »

I haven't read any of the rest of this thread, but I would argue that anyone, young or old, that chooses to take their own life is at that very moment suffering unimaginable mental anguish, and is, at that moment, quite ill.

Sadie you missed the link I posted earlier in this thread to a story in the Independent detailing the story of Marie Fleming, a 59 year old UCD lecturer who lost her battle in the high court recently to have the right to end her own life. She is not mentally ill.

If we're going to talk about doing away with stigma's surrounding suicide (and not get bogged down and sidetracked by talking about mental illness), then we need to realise, whether we're uncomfortable with the idea or not, that for some people, the act of taking their own life is a perfectly rational decision.

The rest of your post I completely agree with, especially re education and understanding of the issues surrounding young people choosing to take their own lives.

Lightbulb Sun

Jernal wrote: »

I've already stated in this thread that I'm against comparing levels of suffering for any ailment. Nobody is equating anything here. We're just making the point that terminal mental illness are every bit as real as terminal cancer. How they're diagnosed and treated is of course very different, but the threat to life is just as real and the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one.

If someone get's a severe life threatening psychotic illness they're going to die if you don't treat that illness. If the illness isn't treatable, it's terminal. That's all there's to it.

There is growing evidence that Suicidal Ideation is a disease of its own. Brain scans, epigenetic markers and blood tests seems to be indicating this. The hope is that someday we'll be able to recognise a person's risk to SI by identifying biological markers in their body. Hopefully by then people will have come to realisation that suicide isn't a decision made by everyone. Hopefully.

I don't necessarily agree here. I don't think you can compare mental illness and physical in terms of them being terminal. If a cancer is terminal, it is what it is and the person is guaranteed to die from it. Whereas with mental illness I don't honestly think a doctor can look at a patient and say "you have a terminal illness" They can't set it in stone like they could if someone had untreatable cancer/AIDs etc.

Psychosis is not an unequivocally terminal illness. Sufferers of it are more likely to make suicide attempts than the average person. It doesn't mean that having it guarantees a terminal outcome though.

Czarcasm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I think what people need to understand about mental illness is that it takes away the ability to think rationally or make certain choices that healthy people take for granted.

I think Paddy that what people who think the above need to understand is that mental illness won't kill you and IS treatable, but suicide and SI is a different issue that requires a different approach to diagnosis and treatment.

jigglypuffstuff

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Would you say that someone suffering from paranoid delusions and who acts upon them, had the choice not to do so? There are many mental illness that make people act in a way that rational people would never chose to to. What about people with bipolar? Do they chose to behave erratically when going through a manic stage or is the illness so overwhelming that thought and choice go out the window? What about people with depression. They know they are depressed so are they chosing to be lethargic and unmotivated?

I think what people need to understand about mental illness is that it takes away the ability to think rationally or make certain choices that healthy people take for granted.

You've either (A) Mistaken what ive said or (B) Twisted my words

In any event ill repeat them for you

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Take a read of what you've posted and what ive underlined, have a think about it and then you'll see what I said was the person may feel like they have no choice as this is their perception, However factually this is not the case

General General

pone2012 wrote: »

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Take a read of what you've posted and what ive underlined, have a think about it and then you'll see what I said was the person may feel like they have no choice as this is their perception, However factually this is not the case

That last bit (which I've highlighted in bold) is down to your perception of what is factually the case & what isn't factually the case, yeah?

Czarcasm

General General wrote: »

That last bit (which I've highlighted in bold) is down to your perception of what is factually the case & what isn't factually the case, yeah?

Would you care to explain for the rest of us General who some in this thread are not as au fait with mental illness as they are, how someone who is suffering from mental illness, are not experiencing compromised perception since you seem to think this is not factually the case?

This is what happens when people are far more concerned with "being right" as opposed to making any attempt to foster understanding of the issues involved- you disappear down your own rabbit hole; because following your logic, goes back to my original point that it is a perfectly rational decision then for a person to take their own life based on your assertion that a mentally ill person's perception of reality is not compromised, and going on this thread alone so far, apparently that's "wrong".

General General

Czarcasm wrote: »

Would you care to explain for the rest of us General who some in this thread are not as au fait with mental illness as they are, how someone who is suffering from mental illness, are not experiencing compromised perception since you seem to think this is not factually the case?

Not 100% sure what your question means. However, the idea of there being a choice 'factually' (in the case of someone suffering from mental illness, or indeed otherwise) is not based on anything other than belief, as I see it.

Czarcasm

General General wrote: »

Not 100% sure what your question means. However, the idea of there being a choice 'factually' (in the case of someone suffering from mental illness, or indeed otherwise) is not based on anything other than belief, as I see it.

Sorry about that General, posting on touch and it can be a finnicky fcuk at the worst of times, I was only halfway through my post, edited above, when it sent.

When you introduce "beliefs" into it, that to me is a poor attempt at denying the fact that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised, which is exactly WHY we try and treat people suffering from mental illnesses, rather than leave them to their own devices which can sometimes end in them choosing to take their own life because they see no other avenue to end the constant apathy or suffering.

General General

Czarcasm wrote: »

This is what happens when people are far more concerned with "being right" as opposed to making any attempt to foster understanding of the issues involved- you disappear down your own rabbit hole; because following your logic, goes back to my original point that it is a perfectly rational decision then for a person to take their own life based on your assertion that a mentally ill person's perception of reality is not compromised, and going on this thread alone so far, apparently that's "wrong".

What I was attempting to point out was that the idea that we, all of us, all of the time, enjoy/possess free choice regarding our actions is not much more than a belief, as I see it.. & that in certain mental states, including experiences of mental illness (although, not excluding other states), I doubt anyone can say that the person possesses free choice as a 'fact'.

General General

Czarcasm wrote: »

When you introduce "beliefs" into it, that to me is a poor attempt at denying the fact that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised, which is exactly WHY we try and treat people suffering from mental illnesses, rather than leave them to their own devices which can sometimes end in them choosing to take their own life because they see no other avenue to end the constant apathy or suffering.

I think we are a lot closer to the same position here than it might look. I see no reason to doubt that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised. I would go so far as to say, as I've said earlier in this thread, that we may yet discover a completely biochemical (or similarly materialist) mechanism that completely (or so substantially as to mean the same) removes free choice over thought.

My point, again, is that it's actually those who argue that the suicidal person 'believes' that they have no choice (rather than actually having no choice) that are laboring under the illusion of their own 'belief' (which is something like; every person always has free choice on the matter of suicide, which I think is not the case).

jigglypuffstuff

General General wrote: »

I think we are a lot closer to the same position here than it might look. I see no reason to doubt that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised. I would go so far as to say, as I've said earlier in this thread, that we may yet discover a completely biochemical (or similarly materialist) mechanism that completely (or so substantially as to mean the same) removes free choice over thought.

My point, again, is that it's actually those who argue that the suicidal person 'believes' that they have no choice (rather than actually having no choice) that are laboring under the illusion of their own 'belief' (which is something like; every person always has free choice on the matter of suicide, which I think is not the case).

Although they perceive they have no choice, that cannot take away from the reality that they do, regardless of how compromised ones perception is.

Czarcasm

General General wrote: »

I think we are a lot closer to the same position here than it might look. I see no reason to doubt that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised. I would go so far as to say, as I've said earlier in this thread, that we may yet discover a completely biochemical (or similarly materialist) mechanism that completely (or so substantially as to mean the same) removes free choice over thought.

My point, again, is that it's actually those who argue that the suicidal person 'believes' that they have no choice (rather than actually having no choice) that are laboring under the illusion of their own 'belief' (which is something like; every person always has free choice on the matter of suicide, which I think is not the case).

Ahh right, I get where you're coming from now, we are indeed on the same page. What we're both saying is that a mentally ill persons perception removes their free will and they are therefore unable to see anything, only suicide as a means to end their suffering.

If they are treated however, their perception can change, enabling them to see the alternatives, thereby giving them back their free will to make a choice.

General General

pone2012 wrote: »

Although they perceive they have no choice, that cannot take away from the reality that they do, regardless of how compromised ones perception is.

Privileged access to reality, have you? At least, will you concede that there might be some as yet unknown mechanism that effects some kind of lock on our apparent free will, even temporarily, in some possible world..?

Brendan Flowers

R.I.P Donal. I can't begin to imagine what he was going through in his final few months. Thoughts are with his family.

I've noticed a lot of negativity in this thread towards Donal's original article. But what if it made just one person who was suffering from depression reconsider committing suicide? Its not impossible to think that due to all the discussions surrounding it that one person who was at their lowest stopped and thought about just how precious life. If Donal's article even helped save one life then shouldn't it be considered a huge success?

RossFixxxed

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

R.I.P Donal. I can't begin to imagine what he was going through in his final few months. Thoughts are with his family.

I've noticed a lot of negativity in this thread towards Donal's original article. But what if it made just one person who was suffering from depression reconsider committing suicide? Its not impossible to think that due to all the discussions surrounding it that one person who was at their lowest stopped and thought about just how precious life. If Donal's article even helped save one life then shouldn't it be considered a huge success?

Yes, and I've said that myself earlier as have others. The point being that it isn't that simple though. If he saves one and stigmatises 100 more then where are we? Or 100 decide against it and 100 feel even more isolated and decide to do it? It's not black and white like that and even those examples I've given are stupid.

This is a deeply complicated issue and I am incredibly wary of anyone who claims to have the answer to it. Donal's points are good as the grounds for an open discussion, but it cannot be over simplified into a few soundbites.

We need all sides on this. We need it out in the open not locked away in shame. We need people to know help is there.

We dont' need the 'sure that kid had cancer cop on to yourself' attitude we've had over here for so long. That's not working at all.

I don't have the answers, but it can't be swept under the carpet forever surely? No one person can speak for everyone on this. People's experience of mental illness and suicidial ideation etc are vastly different. The one thing that I can see as being common is the complete lack of support for these people and an ever present stigmatisation and isolation of people with these issues. Whilst simultaneously 1 in 7 (I think that's the figure) adults in this country are on anxiety / stress medications.

Czarcasm

RossFixxxed this isn't specifically aimed at you. I'm just throwing it out there to open the discussion a bit more, using your post as a springboard if you don't mind.

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Yes, and I've said that myself earlier as have others. The point being that it isn't that simple though. If he saves one and stigmatises 100 more then where are we? Or 100 decide against it and 100 feel even more isolated and decide to do it? It's not black and white like that and even those examples I've given are stupid.

I don't think the examples you've given are stupid at all RossFixxxed, you certainly make a better point than a lot of posters here who have only seen things from their own perspective and lambasted a 16 year old on a public forum. The anonymity of the Internet makes it all too easy for them to do that, but when one person, however misguided we might think he was, stands up and at least TRIES to publicise the issue of suicide amongst young people, he was effectively scorned and derided as not knowing what he was talking about by posters here, none of whom were willing to challenge his opinions publicly.

It's been THIS THREAD if anything, that has further stigmatised suicide and mental illness with the amount of overbearing negativity and any positive perspective being dismissed and shouted down as "they don't know what they're talking about either". That's what makes it very hard for anyone to talk about suicide or mental illness and so they internalise their misguided or misinformed opinion because they are too intimidated to express it, shouted down and dismissed by the naysayer elitists favorite phrase- "the amount of ignorance in this thread".

Well as Sadie quite rightly pointed out- EDUCATE people then, don't just dismiss them out of hand because they don't know. The very fact they are engaging with the discussion is an indication that at least they WANT to know, and they WANT to understand. Telling people "you wouldn't understand" is a horrible and stinking attitude, and THAT'S the attitude that fosters the stigma. How can people be expected to understand if a person never even makes any attempt to engage with them on their level?

This is a deeply complicated issue and I am incredibly wary of anyone who claims to have the answer to it. Donal's points are good as the grounds for an open discussion, but it cannot be over simplified into a few soundbites.

There are many separate issues being coddled into one here though- suicide and mental illness do not go hand in hand. I've said it time and again that a perfectly rational person can choose to take their own life, and General General made a good point that a mentally ill person can have their free will taken away from them due to their compromised perception, and see themselves as having no option but to cure their apathy and suffering by making what they perceive is the rational decision to take their own life.

Donal's points were not related to mental illness, they were related to suicidal ideation in young people. Somehow (The Independent newspaper) mental illness got thrown in there in the piece and the OP latched on to it and ran with it. The fault for this misdirection lies with the Editor of the Independent, not with Donal, whose message all along has been about suicide among young people, not mental illness. Unfortunately on Boards there seems to be a significant army of posters that will seek to wedge in mental illness issues from the comfort of their armchair, their confirmation bias leading them to see mental issues everywhere. I've seen it here in AH and I've seen it in other forums on Boards. Even Odysseus who has identified as being a qualified psychiatrist knows better than to diagnose somebody over the Internet, which is why they don't try and do it, but that doesn't stop the army of armchair psychiatrists here on Boards from trying to diagnose mental illness, as you say RossFixxxed- in a couple of soundbites.

We need all sides on this. We need it out in the open not locked away in shame. We need people to know help is there.

This thread has shown that while some people CAN come together and discuss the issue in a rational fashion, they are drowned out by the extremists introducing their personal bias and dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with them instead of even making any attempt to understand them or let them develop their point of view and as myself and General General discovered- we're actually on the same page once we were able to keep cool heads and discuss the issue in a rational fashion. We were just looking at it from different perspectives, and both of us learned something.

The reason people suffering from SI and mental illness don't talk about it can be any number of reasons, but in my opinion, the biggest reason they won't talk about it is not shame- it's that they simply don't have the language to express their opinions, their thoughts or their feelings, and then they lack the information, and a thread like this that COULD have as you said RossFixxxed been a good starting point for a discussion, quickly turned into the extremists with their elitist attitudes drowning everybody out who disagreed with them. The discussion became one sided, and when a discussion becomes one sided, then it's not a discussion any more- it's an exercise in validation.

We dont' need the 'sure that kid had cancer cop on to yourself' attitude we've had over here for so long. That's not working at all.

Did anybody actually come out and say that though? And I don't mean "well not in so many words but...", I mean those exact words. I don't think they did, and I've read back over this thread a couple of times in the last few weeks and even more in the last few days, trying to pick up on was there anything I missed that could move the discussion forward.

I don't have the answers, but it can't be swept under the carpet forever surely? No one person can speak for everyone on this. People's experience of mental illness and suicidial ideation etc are vastly different. The one thing that I can see as being common is the complete lack of support for these people and an ever present stigmatisation and isolation of people with these issues. Whilst simultaneously 1 in 7 (I think that's the figure) adults in this country are on anxiety / stress medications.

How many times do the numerous links and resources have to be posted though? Already in this thread, already in this FORUM, and in many, many other forums just on Boards alone, there have been copious links to numerous resources posted. There really IS something for everybody, so the excuses about the lack of resources and support just doesn't wash.

People who choose not to avail of these resources in the early identified stages of stress and a feeling of being unable to cope or feeling like they have no hope so do not feel any motivation to continue to live are the people who are to blame for the stigma surrounding suicide and mental health issues. You'll notice there I bolded the "people who choose", because in the early stages of mental illness, people DO have that choice to go and talk to their GP who is a medical professional and will support and direct them towards the proper resources to help them recover, a hell of a lot more scientifically sound than the average joe soap reading the symptoms off wikipedia and self diagnosing because they don't "trust" their GP. Find a different one then! There's fcuking plenty of them!

I just happen to have been incredibly lucky that I have a great relationship with my GP, a relationship and trust that has built up over 15 years. You don't just run to the GP that'll be quickest to shove you back out the door with a prescription for lexapro or whatever. You need to do your damn homework and it takes time to find the right GP, but when you do, the right GP won't just be interested in what's going on in your wallet, they'll be interested in what's going on in your mind, and how best to help you cope with that.

We need to stop quoting soundbite statistics in discussions too like the "one in four" and the "one in seven", etc. These statistics mean nothing to the individual, and often times we tend to forget about that in these discussions that we are talking about people's lives here. The discussion isn't just academic or intellectual, philosophical, etc, it goes to the very heart of humanity and how we interact with each other and out environment and our upbringing, and none of these issues and perspectives should be ignored or shouted down just because they don't appear on any fancy graphs or bunkum statistics pulled from the ársehole of nowhere and out of context by the average joe soap looking to back up their misguided wikipedia informed opinion.

GalwayGuy2

Hmm quick question. Did he actually take a stand against adolescent suicides? Not to talk ill of the dead, but I thought the was just giving out :S

RossFixxxed

Just to clear a few things I've said up:

Ehhh I should point out the statistic I gave was meant in the sarcastic way that you are addressing (hence my comment on sound bytes)! I had added more, but it was a bit TOO cynical even for me!

Yes, I have actually heard people say the "he had it worse, these whiners need to cop on" line from people IRL, not necessarily on here. It is infuriating. I've also heard the 'if he eat fruit and walked a bit he'd be fine' referring to someone with severe bipolar. Sigh.

Being mentally unwell does not necessarily mean you are suicidal. I did kind of lump them together on a second reading and that was very remiss of me, and I apologise if I was giving that impression out! I was more referring to those considering suicide due to mental health issues, rather than all people with issues are suicidal if you get me?

When I say there is no resources for people, perhaps that is glib. But there are EXTREMELY long waiting lists out there. Many people are struggling to make ends meet as it is and waiting for six months for a consultation after the GP is not ideal by a long shot. I know what you mean, there is a degree of "you can lead a horse to water" in these situations, but the support isn't great and I have encountered at least 3 professionals who said that a change of scenery would do me good, maybe a good job. The 4th professional was the one who helped. Yes you need to change doctors etc, but I had to fork over thousands of euro to get all this sorted out, and that is not possible for everyone! There is help out there for sure, but I'm not happy at all how mental health issues are dealt with in this country at all.

Happy to be a springboard, just saying this again: I sure as hell ain't any authority on these issues, and I would be very suspiciouis of anyone claimng to be. I'm just throwing my own, uneducated, view out there for others to speak on ala Czargasm! If something I say looks dopey, it probaby is!

General General

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Czargasm!

Durrty.

RossFixxxed

General General wrote: »

Durrty.

OMG! I always read it that way!

Oh wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot! Sorry Czar, you're sarcastic not orgasmic I'm afraid! Demotion imho!

IzzyWizzy

I have no intention of getting involved in this debate again, but...

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's been THIS THREAD if anything, that has further stigmatised suicide and mental illness with the amount of overbearing negativity and any positive perspective being dismissed and shouted down as "they don't know what they're talking about either". That's what makes it very hard for anyone to talk about suicide or mental illness and so they internalise their misguided or misinformed opinion because they are too intimidated to express it, shouted down and dismissed by the naysayer elitists favorite phrase- "the amount of ignorance in this thread".

Well as Sadie quite rightly pointed out- EDUCATE people then, don't just dismiss them out of hand because they don't know. The very fact they are engaging with the discussion is an indication that at least they WANT to know, and they WANT to understand. Telling people "you wouldn't understand" is a horrible and stinking attitude, and THAT'S the attitude that fosters the stigma. How can people be expected to understand if a person never even makes any attempt to engage with them on their level?

PLENTY of people on this thread have been very open and honest about their experiences with mental illness and suicidal thoughts, but you and others keep shooting them down. You keep saying you want to understand, but from what I can see, you don't. You keep pushing people to justify their feelings/emotions and trying to convince them that they're not valid. That's why people keep telling you that you don't understand. It's because you don't. You're not actually 'listening' or taking in anything anyone has posted about mental illness. You're looking at everything from YOUR perspective. I'm always happy to explain how a depressed person may think, but in your case, it was like talking to a brick wall. There's only so many times you can make the same points before you give up.