Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

FouxDaFaFa · 16-05-2013 11:53PM

elainers wrote: »

I'm a very irregular poster but felt I had to highlight this. It's an ad from the Independent.ie website which appears to invite you to take part in a poll on rights but actually when you click you are told that you have already voted. It doesn't say what exactly you voted for bar "for life". Has anybody else seen these and does anybody know who is running this? I'm disgusted in the underhanded tactics being used here!

I posted saying I thought this was underhanded and that I would see if I could tell which pro-life group was doing this.

I looked into it and this poll is run by the paper itself, the Irish Independent. It feeds into their "we are defined by the choices we make" campaign. I clicked on the ad, and this page appeared. I wasn't given a chance to vote, yet my vote was "counted".

The ad they use for the poll shows a heavily pregnant woman smoking.

lazygal · 17-05-2013 08:31AM

http://www.thejournal.ie/live-abortion-hearings-913015-May2013/

The journal.ie are covering proceedings live in case anyone wants to follow.

LittleBook · 17-05-2013 08:52AM

One of the huge problems for the pro-choice campaign is that they can't fund and roll out a group of women who say they now regret having abortions and even if they could, there is no political clout to get to brief Oireachtas members like this group can while a group like Termination for Medical Reasons Ireland don't get a look in. Even women who have had abortion for a reason most people would find "acceptable" aren't being heard. And women who've had abortions as a result of a criminal act or simply out of choice dare not speak up for fear of the inevitable backlash and just the downright invasion of their privacy.

As deeply depressing as this is, at the end of the day it is the politicians who will get their way and they are almost completely stacked against abortion. I'm really starting to believe the only way we will ever have any kind of abortion regime in Ireland is if we have another referendum of some kind.

I found this on the IFPA website, deeply moving.

The Irish Journey

The Irish Journey- Women's Stories of Abortion (2000)

A ground breaking book detailing authentic first hand accounts, by Irish women, of their experiences of abortion.

This book is dedicated to the women who so bravely contributed their stories of abortion and to all women who experience crisis pregnancy.

The women in this book were approached, and contributed, through a variety of sources. For most of these women, the telling and placing of their story into the public domain was extremely difficult. Names and other identifying details have been changed to protect the women’s anonymity.

The stories are laid out chronologically, beginning with Marie’s harrowing account of her backstreet abortion in the '70s, and ending with Kate’s story, in 1999, thankfully legal and safe [in the UK].

rainbow kirby · 17-05-2013 10:22AM

Hearings have started today - liveblog here. Preparing to have a gigantic headache from the amount of stupid emanating from various middle aged male FF/FG TD's pontificating.

Lyaiera · 17-05-2013 10:33AM

meeeeh wrote: »

A TD that responds in non generic way has either too much money to employ staff or too much time. Either way I wouldn't trust them as a TD. Their actions are way more important than nicely worded reply.

All TDs have a budget to employ an constituency office manager. They aren't involved in policy matters, but in dealing with constituents. Answering e-mails and dealing with people walking in is their remit. Most will have generic e-mails written up and will take the time to personalise it if the letter sent to them addresses issues not fully answered in the e-mail. The office manager usually has the authority to write letters on behalf of the TD when they know their policy stance and can contact them about other issues.

Truley · 17-05-2013 10:59AM

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

I posted saying I thought this was underhanded and that I would see if I could tell which pro-life group was doing this.

I looked into it and this poll is run by the paper itself, the Irish Independent. It feeds into their "we are defined by the choices we make" campaign. I clicked on the ad, and this page appeared. I wasn't given a chance to vote, yet my vote was "counted".

The ad they use for the poll shows a heavily pregnant woman smoking.

I noticed those ads plastered all over the printed edition too. The Indo is a very anti-abortion paper.

rainbow kirby · 17-05-2013 11:03AM

Truley wrote: »

I noticed those ads plastered all over the printed edition too. The Indo is a very anti-abortion paper.

It's stuff like this (also the constant David Quinn articles and the lack of a compact edition of the Times) which makes me ignore all the Irish papers and just grab a Guardian when I want a dead tree newspaper...

FouxDaFaFa · 17-05-2013 11:04AM

A small group of pro-life protestors gathered outside Alan Shatter's home this morning. I can't get over the nerve of them. I think no matter how much of a beef you have with a politician, seeking out their personal residence is out of line.

wonderfulname · 17-05-2013 12:07PM

Truley wrote: »

I noticed those ads plastered all over the printed edition too. The Indo is a very anti-abortion paper.

I have todays Indo opened in front of me to their abortion coverage, two articles on the Archbishop, one written by the editor of 'The Irish Catholic', and another article entitled 'Officials have no information on suicides by expectant mothers' (in which they reference the ongoing hearings, naming only one expert, Caroline Simons) split down the middle by a blurb relating to the Communion Mass walkout...

Morag · 17-05-2013 12:10PM

LittleBook wrote: »

One of the huge problems for the pro-choice campaign is that they can't fund and roll out a group of women who say they now regret having abortions and even if they could, there is no political clout to get to brief Oireachtas members like this group can while a group like Termination for Medical Reasons Ireland don't get a look in. Even women who have had abortion for a reason most people would find "acceptable" aren't being heard. And women who've had abortions as a result of a criminal act or simply out of choice dare not speak up for fear of the inevitable backlash and just the downright invasion of their privacy.

As deeply depressing as this is, at the end of the day it is the politicians who will get their way and they are almost completely stacked against abortion. I'm really starting to believe the only way we will ever have any kind of abortion regime in Ireland is if we have another referendum of some kind.

I found this on the IFPA website, deeply moving.

The Irish Journey

It is very difficult but we are slowly getting women to come forward.

http://shareyourabortionstory.tumblr.com/ has been set up and is being run by people I trust, I've submitted my own story.

wolfpawnat · 17-05-2013 02:54PM

Truley wrote: »

I noticed those ads plastered all over the printed edition too. The Indo is a very anti-abortion paper.

Have you seen their recent ad campaign? That picture is being taken out of context. The ad is about our choices in Ireland in general.

On one side, a badge saying pro-life, the other pro-choice. One side showing the Catholic Church, the other a condom. One side showing people going to the SW office, the other showing emigration. One side showing rugby, the other GAA. One side showing a mother caring for her bump, the other smoking while pregnant. And so on.

It is trying to say there are opposing opinions. Now I hate the Indo before anyone says otherwise, but as I said, that picture is completely out of context.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

A small group of pro-life protestors gathered outside Alan Shatter's home this morning. I can't get over the nerve of them. I think no matter how much of a beef you have with a politician, seeking out their personal residence is out of line.

TBH I have little pity for that man, but it is not on a pro-life/pro-choice level that I would protest at his home. There are nutjobs on both side of this divide really, thankfully they are the small few.

meeeeh · 17-05-2013 03:19PM

Now I get it, those Indo adds are brilliant.

elainers · 17-05-2013 03:22PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Have you seen their recent ad campaign? That picture is being taken out of context. The ad is about our choices in Ireland in general.

On one side, a badge saying pro-life, the other pro-choice. One side showing the Catholic Church, the other a condom. One side showing people going to the SW office, the other showing emigration. One side showing rugby, the other GAA. One side showing a mother caring for her bump, the other smoking while pregnant. And so on.

It is trying to say there are opposing opinions. Now I hate the Indo before anyone says otherwise, but as I said, that picture is completely out of context.

On the digital edition where I found it, there was no balance in the picture and when you clicked it said something along the lines of thanks for voting for life! So I wouldn't feel it's out of context at all. I find it very duplicitous manner of getting survey feedback to be honest.

wolfpawnat · 17-05-2013 03:26PM

elainers wrote: »

On the digital edition where I found it, there was no balance in the picture and when you clicked it said something along the lines of thanks for voting for life! So I wouldn't feel it's out of context at all. I find it very duplicitous manner of getting survey feedback to be honest.

From what I have gathered, that online survey seems to very odd and should be reported to the correct third party.

But that particular picture was used in their larger ad campaign. I find their use of that particular photo for saying you voted pro-life fairly odd too. A smoking mother is hardly the picture you would expect even if you did vote pro-life

meeeeh · 17-05-2013 04:08PM

I'm pretty sure it's not a serious poll that will be used in any way outside Indo advertising campaign. It's good, it draws attention to the newspaper and their ad. The tv ad is very well thought out and I'm impressed. I'm certain it has nothing to do with abortion debate, it's just using the debate to promote the newspaper.

elainers · 17-05-2013 04:17PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's not a serious poll that will be used in any way outside Indo advertising campaign. It's good, it draws attention to the newspaper and their ad. The tv ad is very well thought out and I'm impressed. I'm certain it has nothing to do with abortion debate, it's just using the debate to promote the newspaper.

I come from a family of Indo readers and work in marketing and this only has a negative impact on me. It's underhanded and makes me question their reporting of issues which are important to all of us.

I can't see how anybody would think this tactic reflects positively on the paper. Creating controversy through imagery is one thing as it enhances awareness and creates interest. However, collecting underhanded votes where the voter is not fully informed of his/her choice and with no balanced options is a completely different scenario!

meeeeh · 17-05-2013 04:31PM

I'm a Times fan, I don't really read Indo and I studied marketing and communications but I don't work in the area. For somebody who works in marketing you are incredibly quick to conclude that the results will be used in any kind of a poll. It's advertising campaign and I'm pretty sure there are fairly strict rules separating journalistic and advertising content. Something that anybody who works in marketing should be avare of.

I'm guessing they are hoping for Hunky Dory's type of a response but without using sex. Judging by your outrage, they got it.

Lyaiera · 17-05-2013 04:35PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm a Times fan, I don't really read Indo and I studied marketing and communications but I don't work in the area. For somebody who works in marketing you are incredibly quick to conclude that the results will be used in any kind of a poll. It's advertising campaign and I'm pretty sure there are fairly strict rules separating journalistic and advertising content. Something that anybody who works in marketing should be avare of.

I'm guessing they are hoping for Hunky Dory's type of a response but without using sex. Judging by your outrage, they got it.

Giving the impression to someone that they voted for something they didn't have a choice in is downright stupidity whether it's advertising or polling. Even if they don't use the information it makes people feel disenfranchised and railroaded into something. When you click on something and it takes you to something you didn't expect it's a breach of trust and trust is literally the hardest thing to build in a marketing campaign.

meeeeh · 17-05-2013 04:43PM

Who said that no publicity is bad publicity? I mostly belong to that camp. My opinion is that the ads are well thought out and just provocative enough to get you interested. You need longer to build trust.

Lyaiera · 17-05-2013 05:14PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Who said that no publicity is bad publicity? I mostly belong to that camp. My opinion is that the ads are well thought out and just provocative enough to get you interested. You need longer to build trust.

A pretty good step in building trust is not making people mistrust you straight away.

I was following the Oireachteas hearing online via text updates but I'm pretty impressed by the debate. Most people seem to be concentrating on the legislation, a few people are asking the doctors if more is needed and only a small amount of people seem to be burying their head in the sand.

elainers · 17-05-2013 05:29PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm a Times fan, I don't really read Indo and I studied marketing and communications but I don't work in the area. For somebody who works in marketing you are incredibly quick to conclude that the results will be used in any kind of a poll. It's advertising campaign and I'm pretty sure there are fairly strict rules separating journalistic and advertising content. Something that anybody who works in marketing should be avare of.

I'm guessing they are hoping for Hunky Dory's type of a response but without using sex. Judging by your outrage, they got it.

It doesn't matter if the results are used in a poll or not. It makes no difference to the fact that as a consumer I was invited to click to vote and when I did got no options but just a message saying thanks for your vote for life (or similar).

In relation to your Hunky Dorey's comment the fact is advertising a newspaper is very different from advertising a bag of crisps where one of the key triggers to purchase is the brand being top

In comparison the indo poll shows a very strong bias and offers readers no choice in what they are voting for.

FouxDaFaFa · 17-05-2013 08:01PM

meeeeh wrote: »

For somebody who works in marketing you are incredibly quick to conclude that the results will be used in any kind of a poll. It's advertising campaign and I'm pretty sure there are fairly strict rules separating journalistic and advertising content.

Just going by their website, they published the results of a similarly conducted poll on arming Gardaí , meaning they are using it for journalistic and advertising purposes. I have no problem with them doing a poll, it's just annoying that it's either not working at all or that it's recording votes for one side when the user was never given a chance to choose.

Justin1982 · 17-05-2013 08:34PM

Personally I think the women of Ireland really need to grow a pair of balls. Seriously like, grow a pair of balls and stand up for yourselves.
Such a bunch of lilly livered surrender monkeys I never came across!

I mean like, if the women of Ireland (or at least a high enough percentage of them do) really believe that they have the right to have an abortion in Ireland then you'd really want to put up a bit of a better fight for it than you have been.

If it was guys who were affected by this then I doubt that there would be much ado about it. We would have had it sorted long ago.

It gives me a sick stomach listening to ****in psychiatrists and politicians on TV talking **** about pregnant women who are suicidal. They are just pushing their own catholic anti-abortion agenda. Every psychiatrist seems to go on each debate and say that if a woman says that she is suicidal because she is having an unplanned pregnancy then she is lying and making it up. The ****in cheek of these psychiatrists. Who the **** are they to judge that a woman is or is not suicidal when they say they are? Its complete **** talk. If a woman says she is suicidal due to pregnancy then she should be taken seriously. And if a woman says she really really doesnt want to go through with a pregnancy then she should be taken seriously also.

The fact that the women of Ireland actually put up with the anti abortion laws that exist in this country make me laugh. If the guys were faced with such stone age and sexist laws there would be war!

Really like, stop whinging about the abortion laws in this country and ranting about how your being treated like second class citizens. Get off your ass and do something about it.

People will always be walked on if they allow it to happen.

meeeeh · 17-05-2013 08:36PM

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Just going by their website, they published the results of a similarly conducted poll on arming Gardaí , meaning they are using it for journalistic and advertising purposes. I have no problem with them doing a poll, it's just annoying that it's either not working at all or that it's recording votes for one side when the user was never given a chance to choose.

Do you have a link to that. I'm too lazy to go on a computer to check and I can't find it on my mobile, so I really can't comment.

Morag · 17-05-2013 08:46PM

Justin1982 wrote: »

Personally I think the women of Ireland really need to grow a pair of balls. Seriously like, grow a pair of balls and stand up for yourselves.
Such a bunch of lilly livered surrender monkeys I never came across!

I mean like, if the women of Ireland (or at least a high enough percentage of them do) really believe that they have the right to have an abortion in Ireland then you'd really want to put up a bit of a better fight for it than you have been.

If it was guys who were affected by this then I doubt that there would be much ado about it. We would have had it sorted long ago.

It gives me a sick stomach listening to ****in psychiatrists and politicians on TV talking **** about pregnant women who are suicidal. They are just pushing their own catholic anti-abortion agenda. Every psychiatrist seems to go on each debate and say that if a woman says that she is suicidal because she is having an unplanned pregnancy then she is lying and making it up. The ****in cheek of these psychiatrists. Who the **** are they to judge that a woman is or is not suicidal when they say they are? Its complete **** talk. If a woman says she is suicidal due to pregnancy then she should be taken seriously. And if a woman says she really really doesnt want to go through with a pregnancy then she should be taken seriously also.

The fact that the women of Ireland actually put up with the anti abortion laws that exist in this country make me laugh. If the guys were faced with such stone age and sexist laws there would be war!

Really like, stop whinging about the abortion laws in this country and ranting about how your being treated like second class citizens. Get off your ass and do something about it.

People will always be walked on if they allow it to happen.

:rolleyes:

Dude seriously are you utterly unaware of the campaigning that we have been doing?

FouxDaFaFa · 17-05-2013 08:47PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Do you have a link to that. I'm too lazy to go on a computer to check and I can't find it on my mobile, so I really can't comment.

No problem. Here.

Stheno · 17-05-2013 08:52PM

nokia69 wrote: »

claiming to be pro choice, but then saying that some types of abortion should be stopped

for example a while back a feminist writing in the guardian was saying that women should not be alowed to have an abortion based on the sex of the fetus, I can understand why people would be against this, and I don't like it myself, but if you have abortion on demand then some women will make choices that we don't like

if you say you are pro choice, but only for the choices you agree with, then you are not really pro choice

And if you are pro choice up to when the foetus could be viable?

Is that not pro choice? Why chose (apart from the case of severe disability) to have an abortion after the 22-24 weeks stage?

I'm pro choice but think that there should be a gestational limit on it, as after a certain time the foetus is viable.

Thoughts?

Morag · 17-05-2013 09:06PM

Stheno wrote: »

And if you are pro choice up to when the foetus could be viable?

Is that not pro choice? Why chose (apart from the case of severe disability) to have an abortion after the 22-24 weeks stage?

I'm pro choice but think that there should be a gestational limit on it, as after a certain time the foetus is viable.

Thoughts?

I have never meet a person who is pro choice who believes in or wants abortion with no limits.

The idea that a person can not be pro choice unless they want no limits is rubbish put about by people wanting to discourage people from saying they are pro choice.

Stheno · 17-05-2013 09:08PM

Morag wrote: »

I have never meet a person who is pro choice who believes in or wants abortion with no limits.

The idea that a person can not be pro choice unless they want no limits is rubbish put about by people wanting to discourage people from saying they are pro choice.

That's the reason for my reply to the quoted poster, I can't imagine anyone (apart from the Chinese and their policies) wanting such a situation

wolfpawnat · 17-05-2013 09:15PM

Stheno wrote: »

That's the reason for my reply to the quoted poster, I can't imagine anyone (apart from the Chinese and their policies) wanting such a situation

Truthfully, I would see anyone who would want to destroy a viable foetus that can survive outside of utero (24 weeks+) as disgusting. I also do not agree with destroying a foetus solely based on gender, but I would be doubtful too many people would be like that, or at least I hope so!

I would think most people would be like minded.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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